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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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    #1292
    Thephantomsmask
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭Thephantomsmask


    Miike wrote: »
    DxroJraWsAA06IY.jpg:large

    All of those are without premia, overtime etc. That's a like for like comparison.

    ETA my wrong info, thank you for the correction Miike, I was using an older copy of the pay scale.


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    #1293
    Miike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Miike


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    The media tells me they are. Why didn’t they become doctors if they can get two degrees?

    In your alternate universe do you think that all nurses strive to be doctors? or are just not clever enough to do medicine?


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    #1294
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    Miike wrote: »
    In your alternate universe do you think that all nurses strive to be doctors? or are just not clever enough to do medicine?

    They would be paid better. If I got two degrees in fine art and pottery making you would ask why I didn’t get better degrees if I was complaining about my pay and conditions.


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    #1295
    Miike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Miike


    Thephantomsmask wrote: »
    Starting salary for a basic grade respiratory physiologist (technician has not been a job title for many years) is €33,719 since 2013, your graphic is incorrect.

    €35,417 Starting.

    iUxxPkZ.jpg

    Carry on.


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    #1296
    RinusLaptop76
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RinusLaptop76


    DS86DS wrote: »
    Nurses in this country are far to quick to complain. They have a good wage as well as plenty of public sector benefits as well as a cushy retirement plan in line with other public sector professions.

    If they are not happy with their calling in life, then there are others to fill the roll. And a nurses first priority should be in helping the sick, not holding the country to randsome.

    Nurses have little social welfare benefits, taxed to the maximum, they do help the sick, 1 nurse for 8 patients, many bedridden, need full care , often confused patients that are abusive , but that's part of the job, they are nurses and love their work. What about the dumping of elderly starting December? What about elderly being sent to the hospital because family goes on holiday? Family wants the pension so elderly can't go to a nursing home, people in a hospital for over a year? Because of family being greedy?

    Maybe look into a shift in a ward, maybe you'll see how heavy it is on your nurses, and as for others filling the role? Who? Newly graduates nurses move out, so no more nurses? Way to goðŸ‘


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    #1297
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    Miike wrote:
    What field?
    Medical Science.


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    #1298
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    They would be paid better. If I got two degrees in fine art and pottery making you would ask why I didn’t get better degrees if I was complaining about my pay and conditions.

    Come off it. They chose to be Nurses for various reasons. Expecting a wage they can live off is a separate issue or we'd all be doing the same wonder job we all like for great money, what ever that might be.


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    #1299
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Here is an interesting article about nursing levels from 2004

    Motivations on choosing to do Nursing Article
    Although the demand for training has increased, 70 per cent of nurses leave Ireland within two years of qualifying, writes Fiona Tyrrell.

    A degree in nursing is seen as a "passport to travel" by students, according to Irish Nurses' Organisation (INO) general secretary Liam Doran. He says the increased demand for nursing places has been prompted in part by the higher profile afforded to the profession by the new nursing degree courses and inclusion in the CAO system.

    The demand for the new courses, established in 2002, continues to rise, and the points required (between 360 and 400) are greater than that for an arts degree.

    More nurses are being trained in Ireland than ever before, with a 90 per cent increase in the number of trainees in the past five years. Last September, 1,740 started their nursing degree, compared with 900 in 1998.

    That would indicate, in the eyes of the then INMO secretary, that many nursing applicants specifically choose nursing because it would facilitate them getting to travel.

    Nurses holding up banners abroad saying "give us a reason to come home" should have a think about the reason they selected nursing when filling out their CAO.


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    #1300
    grindle
    Registered Users Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭grindle


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Its the understaffing thats the problem. But you kind of need to increase pay to entice people to stay rather than emmigrate.

    To an extent. If you have more staff on for the crossover hours which reduces overtime costs the reduced workload could result in happier workers willing to take slightly less pay for an easier job.


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    #1301
    Thephantomsmask
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭Thephantomsmask


    Miike wrote: »
    €35,417 Starting.

    iUxxPkZ.jpg

    Carry on.

    Apologies, I had an older copy of the pay scales. Thank you for clarifying.


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    #1302
    bri007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭bri007


    OT is a 4 year degree in Ireland
    Miike wrote: »
    Judging the from the support on the pickets today, I'd argue that you're wrong. People from local communities even joined the pickets to show support and solidarity. All that nurses are asking to be paid the same as other healthcare professionals who work less hours and have 20% of the caseload of a nurse. Also other allied healthcare professionals aren't required to do specialist post grads or MSc's to have any opportunity to move up or even laterally with their career. Nurses would have around 7ish years done in University to get the same rate of a pay as a 3 year degree OT graduate.

    Everyone who's never worked a day on the ward will posit that conditions are fine, pay is fine, there isn't a recruitment or retention problem and that the average pay is 50 odd thousand a year. Ofcourse, that's those who are blindly ignorant to where the average of that pay goes - There are more managers for nurses than nurses on the wards at this stage. Nurses are redeployed daily because of staff shortages in units across the board in Mental Health, General, ID and Midwifery.

    Graduate retention rates are sub 20% over 24 months post reg in some parts of the country.


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    #1303
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,294 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Reading this kind of makes me cringe.
    A lollipop person keeps school children alive, or a life guard at a swimming pool, what should we pay them?

    Yes, ICU is keeping me alive, and the nurse is monitoring equipment, but are they diagnosing? Are they selecting treatments? Are they doing the surgery? Are they prescribing critical medications?

    They are an essential role but they do not have ownership on treatment decisions or diagnosis.

    I'll repeat a point I made earlier just to clarify, I think nurses on the ward should be on more than they currently are after 5 years of service. But, the average money is 57k/year and this strike is to try to get 12% pay rises for all nurses. If that average is unrepresentative then it indicates a badly skewed structure where we have more nurses in management roles than we should have but the money is still in the pot for nurses and if they get this rise, it will be awarded to all nurses and thus the average will rise to nearly 64k. They have permanent positions, short weeks (but yes long days) and better pension benefits than those in the private sector for what they have to contribute.

    We cannot afford this, it is ignoring the problems elsewhere in the system, it devalues an agreed pay deal, it will trigger additional claims elsewhere.

    Again you haven't a clue. Nurses make treatment decisions every day and the more senior they are the more they make. Doctors prescribe medicine and medical treatment, but no consultant worth his salt would interfere with a nurse training a junior doctor in the art of approaching a difficult patient, or if a senior nurse questions whether certain patients would be able for a type of treatment. Nurses send physio and occupational therapy referrals . That nurse in ICU has to ensure you are ok by reading and interpreting more than just what is on a monitor, and when a doctor should be called, even if the vital signs don't flag it. There is more to nursing than following an order or prescription, and you show either ignorance of this or are just disingenuously arguing for argument sake.
    And for the last time , NURSES DO NOT EARN 57K ON AVERAGE. That is a LIE and I question who you are that you keep ignoring the fact that numerous posters on here have told and shown you that this is BS !
    You tell other people to read your posts , try reading what other people post .


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    #1304
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Come off it. They chose to be Nurses for various reasons. Expecting a wage they can live off is a separate issue or we'd all be doing the same wonder job we all like for great money, what ever that might be.

    But I’m earning less this year than I did last year because my taxes have gone up. My taxes pay nurses wages. They are getting a pay rise. They earn more than me and I can garantee you I go home more tired than 90 per cent of them each day.
    If all the people in my trade headed off to aus there would be outbreaks of all sorts of diseases.

    Nobody cares about us. Bus drivers will be next up. Then gaurds etc etc. Same every year.

    Don’t worry they can just raise my taxes.


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    #1305
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    Again you haven't a clue. Nurses make treatment decisions every day and the more senior they are the more they make. Doctors prescribe medicine and medical treatment, but no consultant worth his salt would interfere with a nurse training a junior doctor in the art of approaching a difficult patient, or if a senior nurse questions whether certain patients would be able for a type of treatment. Nurses send physio and occupational therapy referrals . That nurse in ICU has to ensure you are ok by reading and interpreting more than just what is on a monitor, and when a doctor should be called, even if the vital signs don't flag it. There is more to nursing than following an order or prescription, and you show either ignorance of this or are just disingenuously arguing for argument sake.
    And for the last time , NURSES DO NOT EARN 57K ON AVERAGE. That is a LIE and I question who you are that you keep ignoring the fact that numerous posters on here have told and shown you that this is BS !
    You tell other people to read your posts , try reading what other people post .

    I'm reading what people post. And responding where I disagree with it.
    Maybe you should put the nurses do not earn 57k on average in bold as well as caps next time. It might start to seem believable then even if it is not discounted by the INMO.

    Also, please don't question who I am to contribute here unless you are happy to admit that you are a nurse looking through the narrow focus of your personal experience but wilfully choosing to ignore the bigger picture.

    In all my statements about the 57K average, no one has provided evidence that it is false beyond saying "Well I don't earn that" or "My GF doesn't earn that". I know individuals don't. I know collectively it is the average.


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    #1306
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    But I’m earning less this year than I did last year because my taxes have gone up. My taxes pay nurses wages.
    Well nurses pay taxes too, so technically they pay their own wages.
    They are getting a pay rise. They earn more than me and I can garantee you I go home more tired than 90 per cent of them each day.
    I didn't realise peoples wages were based on how tired they were at the end of the day.
    If all the people in my trade headed off to aus there would be outbreaks of all sorts of diseases.

    Herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea?


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    #1307
    Miike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Miike


    A rake of misinformation in this thread. It's shocking.

    I just want to reiterate two points:

    Irish Nurses are some of the most qualified and sought after nurses in the world. Nursing still has this weird perception in the public as a nurse trots around after doctors executing their wishes and wiping arses inbetween. They're honors science degree graduates.

    Nurses are simply asking to be paid at a similar level to the other healthcare staff and AHP's.


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    #1308
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Tell me how wrote: »

    In all my statements about the 57K average, no one has provided evidence that it is false beyond saying "Well I don't earn that" or "My GF doesn't earn that". I know individuals don't. I know collectively it is the average.

    I posted this yesterday in response to you. You conveniently ignored it:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/
    In Ireland, nurses earn about the average wage which the Central Statistics Office last year put at €39,000.


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    #1309
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    Well nurses pay taxes too, so technically they pay their own wages.


    I didn't realise peoples wages were based on how tired they were at the end of the day.


    Herpes, syphilis and gonorrhea?

    Smart Alec childish slagging answers. It shows the maturity.


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    #1310
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    Smart Alec childish slagging answers. It shows the maturity.

    I've posted many well thought out arguments, with links backing them up, but this is still After Hours and I can say whatever I want;)

    Beside, your post was ridiculous, so it deserved to be ridiculed.


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    #1311
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    I've posted many well thought out arguments, with links backing them up, but this is still After Hours and I can say whatever I want;)

    So can a solicitor. They are smart enough to know when to open their mouth though.


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    #1312
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,294 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    1641 wrote: »
    Ah - the gender card - so no dissenting opinions now. By the way, what is the male/female ratio in Physio, OT and Speech and Language Therapy ?

    Well you might say this! All this condescending talk of caring ,empathetic nurses , obeying every order from above, sounds like someone's fantasy ?
    I totally agree with IamwhoIam, and Thomasdylan , no idea of what other things a nurse, male or female, actually does everyday in the real world. Nor do you want to know ,do you? So why don't we see the same cxxp in threads discussing gardaí or teachers , who have been on strike for more pay way more than nurses?


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    #1313
    billie1b
    Registered Users Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭billie1b


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    But I’m earning less this year than I did last year because my taxes have gone up. My taxes pay nurses wages. They are getting a pay rise. They earn more than me and I can garantee you I go home more tired than 90 per cent of them each day.
    If all the people in my trade headed off to aus there would be outbreaks of all sorts of diseases.

    Nobody cares about us. Bus drivers will be next up. Then gaurds etc etc. Same every year.

    Don’t worry they can just raise my taxes.

    Emm hello, you do know nurses also pay taxes on their wages yeah....


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    #1314
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    I posted this yesterday in response to you. You conveniently ignored it:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/

    I truly didn't see it yesterday. But, two things I will say.

    A, In is not surprising that the journal is publishing an article countering the governments position.

    B What do you think of the following?
    From a deparmental review

    “Data on nursing remuneration (excluding midwives) compiled by the OECD from 2007 to 2016 shows the average pay of a nurse including allowances and premia payments. This is presented in Figure 9 below which situates Ireland in an internationally comparable context.”

    ?width=630&version=4463819

    or
    In a statement to TheJournal.ie, it added: “While other countries provide data on a different basis, the 2017 figure of US$ PPP 63,464 remains an accurate estimate of what an average nurse earns in Ireland. While international comparisons are difficult, due to differences in how the figures are compiled, the OECD is the best source of data and the actual salary figures reported by the OECD do not suggest that nurses are low paid.”


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    #1315
    omega man
    Registered Users Posts: 4,750 ✭✭✭omega man


    USC or income tax increase and welfare cut to fund pay rise and see support levels vanish. Won’t happen but would be interesting to see the reactions...


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    #1316
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I truly didn't see it yesterday. But, two things I will say.

    A, In is not surprising that the journal is publishing an article countering the governments position.

    B What do you think of the following?

    A: I've always found TheJournal's fact check articles very good. Most of their other stuff is questionable. If you have an issue with their methods you should get onto them.

    B: If you read to the end you would have seen:
    And it is important to point out that the OECD data on nurses’ remuneration, which is frequently used as an indication of where Irish nurses fall on the scale, is not (by the OECD’s own admission) a reliable source.


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    #1317
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    billie1b wrote: »
    Emm hello, you do know nurses also pay taxes on their wages yeah....

    Yeah?people on the dole pay vat so basically we can keep raising dole because they pay it themselves.

    These degrees, do they have tests at the end of them?


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    #1318
    Miike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Miike


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    Yeah?people on the dole pay vat so basically we can keep raising dole because they pay it themselves.

    These degrees, do they have tests at the end of them?

    No, they put a hat on their head at the end of the 4.5 years and through the power of pure free will, it spontaneously erupts in speech to proclaim either "pass" or "fail".


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    #1319
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    Yeah?people on the dole pay vat so basically we can keep raising dole because they pay it themselves.

    These degrees, do they have tests at the end of them?

    Yes, like all degrees. And work placement throughout.

    And additional qualifications are needed when moving from one dept. to another, such as paediatrics, ITU etc, which are paid for by the hospital, but are essential if a nurse wants to progress.


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    #1320
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,294 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    theguzman wrote: »
    What about the literal billions dumped into the dark hole of adminsistation, crony managers and jobs for life. The HSE could function perfectly fine with at least 50,000 to 75,000 job cuts and just increase front line staff but trim out the fat. This will of course never happen which is why I favour privatisation.

    Hi Denis!


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    #1321
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Again, all these comparisons to other countries are totally pointless without comparing the cost of living in the same graph. How much do people pay in rent in those countries? How much are utilities? How much is fuel? How much is food? How much is charged by restaurants, bars, cinemas etc? How much does childcare cost? How much does healthcare cost? How much does public transport cost? How much does insurance costs? How heavily are those earnings taxed?

    Talking about comparative incomes without simultaneously comparing the cost of living is utterly meaningless and moronic. Ireland in general and Dublin in particular is exorbitantly overpriced to live in, and this has knock on effects on what can be considered a good living wage.


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