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General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

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    #722
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Clever move by Martin. Leo now if he cuts and runs to the Aras will look irresponsible with the Brexit talks still not concluded. I doubt Leo will be rewarded if uncertainty is the result of a rush to the polls.


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    #723
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    He was never going to cut and run, Martin hasn't caught him in an elaborate trap.


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    #724
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Is Pat Breen around today? Another should be explaining himself. Head down I suppose.

    Martin would be all up for an election if he felt he had the numbers. Now would be a good time just after an unpopular budget and Naughton's Noonan like inappropriate behaviour.

    Brexit is often used as an excuse not to look after other areas.


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    #725
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Hurrache wrote:
    He was never going to cut and run, Martin hasn't caught him in an elaborate trap.

    I guess it's a matter of opinion so, however neither want to go to the electorate having collapsed the government. Martin now has asked for a commitment from Leo to stay the course for the sake of the country because of Brexit. If Leo ignores Martin, the blame for a winter vote is firmly on Leo's shoulder's and a large helping of irresponsible behaviour to accompany it.


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    #726
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    It's not really opinion though, it's reality.


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    #727
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Hurrache wrote:
    It's not really opinion though, it's reality.


    I think the best we can do is agree to disagree. I find going in circles is dizzing and unpleasant.


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    #728
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Clever move by Martin. Leo now if he cuts and runs to the Aras will look irresponsible with the Brexit talks still not concluded. I doubt Leo will be rewarded if uncertainty is the result of a rush to the polls.

    asif Martin had an alternative.

    FF are still a busted flush.


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    #729
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    lawred2 wrote:
    asif Martin had an alternative.


    There isn't light between FF and FG. Personally I think they should merge and drop the pretence of being an opposition to one another. It's only ego stopping them and some false grassroots ideology.


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    #730
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Clever move by Martin. Leo now if he cuts and runs to the Aras will look irresponsible with the Brexit talks still not concluded. I doubt Leo will be rewarded if uncertainty is the result of a rush to the polls.

    Martin shows his desperation to avoid an election.


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    #731
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blanch152 wrote:
    Martin shows his desperation to avoid an election.


    Post #727 should suffice.


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    #732
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Post #727 should suffice.

    Sorry, I don't understand.

    I didn't say it wasn't clever by Martin, which was your point. It was very clever by Martin as he is so desperate to avoid an election that he plays this card.

    The problem for Martin, and he sees it now, is that he might have to start voting with FG to avoid an election, rather than just abstaining. The letter is his clever way of putting this on the table.

    It is oldstyle FF cleverness, in that I agree with you.

    The other problem for Martin is that SF will have full licence to attack him rather than the government, after all, he is their main target. They know they won't get FG voters, so the soft republicans in FF are what they are after.


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    #733
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blanch152 wrote:
    Sorry, I don't understand.


    I told another poster I had no intention of going around in circles, when unless we know the inner workings of MM or LV mind opinion is what we have as to what their motives may be.


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    #734
    badtoro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 482 ✭✭badtoro


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Whats wrong with placing a levy on agriculture for Carbon emissions.

    Grand so, if we follow that line of thinking I take it you're in favour of paying farmers for any carbon sinks they may own as well.

    What's wrong with the levy is farming is an industry with huge political and vested interest interference. "The system" is geared towards production and is getting worse - payments like the sheep welfare scheme and others like the proposed suckler payment attaching €'s to animals heads. This often leaves the individual farmer stuck in a system they cannot change because they have no power to do so. Payments should be area based and focus on extensification, scientifically constraints, environmental benefit, and public goods.


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    #735
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Sorry, I don't understand.

    I didn't say it wasn't clever by Martin, which was your point. It was very clever by Martin as he is so desperate to avoid an election that he plays this card.

    The problem for Martin, and he sees it now, is that he might have to start voting with FG to avoid an election, rather than just abstaining. The letter is his clever way of putting this on the table.

    It is oldstyle FF cleverness, in that I agree with you.

    The other problem for Martin is that SF will have full licence to attack him rather than the government, after all, he is their main target. They know they won't get FG voters, so the soft republicans in FF are what they are after.

    I think an election is a very real possibility now, not because of either FG or FF, but because of a few irresponsible TDs in both FG and the IA.
    I think both party's will try to avoid it for now if possible, but just in case the blame game has started.


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    #736
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Still some unbelievably stupid antics by Denis, what an absolute tool.

    You'd think after his run ins with O'Brien he'd have learnt, but no, you can't fix stupid.

    Bit hypocritical of Leo though.

    Denis (Naughten) meets David McCourt. Informal meeting, no notes were taken - Denis resigns. (Leo doesn't have confidence in him)

    Leo meets Denis (O'Brien), informal meeting, no notes were taken. Nothing happens. (Leo brushes it off).

    Actavo still the frontrunner to roll out the national broadband plan.

    It all started with a mobile license.


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    #737
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Still some unbelievably stupid antics by Denis, what an absolute tool.

    You'd think after his run ins with O'Brien he'd have learnt, but no, you can't fix stupid.

    Bit hypocritical of Leo though.

    Denis (Naughten) meets David McCourt. Informal meeting, no notes were taken - Denis resigns. (Leo doesn't have confidence in him)

    Leo meets Denis (O'Brien), informal meeting, no notes were taken. Nothing happens. (Leo brushes it off).

    Actavo still the frontrunner to roll out the national broadband plan.

    It all started with a mobile license.


    Is this something new you are talking about?


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    #738
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Is this something new you are talking about?

    What specifically?


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    #739
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    What specifically?

    Not sure which Denis you are talking about at different points in your post.

    Not sure which meetings you are telling us Leo had with which Denis.

    Not sure it it is news or rehashing of old stories.


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    #740
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Not sure which Denis you are talking about at different points in your post.

    Not sure which meetings you are telling us Leo had with which Denis.

    Not sure it it is news or rehashing of old stories.

    Not sure that you even read the post so.

    Read it again.


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    #741
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Is Leo seriously so ill-informed that he thinks more staff available in hospitals will create less need for trolleys? Wasn't he Minister for Health at one time? It's having to leave patients on trolleys that's the bigger problem over the holiday period. How can more staff prepare beds that aren't there? It's like he's not been following the scandal of hospital trolleys at all. Did he not even read Enda's spiel?
    Taoiseach wishes he could direct health staff to work through January

    Dr Peadar Gilligan, president of the Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) and himself an emergency medical consultant, said a lack of beds and resources rather than doctors and nurses on leave is causing overcrowding in hospitals at Christmas.

    Blaming doctors and nurses for the failures of the health system was not helpful or appropriate he said.

    ‘Nonsensical’

    Be interesting to see which LA is responsible for Varadkar's latest ignorant spin. My money is on DCC.


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    #742
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Is Leo seriously so ill-informed that he thinks more staff available in hospitals will create less need for trolleys? Wasn't he Minister for Health at one time? It's having to leave patients on trolleys that's the bigger problem over the holiday period. How can more staff prepare beds that aren't there? It's like he's not been following the scandal of hospital trolleys at all. Did he not even read Enda's spiel?

    While it is far from the only issue at hand, if radiologists/labtechs etc are not present then patients who would potentially otherwise be discharged are left to wait until those people return. This is a contributory factor to the backlog in beds.


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    #743
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    While it is far from the only issue at hand, if radiologists/labtechs etc are not present then patients who would potentially otherwise be discharged are left to wait until those people return. This is a contributory factor to the backlog in beds.

    I would say there's a logic to that but it seems the people at the coal face would beg to differ.
    The General Secretary of the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation described the Taoiseach's comments as an attempt to divert from the real issues.

    Phil Ní Sheaghdha said the real issue is that there is no winter plan and said this winter is going to be as bad, but hopefully not worse, than last year.

    Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sean O'Rourke, she said INMO members work 365 days a year and many have built up a considerable amount of hours that they are owed.

    She said one department in one hospital has 1,000 hours owed.

    Ms Ní Sheaghdha said annual leave is curtailed over periods like Christmas and hospital rosters are "totally dependent on agency (staff) and overtime".

    She added that the healthcare system is also dependent on goodwill during crisis periods, such as Storm Emma in March, because the system is unprepared for such periods.

    Earlier, the President of the Irish Medical Organisation said that annual leave was not a contributor to the overcrowding problem in Irish hospitals, which manifests in the emergency departments.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2018/1107/1009191-hospital-overcrowding/

    It's Leo trying to divert away from the fact that nothing has changed in regard to this issue, there is no plan and looking to put blame on overworked staff who may be taking days off is below par, not for him I suppose.


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    #744
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I would say there's a logic to that but it seems the people at the coal face would beg to differ.

    It's Leo trying to divert away from the fact that nothing has changed in regard to this issue, there is no plan and looking to put blame on overworked staff who may be taking days off is below par, not for him I suppose.

    They are absolutely wrong if they claim it is not a "contributory factor" - but they are organisations representing staff so I understand why they would make such a claim. The question is how large a contributory factor and I frankly have no idea. They are also correct that there are many other issues at play. Varadkar is not fundamentally wrong though.


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    #745
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    They are absolutely wrong if they claim it is not a "contributory factor" - but they are organisations representing staff so I understand why they would make such a claim. The question is how large a contributory factor and I frankly have no idea. They are also correct that there are many other issues at play. Varadkar is not fundamentally wrong though.

    The nurses and midwives are the workhorses of the service. Doctors and junior Doctors too to a large extent.
    The surgeons, specialists and consultant chaps needed to get the prognosed treatment carried out are the ones off on their jollies.
    A round of golf, punchestown etc on Stephens day and coming to and around New year, even your average weekend.


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    #746
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    They are absolutely wrong if they claim it is not a "contributory factor" - but they are organisations representing staff so I understand why they would make such a claim. The question is how large a contributory factor and I frankly have no idea. They are also correct that there are many other issues at play. Varadkar is not fundamentally wrong though.

    If you want to go that route then Leo represents government, so we can see why he'd want to divert any culpability, so where do we go from there?
    He's grossly wrong to try spin this perennial crisis that his own party and former leader put down to a bed shortage. The point is it's an ongoing saga and to come out with this kind of guff is disgraceful and seemingly wrong by all accounts.
    Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sean O'Rourke, she said INMO members work 365 days a year and many have built up a considerable amount of hours that they are owed.

    She said one department in one hospital has 1,000 hours owed.

    Ms Ní Sheaghdha said annual leave is curtailed over periods like Christmas and hospital rosters are "totally dependent on agency (staff) and overtime".

    It's the latest in a line of diverting blame rather than governing effectively.


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    #747
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    If you want to go that route then Leo represents government, so we can see why he'd want to divert any culpability, so where do we go from there?
    He's grossly wrong to try spin this perennial crisis that his own party and former leader put down to a bed shortage. The point is it's an ongoing saga and to come out with this kind of guff is disgraceful and seemingly wrong by all accounts.



    It's the latest in a line of diverting blame rather than governing effectively.

    There's spin in that too, no one works 365 days a year.


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    #748
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Edward M wrote: »
    The nurses and midwives are the workhorses of the service. Doctors and junior Doctors too to a large extent.
    The surgeons, specialists and consultant chaps needed to get the prognosed treatment carried out are the ones off on their jollies.
    A round of golf, punchestown etc on Stephens day and coming to and around New year, even your average weekend.

    They're also the ones you can wait a long time to see, or see within days if you go to their private clinics.


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    #749
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Edward M wrote: »
    There's spin in that too, no one works 365 days a year.

    It means they don't close I'd expect. Hardly spin.


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    #750
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It means they don't close I'd expect. Hardly spin.

    The entire point is that plenty of specialty services do, in essence, close. This contributes to the backlog in clearing ward beds and adds to the trolley problems in A&E.

    I never said I completely took what Varadkar said as the objective truth - merely that there is an element of truth in it. He has obvious reasons to put his own spin on it.

    He is also completely right that all the winter plans in the world in the past haven't actually seemed to help, so coming at it from a different angle might be an idea.


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    #751
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    The entire point is that plenty of specialty services do, in essence, close. This contributes to the backlog in clearing ward beds and adds to the trolley problems in A&E.

    I never said I completely took what Varadkar said as the objective truth - merely that there is an element of truth in it. He has obvious reasons to put his own spin on it.

    He is also completely right that all the winter plans in the world in the past haven't actually seemed to help, so coming at it from a different angle might be an idea.

    No it's not. It's that we have an ongoing hospital bed shortage, exacerbated by the winter period. We know this, every year. Now Varadkar is suggesting staff not taking holidays would help solve this and staff organisations saying they are actually due hours and working over time. So Leo is taking nonsense even if his concept holds merit. He is trying to divert blame. There is absolutely no plan and 7 or 8 years in after Enda said he'd tackle the problem, and Leo having a stint as Minister of health, here's Leo diverting. Maybe if they tackled the crises they wouldn't need so much spin and nonsense.


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