Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

BoardsMember · 21-04-2017 9:45pm

Lemming wrote: »

BoardsMember wrote: »

Speaking for myself, I would never break a light in a car, as a cyclist I would break a light in certain circumstances.

RayCun wrote: »

If it is okay to break a red light on a bike when it is safe, why is it not okay to break a red light in a car when it is safe?

I would assume (and hope) that BoardsMember is referring to circumstances that are based on personal safety, not convenience RayCun. Such scenarios would be few and far between. But I shall cite you the Elephant & Castle in London as a glaringly obvious example. Seriously; go look at the cyclist death statistics for that junction over the last three years and why and then climb back into your box.

It would be both for convenience and safety. Again I'm not advocating it when it is for convenience, but I sleep well at night and don't have angst over breaking the law in certain circumstances. I'll give you an example: coming from greenlea road onto terenure road west on a bike. The lights are triggered by cars but not by bikes. So you can be waiting for ages until a car comes to trigger the light. This is just not fair. So if there isn't a car for several hundred metres either direction, I'll break the red light and take a right. It cannot cause anyone any danger, and it is absolutely breaking the law. I do it with clear conscience and purely for convenience.

radia · 21-04-2017 10:16pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Then you can also work on the ridiculous Irish road traffic management of giving huge breaks between reds which are there solely to facilitate red light running.

It has been suggested that we can't have amber before green (like in the UK) because of all the amber (and early red) gamblers here, who would crash if the perpendicular traffic were primed to go promptly by an amber preceding green.

However, I actually think it could cut down accidents by making people less likely to take the current approach that amber = accelerate, and red = 2-3 more. (When did that change for the majority of drivers? It used to be that amber was the point at which '2-3 more' became chancy.) If you knew the cross-traffic would be in the middle of the junction the second they had a green light, surely there's a good chance it would bring us back to the days when the majority didn't push through past amber?

Danbo! · 21-04-2017 10:28pm

Had a close one today that I probably could have avoided a little better.

End of Capel street about to cross the bridge. Traffic on the quays get the red light and I'm pushing the pedals about to go when some absent minded cyclist dawdles through the red as our lights go green. He realises a little too late and reacts by braking, even though in the middle of the junction. Thing is though, a taxi driver behind him was ploughing through too, so had to brake and awkwardly change lanes to get around him. Our light has been good and green for a while so I'm heading out into the junction (while a motorcyclist beside me is doing the whole "rev loudly and aggressively drive toward the passenger door") im fully concentrating on giving my best glare of disapproval to the taxi driver.... when all of a sudden I realise the ****er behind the taxi, another car, is also coming through and panickingly undertaking the taxi driver, right towards me.

Lessons learned - a glare will do nothing to improve the taxis manners, I should be fully concentrating on the road around me. I thought the cyclist was stupid to break the light at such a junction, the taxi driver insane, and the car behind well I just didn't expect at all. So expect the unexpected. Finally, I learnt not not get excited thinking "wait til I stick this vid on the near miss thread" and also to double check the camera is facing forward, not into the back of the caged mount recording pure black and my narration "Jesus... jaaaysus.... wait what the f**k!?"

Chuchote · 21-04-2017 10:30pm

Oh, no! Not the Steps of Rome, the first place I tasted real pizza, razor-thin supercrispy crust with meltingly sweet equally thin slices of aubergine soaked in just enough and not too much delicious cheese :eek:

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Because catching people at it is what should stop it(thought that hasn't necessarily worked with phone usage). People do it because there are no repercussions. If fines start being dished out, court appearances for not paying fine etc...that will help stop it.

It hasn't worked with phone usage because phone usage is ignored. At first, when people were caught and fined, phone usage fell away to nothing - a friend of mine was caught and became totally paranoid; even today a little of that paranoia remains

but the gardaí now ignore phone usage.

As for the close passes - stick them on YouTube. Stick them up here on the DashCam thread in the Motoring forum. When I get my camera working I'm going to be looking at crappy road surfaces, glossy manhole covers, manhole covers sitting proud of the surface on the diagonal - and people using mobile phones in their cars. Yesterday I saw a 4x4 driver leafing comprehensively through a woman's magazine at the lights, while in charge of this massive piece of machinery…

AndrewJRenko · 21-04-2017 10:39pm

Chuchote wrote: »

Oh, no! Not the Steps of Rome, the first place I tasted real pizza, razor-thin supercrispy crust with meltingly sweet equally thin slices of aubergine soaked in just enough and not too much delicious cheese :eek:

They have moved to Dundrum ROad, junction with Bird Ave - not sure if the new place is open yet.

RacoonQueen · 21-04-2017 10:48pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, it's the fear of being caught, rather than actually being caught, which stops it.

it's why you see signs warning of speed cameras. the point is to get people to slow down rather than to catch them - because catching them in a way proves you've not gotten them to slow down.

Speed camera's probably a bit different though as people can jam on as they pass and then speed up again. Red light camera is a red light camera. You've done the deed, once folk aren't hearing of people getting fined for being caught on camera breaking ambers/red they just go straight back to breaking the reds as 'normal' again.
The only way to stop it is widespread no excuses. Red means stop. End of story. Once the light has actually turned red anyone that proceeds through gets fined. There's plenty of time with amber lights for people to stop, we all know that, so there are no excuses.

Chuchote · 21-04-2017 10:56pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

There's plenty of time with amber lights for people to stop, we all know that, so there are no excuses.

I suspect that fining people for failing to indicate would also have a good effect on red light jumping and phone-staring; it would enforce a different attitude to driving.

check_six · 21-04-2017 11:14pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They have moved to Dundrum ROad, junction with Bird Ave - not sure if the new place is open yet.

My campaign is already paying dividends!

magicbastarder · 21-04-2017 11:17pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Speed camera's probably a bit different though

i probably didn't explain myself well enough.
with a red light camera, you don't want people not to know about it and get caught (which was the original premise); you want people to know about it and *not* get caught. because of compliance.

LpPepper · 21-04-2017 11:59pm

Wow.... Deliberate or a lapse of concentration?....

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1402233933167390&id=100001423892001

Chuchote · 22-04-2017 7:14am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They have moved to Dundrum ROad, junction with Bird Ave - not sure if the new place is open yet.

Must be the new cafe heaven, that area. Our local, the HX46 beside the Hospice, opened a new Taney branch a few months ago, and is coining it up there from all reports.

Kaisr Sose · 22-04-2017 10:09am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i probably didn't explain myself well enough.
with a red light camera, you don't want people not to know about it and get caught (which was the original premise); you want people to know about it and *not* get caught. because of compliance.

If the goal is to get people to slow down or stop running lights detection works both ways. Prevention by signage or prevention by learned behaviour after the fact (eg fixed penalty/points) = same outcome.

I don't really care how it happens once it happens– but it won't happen until the technology and enforcement is deployed.

CramCycle · 22-04-2017 11:49am

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

The goal is to get people to slow down or stop running lights detection works both way. Prevention by signage or prevention by learned behaviour after the fact (eg fixed penalty/points) = same outcome.

I don't really care how it happens once it happens? but it won't happen until the technology and enforcement is deployed.

I don't think the signage works, might heighten senses but like the speed camera it becomes a learned behaviour.

I feel that swift upgrading of a number of lights with no publicly known locations means that when the fines come out, a majority of people thanks to social media will stop running reds immediately. If you notify people, they learn quick enough where you can and can't do it.

Kaisr Sose · 22-04-2017 12:20pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't think the signage works, might heighten senses but like the speed camera it becomes a learned behaviour.

My post should have started with 'If'. However, I am not a fan of signage as an ultimate deterrent. In the absence of effective policing and penalties, they are not effective.

My anology on this:

If for example, somebody decides to rob a bank, they do so because they don't think they will get caught. If they knew there were Garda in there waiting, they would not do it. A sign saying 'Don't rob banks' is not going to deter opportunism. Same on the roads. People speed because they don't think it will be detected and run red lights for the same reason.

ED E · 22-04-2017 2:15pm

LpPepper wrote: »

Wow.... Deliberate or a lapse of concentration?....

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1402233933167390&id=100001423892001

Whoa, I would have had a coronary after that.

Chuchote · 22-04-2017 5:08pm

LpPepper wrote: »

Wow.... Deliberate or a lapse of concentration?....

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1402233933167390&id=100001423892001

Since the truck comes right across the white line, straight at the cyclist, it doesn't look like a lapse.

dixiefly · 22-04-2017 5:18pm

I drive in Dublin Monday to Friday.

I would say somewhere between 80 and 90% of cyclists routinely break red lights. I am not interested in getting into a debate about it. Just saying as i see it. I say a lunatic cyclist breaking the red light at Hanlon's Corner cycling towards Stoneybatter last week and then outside one bus, cut in front of it and then inside the next one.

Of course there are lunatic drivers out there, more often on the motorways rather than the average road in the city.

But this is about cyclist safety and i am of the opinion that there should be a confiscation policy put into law regarding cyclists breaking red lights. have a plain clothes policeman standing at a pedestrian light and take details / take photo of the cyclists when the break the lights and then have a colleague lined up to impound the bike down the road.

Maybe this is unworkable but something is needed as a deterrent to yclists breaking red lights.

amcalester · 22-04-2017 5:21pm

dixiefly wrote: »

I drive in Dublin Monday to Friday.

I would say somewhere between 80 and 90% of cyclists routinely break red lights. I am not interested in getting into a debate about it. Just saying as i see it. I say a lunatic cyclist breaking the red light at Hanlon's Corner cycling towards Stoneybatter last week and then outside one bus, cut in front of it and then inside the next one.

Of course there are lunatic drivers out there, more often on the motorways rather than the average road in the city.

But this is about cyclist safety and i am of the opinion that there should be a confiscation policy put into law regarding cyclists breaking red lights. have a plain clothes policeman standing at a pedestrian light and take details / take photo of the cyclists when the break the lights and then have a colleague lined up to impound the bike down the road.

Maybe this is unworkable but something is needed as a deterrent to yclists breaking red lights.

Very interesting but what has this to do with motorists dangerously overtaking cyclists? Any thoughts on that?

magicbastarder · 22-04-2017 5:22pm

dixiefly wrote: »

I am not interested in getting into a debate about it.

then why post about it?

Tenzor07 · 22-04-2017 5:29pm

dixiefly wrote: »

But this is about cyclist safety and i am of the opinion that there should be a confiscation policy put into law regarding cyclists breaking red lights. have a plain clothes policeman standing at a pedestrian light and take details / take photo of the cyclists when the break the lights and then have a colleague lined up to impound the bike down the road.

Maybe this is unworkable but something is needed as a deterrent to yclists breaking red lights.

A Garda on each traffic light in the city.. yes.. I think the Gardai definitely have the manpower for this..

Having Gardai in cars and with speed cameras hasn't deterred casual speeding and red light breaking by people in motor vehicles has it now?

amcalester · 22-04-2017 5:33pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

A Garda on each traffic light in the city.. yes.. I think the Gardai definitely have the manpower for this..

Having Gardai in cars and with speed cameras hasn't deterred casual speeding and red light breaking by people in motor vehicles has it now?

I commute 21k from South County Dublin to Citywest and I see more motorists break red lights than cyclists.

I'm sure that poster would support confiscating cars as well as bikes?

shootermacg · 22-04-2017 5:55pm

Can't argue with the observation though. I would say 80% of cyclists breaking straight ahead red lights sounds about right, at least on my commute.

I'm totally in favour of camera systems being installed, it would certainly add some much needed cash to the exchequer and penalty points for the cars and bikes. Breaking the law should indeed be punished.

We could get a team actuaries to calculate the fine amounts based on realistic relative parameters, such as momentum, potential to do damage etc.

Consider this:

I'm jogging and I crash into someone, should I be subject to a fine?

I'm on a bike that adds 8kg of mass and I crash into someone at the same speed as the jogger, should I be subject to a fine?

I'm driving a car, doing the same speed as the jogger and I drive through someone killing them instantly, should I now pay a fine or is it manslaughter?

Duckjob · 22-04-2017 6:03pm

A court needs to take that lorry drivers licence off him and and post it to the moon.

Tenzor07 · 22-04-2017 6:12pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Consider this:
I'm jogging and I crash into someone, should I be subject to a fine?

No, but you should go to specsavers instead!

robyntmorton · 22-04-2017 6:13pm

dixiefly wrote: »

I drive in Dublin Monday to Friday.

I would say somewhere between 80 and 90% of cyclists routinely break red lights. I am not interested in getting into a debate about it. Just saying as i see it. I say a lunatic cyclist breaking the red light at Hanlon's Corner cycling towards Stoneybatter last week and then outside one bus, cut in front of it and then inside the next one.

The whole "I am not interested in getting into a debate about it" thing tells me one of two things:

1) You're talking out of your arse, and don't want us to pull you up on it, or
2) You believe as a motorist what you say is the truth, and nobody can tell you otherwise.

Sorry, that's not going to wash. You come onto a forum on boards called "cycling", badmouth all cyclists with your claim, and don't want to debate it. How about this: Back up your claims, or withdraw them. By backing up your claim, I don't mean "I saw it", I mean provide reports, documents, something to say that this happens to that extent with some degree of regularity.

Nobody here is going to disagree with you that there are some lunatics on bikes. Everyone here has their own story to tell about that. But for you to say that effectively all cyclists are dangerous is utter crap. I've said it before on this thread, we all remember the bad ones (motorist, cyclist or whatever) but nobody ever remembers the good ones, who just go about their drive or cycle, and effectively blend in to the background of other peoples journeys. Not that they're not seen, but that they're unremarkable.

Kaisr Sose · 22-04-2017 6:46pm

dixiefly wrote: »

I drive in Dublin Monday to Friday.

I would say somewhere between 80 and 90% of cyclists routinely break red lights. I am not interested in getting into a debate about it. Just saying as i see it. I say a lunatic cyclist breaking the red light at Hanlon's Corner cycling towards Stoneybatter last week and then outside one bus, cut in front of it and then inside the next one.

Of course there are lunatic drivers out there, more often on the motorways rather than the average road in the city.

But this is about cyclist safety and i am of the opinion that there should be a confiscation policy put into law regarding cyclists breaking red lights. have a plain clothes policeman standing at a pedestrian light and take details / take photo of the cyclists when the break the lights and then have a colleague lined up to impound the bike down the road.

Maybe this is unworkable but something is needed as a deterrent to yclists breaking red lights.

Nonsense...

Weepsie · 22-04-2017 7:26pm

dixiefly wrote: »

I drive in Dublin Monday to Friday.

I would say somewhere between 80 and 90% of cyclists routinely break red lights. .

You must only be seeing about 5% of cyclists so. Anyway, the entire post is idiotic,

groovyg · 22-04-2017 7:27pm

ED E wrote: »

Whoa, I would have had a coronary after that.

Saw that posted to the Dublin cycling campaign Facebook page earlier and the some of the comments under the story are enough to give me a coronary https://www.facebook.com/dublincycling/
F****ing hell people who call themselves 'cyclists' saying they should be cycling single file and cycling as close as possible to the side of the road. Do they not realise this only makes motorists do stupid and risky overtaking manoeuvres :mad:

ItsLikeThis · 22-04-2017 8:09pm

groovyg wrote: »

Saw that posted to the Dublin cycling campaign Facebook page earlier and the some of the comments under the story are enough to give me a coronary https://www.facebook.com/dublincycling/
F****ing hell people who call themselves 'cyclists' saying they should be cycling single file and cycling as close as possible to the side of the road. Do they not realise this only makes motorists do stupid and risky overtaking manoeuvres :mad:

It's shocking the amount of people blaming the cyclist in the various posts on facebook.

Weepsie · 22-04-2017 8:13pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Can't argue with the observation though. I would say 80% of cyclists breaking straight ahead red lights sounds about right, at least on my commute.

I'd argue you're not seeing all the cyclists on your commute then. As another has said, and I've said elsewhere, we don't remember good behaviour. We recall bad behaviour.

Eventually some bad behaviour becomes normalised and we no longer find it remarkable and it becomes acceptable for some users. This is why many find it okay to break lights on the bike. It's also partly why so many people look at their phones while driving. It's become so normalised that it's not dismissed by anyway.

Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

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