Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Downside of social welfare

Options
24567

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    laugh
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭laugh


    In Germany if you go from working to unemployed you get 65% or more of your after tax pay for a while.


  • Options
    #33
    xi5yvm0owc1s2b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭xi5yvm0owc1s2b


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I'd safely say the vast majority of people on the dole do not want to be on the dole.

    I think that was the case in 2010 ... but in 2018 it's a harder statement to back up?

    The recession is long over. Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year in a row. There are plenty of jobs in the country now. Loads of shops, restaurants, etc., with help wanted signs up. There's a severe staff shortage in hotels. And yet there are still about 225,000 people on the Live Register.

    I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.


  • Options
    #34
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Being on a mortgage and facing the prospect of no way of meeting your repayments.

    Needing to go to college to upskill but not having the money to access childcare to allow you to go.

    Most of all the judgement for being a scrounger. It was a horrible experience, I was made redundant during the crash but everyone on welfare gets lumped together.


  • Options
    #35
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,100 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    laugh wrote: »
    In Germany if you go from working to unemployed you get 65% or more of your after tax pay for a while.

    67% of former net, if married, 60% if single, yes.

    BUT

    just for 12 months.

    After that, their equivalent of JSA, known as Hartz IV, is approx 400 pm.

    In contrast, we reward long-term UN by paying an Xmas bonus!!


  • Options
    #36
    Sweet.Science
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    Should of been more clear in my OP. I have huge sympathy for people who work etc then for whatever reason find themselves on the dole



    I was talking about people who play the system . Rent allowance/council house, medical card, fuel allowance etc . Is there a downside ?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    nothing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭nothing


    Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »
    I think that was the case in 2010 ... but in 2018 it's a harder statement to back up?

    The recession is long over. Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year in a row. There are plenty of jobs in the country now. Loads of shops, restaurants, etc., with help wanted signs up. There's a severe staff shortage in hotels. And yet there are still about 225,000 people on the Live Register.

    I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.

    There's another downside - it costing more to work than not to because you end up losing all the associated benefits, not to mention possible unsuitable hours (may not be able to access or afford childcare), need to and cost of travel, possible lack of qualifications or experience, cost to upskill, lack of security of hours, reliance on public transport anywhere outside of a city (bus eireann have recently cut several stops on the Galway-Dublin commuter route). It's not as black and white as "oh look, there's loads of jobs."

    https://forumofgames.com/



  • Options
    #38
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »
    I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.

    a lot these positions are specialist IT & Pharmaceutical and the like, that not many have the qualifications for...they end up going to migrants


  • Options
    #39
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    There's an upside?


  • Options
    #40
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

    I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

    Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

    Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

    People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.
    there is a world of difference between those who worked and contributed for years and then fell on hard times and the members of leisure class who never lifted a finger to support themselves or their society.

    In the case you describe, you should have been given a weekly dole payment of say 70% of your lost net salary, slowly tapering down to a minimum amount based on prsi paid over x amount of years. This figure should be well in excess of the dole paid to those who have never worked.

    Never working should be heavily penalised via very basic benefit levels. With increased automation and an aging population we cannot afford the luxury of a leisure class. Everyone needs to put their shoulder to the wheel.

    Have a read of this:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2016/05/19/new-report-proves-maines-welfare-reforms-are-working/

    The state of Maine tried an experiment requiring able bodied people in receipt of food stamps to start volunteering or training or working part time or face seeing their benefits reduce after 3 months. Lo and behold they saw their welfare bill reduce as lots of these people suddenly found jobs.


  • Options
    #41
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    People assuming everyone on the dole have no other incomes. How quaint.

    There are people on the dole as long as I'm alive (approaching late 30's), who have never not worked. Loads of people in the building industry alone working cash in hand.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Sweet.Science wrote: »
    Should of been more clear in my OP. I have huge sympathy for people who work etc then for whatever reason find themselves on the dole



    I was talking about people who play the system . Rent allowance/council house, medical card, fuel allowance etc . Is there a downside ?


    How is that somehow wrong in your eyes? How is it "playing the system?" and what is the alternative? The workhouse?


  • Options
    #43
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Graces7 wrote: »
    [/B]

    How is that somehow wrong in your eyes? How is it "playing the system?" and what is the alternative? The workhouse?

    The alternative is to get a (legitimate ) job.


  • Options
    #44
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    demanufactured wrote: »
    There's an upside?

    here's a few off the top of my head

    *getting exspensive medical procedures paid for by the state

    *not spending your time with assh@les

    *not being stuck in rush hour traffic

    *spending more time with your kids


  • Options
    #45
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    As many said before it depends on your circumstances. If you grew up in an environment where a slob life was the way to go you don't know better and it's likely you'll end up with that comfort yourself.

    If you have a family and lose a job that you could life off well enough, now that's something different. You get the bare minimum to scrape by, you're suddenly treated like an awfully lazy person that has no brain whatsoever and you'll lose a lot of your dignity. It disqualifies you from having an acceptable social life, you suddenly can't send your kids anywhere because it's too expensive and the 30 quid a month for their after school stuff makes a hell of a lot difference.
    You don't have the money to put fuel in your car, you might not be able to keep it on the road, you might have to move home to your parents because that's the only option beside homelessness and it's not uncommon that friends turn on you because you have not a single Euro spare to go for a coffee or get involved in any activities.
    I grew up quite poor, raised by a single mother that was trying to finish her degree but had no money and was always either on benefits or some really crappy minimum wage shift job. We couldn't go on school activities, I wouldn't get new clothes and when it was particularly hard we would only have a meal a day.

    I don't wish that on anyone really. But the upside is that these people will eventually find a way out of it, they might never return to the level they previously were on but almost everything is better than the dole because you have literally no purpose.


  • Options
    #46
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    Very easy to get stuck in a rut and hard to justify work. Leads to lack of ambition particularly if you are single person going to be earning minimum or even living wage.

    I.E.
    Social welfare - €198
    Rent allowance/HAP, Medical card , fuel allowance, CWO digouts etc..

    Work 40hours @ €10 per hour
    Take home is €362
    Your on your own for everything
    Effectively working for €4.10 an hour (diff between welfare and work pay)

    Welfare system way too generous.
    Should be food stamps , clothes vouchers and a leap card to get to and from interviews.
    Login to an online system weekly to upload a minimum proof of five job applications that are verified.

    If ya gets the free money to spend on fags, vodka and Domino's why bother working eh?

    Job Seekers is just that , money to support looking for a job.


  • Options
    #47
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,127 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »
    I think that was the case in 2010 ... but in 2018 it's a harder statement to back up?

    The recession is long over. Ireland is the fastest growing economy in Europe for the fourth year in a row. There are plenty of jobs in the country now. Loads of shops, restaurants, etc., with help wanted signs up. There's a severe staff shortage in hotels. And yet there are still about 225,000 people on the Live Register.

    I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it. Finding a job during the recession was one thing, but this number of people on the Live Register is harder to justify when the country grew by nearly 8% last year and numerous employers are crying out for staff.

    That really depends on where you are and what you do. There's loads of rural area's where there's feck all. And if you're in a specialised industry you could have time to wait between jobs.


  • Options
    #48
    Church on Tuesday
    Registered Users Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Church on Tuesday


    It's a safety net. When things go very wrong in life, which happened to me, it's there to help you out and to give you the means to get back on your feet.

    I was glad to have it and was it essentially a lifesaver, a couple of years ago, as I couldn't find work here I went to the UK and took whatever work was there there and was just glad to be working really, hoping now since I came back to do a PME and go on to be a teacher.

    No one on the dole is living it up trust me, it keeps you ticking over and that's it. I despise these dole bashing threads simply because you never really know a persons personal circumstance. If people have had a ****e time in their life like I had, and only really now starting to come out of it, the dole is essential to helping you out.


  • Options
    #49
    Art McCarrick
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭Art McCarrick


    Worth remembering a lot of welfare recipients are pensioners, welfare is a very broad term. There's nothing wrong with having a floor that people shouldn't fall through.

    I wonder how many people saying we have a homeless crisis and we should look after our own first also spout hate about people on the dole?

    Yes, there are perceived issues with people staying on it too long, or 2nd and 3rd generations of claimants but it's not a big percentage. It's a visible one though and an easy target and often makes for good headlines.

    I was on the dole for a year after qualifying as a teacher, couldn't get work. Used my dole money to drive around the country knocking on doors and handing in CV's. But I wouldn't deny anyone the right to the dole or tell them how to spend it. I never thought I would have needed it but Jesus was I glad to get it. But oddly, and maybe this says a lot, I felt guilty taking it, maybe because we have such a general negative opinion of people on welfare?


  • Options
    #50
    oceanman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭oceanman


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Downside? How about the constant dole-bashing threads in AH where people seem unable to distinguish between the vast majority of recipients who actually don't want to be in that position, and the reletively tiny minority who make it a lifestyle choice? That was definitely one.
    very true...


  • Options
    #51
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    Clyde Narrow Playboy wrote: »
    I think it's more accurate to say that the vast majority of people on the dole today could find work if they genuinely wanted it.

    The vast majority of people on the dole today do genuinely want to work. However, that doesn't mean they're going to find work today. I spent three whole months applying for jobs and didn't even receive an acknowledgement from most of them, let alone an interview. And I wasn't fussy about the jobs I was applying for either.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Art McCarrick wrote: »
    Worth remembering a lot of welfare recipients are pensioners, welfare is a very broad term.

    people are using the term "on the dole" in these conversations and that tends to reflect the target of their comments - however I would go forward and say the issue is long term recipients of jobseeker benefits

    OAP, Child benefit, Carers allowance,Illness and Disability etc. are all "welfare" benefits but I think it is clear that they are not what is being discussed


  • Options
    #53
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    Very easy to get stuck in a rut and hard to justify work. Leads to lack of ambition particularly if you are single person going to be earning minimum or even living wage.

    I.E.
    Social welfare - €198
    Rent allowance/HAP, Medical card , fuel allowance, CWO digouts etc..

    Work 40hours @ €10 per hour
    Take home is €362
    Your on your own for everything
    Effectively working for €4.10 an hour (diff between welfare and work pay)

    Welfare system way too generous.
    Should be food stamps , clothes vouchers and a leap card to get to and from interviews.
    Login to an o

    online system weekly to upload a minimum proof of five job applications that are verified.

    If ya gets the free money to spend on fags, vodka and Domino's why bother working eh?

    Job Seekers is just that , money to support looking for a job.

    Have you actually tried it? nb solid fuel allowance is a contribution not a complete cover. and not everyone has solid fuel heating. or access to a computer?


  • Options
    #54
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Have you actually tried it? nb solid fuel allowance is a contribution not a complete cover. and not everyone has solid fuel heating. or access to a computer?

    Yes I have. It was there for me when I needed it and I was grateful for it but there was little to no financial incentive for me to move off it aside from personal motivation hence my too generous remark. Right now I would fulfill the criteria of "being better off on the dole" , that shouldn't be the case.

    Libraries are free or hubs could be put in intreo offices and most of the population have internet enabled mobiles.


  • Options
    #55
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    Experience of being on the dole for a period of time is not the same as being a long term welfare recipient who has been housed and receives other benefits such as medical card, etc..

    If you lose your job and go on Jobseekers you get 188 euro a week (thats what I got anyway). It wasnt near enough to cover my expenses. I had a mortgage to pay, bills, I didnt have a medical card or any other allowances. So it seemed pretty bleak. The longer youre in that situation the more difficult it is to get back on track with the mortgage etc..

    However, if my housing was paid for and I was also getting other benefits such as medical, it might be a much better existence.


  • Options
    #56
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    ... most of the population have internet enabled mobiles.

    But how would they pay for them with your food stamp system?


  • Options
    #57
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    But how would they pay for them with your food stamp system?

    You my friend, have found a fatal flaw in the plan.

    Go on then.... everyone should get 10minutes,10texts and a whopping 10mb per week.


  • Options
    #58
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

    I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

    Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

    Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

    People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

    That's because the person who was working for many years and paying substantial amount of PAYE, PRSI, USC still get little bit less than the person who never worked a day in his/her life.


  • Options
    #59
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    You my friend, have found a fatal flaw in the plan.

    Go on then.... everyone should get 10minutes,10texts and a whopping 10mb per week.
    And what about money for things like kids' Christmas or birthday presents?

    Maybe they could be given tins of USA biscuits?


  • Options
    #60
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    There is a big attitude in Ireland that being on the dole = scrounger, even when we don't know the context or reason for it.

    being on the dole for 5+ years = scrounger


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    Very easy to get stuck in a rut and hard to justify work. Leads to lack of ambition particularly if you are single person going to be earning minimum or even living wage.

    I.E.
    Social welfare - €198
    Rent allowance/HAP, Medical card , fuel allowance, CWO digouts etc..

    Work 40hours @ €10 per hour
    Take home is €362
    Your on your own for everything
    Effectively working for €4.10 an hour (diff between welfare and work pay)

    Welfare system way too generous.
    Should be food stamps , clothes vouchers and a leap card to get to and from interviews.
    Login to an online system weekly to upload a minimum proof of five job applications that are verified.

    If ya gets the free money to spend on fags, vodka and Domino's why bother working eh?

    Job Seekers is just that , money to support looking for a job.
    vectorvictor wrote: »
    Yes I have. It was there for me when I needed it and I was grateful for it but there was little to no financial incentive for me to move off it aside from personal motivation hence my too generous remark. Right now I would fulfill the criteria of "being better off on the dole" , that shouldn't be the case.

    Libraries are free or hubs could be put in intreo offices and most of the population have internet enabled mobiles.

    Leap cards, libraries and intreo offices are all well and good for people in cities. What about the rural population? Should they trade food stamps for bus tickets?


Advertisement