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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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    #1322
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    I posted this yesterday in response to you. You conveniently ignored it:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-nurses-pay-4463814-Jan2019/




    I read the article. It quoted a number of sources for the average pay of nurses in Ireland which turned out to give different figures. You only quoted one of them in your post, ie, €39000. There are other contradictory ones.



    Also, the article posed an opening question :
    Are Irish nurses among the highest paid in the world?

    And ended with the conclusion:


    UNPROVEN As per our verdict guide, this means: “The evidence available is insufficient to support or refute the claim, but it is logically possible.”


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    #1323
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    A: I've always found TheJournal's fact check articles very good. Most of their other stuff is questionable. If you have an issue with their methods you should get onto them.

    B: If you read to the end you would have seen:

    So are you saying that the journal produced a whole article and then said that the information they have used is unreliable?

    And you think that they are a trustworthy publication? So be it, that's your opinion.

    I also find it interesting that you agree that most of their stuff is questionable but you believe their fact checking articles which support your view.


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    #1324
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    Well nurses pay taxes too, so technically they pay their own wages.


    Perhaps there is a solution in this. Give the nurses the rise - and raise their taxes to collect the amount required to pay for it.


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    #1325
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    Yes, like all degrees. And work placement throughout.

    And additional qualifications are needed when moving from one dept. to another, such as paediatrics, ITU etc, which are paid for by the hospital, but are essential if a nurse wants to progress.

    So say I head into the office tomorrow. Tell the boss I want to upskill to be a mechanical engineer and run the site. He agrees and thinks it’s a great idea. I tell him he is to pay it. He agrees and tells me I can do it on his time.
    I pass my exams and he puts me in the office with the big boys and they teach me everything they know. Then I tell him the pay scale for mechanical engineer isn’t enough and civil engineers get more.

    I feck off to Australia and send social media pictures of me in Brisbane complaint he won’t pay me enough to come home.

    This is the kind of thing that could only happen in the private sector. All while we have housing crisis and trolley crisis and not one feck given. Sure if we don’t take it the bus drivers will.


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    #1326
    Sam Quentin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Sam Quentin


    backspin. wrote: »
    I think they are paid reasonably well as it is. There is a pay agreement in place at the moment anyway.

    I would agree,. tho I must say, most interviewees today on radio and TV seemed to be unhappy with workload and lack of nurses.
    Not much mention of money/pay rises etc.,the nurses just seem unable to keep up with the heavy workload.


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    #1327
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Sam Quentin wrote: »
    I would agree,. tho I must say, most interviewees today on radio and TV seemed to be unhappy with workload and lack of nurses.
    Not much mention of money/pay rises etc.,the nurses just seem unable to keep up with the heavy workload.

    Agree. There is a problem there. But paying more while leaving structures and other practices the same is like putting a bigger bucket under a leaking roof rather than fixing the leak.


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    #1328
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    They'll get what they want due to sheer numbers and if they cripple the system for long enough . The general public don't really hate nurses.
    The government should be more concerned about vacant consultant posts and junior doctors emigrating all the time and consultants who are not on specialist registrar.

    When the nurses get a rise, watch ever other ****er in the public sector go begging for one.

    We will end up in 2008 again if Leo doesn't stand firm.

    Nurses do a tough job, if they don't like the salary on offer they can and should go elsewhere. It's just business. If I didn't like the wages on offer from working in tesco, I wouldn't work in tesco. Why pay through the nose, plenty of foreign nurses willing to come here and are delighted with the salary.

    No. Nurses have not had a strike since 1998. Others in the public sector have been striking every second year over pay, conditions, having to deal with technology, new practices.
    Nurses do vote with their feet, that's the point here!
    And nurses from abroad come and go very quickly too when they see what it's like working in Irish hospitals.


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    #1329
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    1641 wrote: »
    I read the article. It quoted a number of sources for the average pay of nurses in Ireland which turned out to give different figures. You only quoted one of them in your post, ie, €39000. There are other contradictory ones.
    I'm well aware there are a few mentioned, but some posters are using the highest number which is from an unreliable source, I'm using the one from the CSO.
    Tell me how wrote: »
    So are you saying that the journal produced a whole article and then said that the information they have used is unreliable?
    And you think that they are a trustworthy publication? So be it, that's your opinion.
    I also find it interesting that you agree that most of their stuff is questionable but you believe their fact checking articles which support your view.

    Jesus Christ, talk about nitpicky.
    TheJournal produce many fact check articles, and not all have definitive answers. There's plenty of sources in the article. Some are more reliable than others.
    TheJournal rightly stated that that source was unreliable. It was the source you used in your post. I pointed out that it was unreliable.

    Supports my view, supports the view of nurses posting payslips here and all over social media, supports the view of many people striking today.

    The only view it doesn't support is yours, which is based solely on the fact that an INMO spokesperson didn't refute some passing comment on some radio show weeks ago.
    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    So say I head into the office tomorrow. Tell the boss I want to upskill to be a mechanical engineer and run the site. He agrees and thinks it’s a great idea. I tell him he is to pay it. He agrees and tells me I can do it on his time.

    My actual head hurts reading that sh*te. What's worse is the topic of nurses education was covered on this thread in depth already, but of course you're too smart to need to get up to speed.

    Nurses education is paid for by the HSE, on the provision that they pass the exams and stay with the HSE for a number of years. It's the same in my employer and nearly all other employers who pay for additional training.

    Jesus wept.


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    #1330
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    As an aside, the HSE is in ****ing disarray. So many patients die that wouldn't die in an NHS hospital. Drug companies offer trips (Barbados, wherever) disguised as conferences to consultants and pharmacists. There is no control of medication budgets in any Irish hospital. There isn't even a national sepsis policy for God sake.

    There is, EWS is designed to pick up sepsis among other complications. It is in every public hospital in Ireland. Do you not work in Ireland?


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    #1331
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If they’ve funded their own education, then they are free to go wherever they want. However, if their qualifications were state funded via a grant, then they should be obliged to work in the NHS for a minimum of 3 years.

    The 13 hour day seriously needs looking at. It’s ridiculous to expect anyone to work such hours in such a vital job.

    13 hour shifts were brought in in the 90s as a way to staff wards with less nurses. And things have only gone downhill since.


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    #1332
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    No. Nurses have not had a strike since 1998.

    Did they not strike in 2007 or 2008 over hours. They wanted their hours cut from 39 to 37 or something like that.


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    #1333
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    Doctors are the devil in the eye of Joe public, all that money and 'private rooms' ffs

    A specialist registrar is not a consultant and doesn't do private work.

    Nurses support their medical colleagues in getting their hours down to a safe level, and having proper study time and holidays. You have no idea, and by the way I think average " Joe Public " is a lot more discerning and have sympathy and respect for the good work most doctors do.


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    #1334
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Miike wrote: »
    I don't disagree however this still would't fill the gap between the other healthcare professionals.

    Yes, and also why would anyone study and take on the stress and responsibility of senior management roles in busy hospitals, if they could get the same pay staying as a staff nurse? Of course it has to apply across the board, it's a nonsense to say otherwise .


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    #1335
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    1641 wrote: »
    So if the average pay for a nurse in the HSE (after allowances, premium pay and overtime) is €57000, who is getting the higher salaries to bring the average up to this level?

    Why don't you read the posts in the thread? That has been answered numerous times. And it isn't an average wage, that would be a senior staff nurse after 20 years, working weekends and overtime , and at that a stretch.


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    #1336
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    I hope they get their pay rise. And I also hope that their detractors get some first-hand experience of the amazing work they do.


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    #1337
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    I'm well aware there are a few mentioned, but some posters are using the highest number which is from an unreliable source, I'm using the one from the CSO.


    Jesus Christ, talk about nitpicky.
    TheJournal produce many fact check articles, and not all have definitive answers. There's plenty of sources in the article. Some are more reliable than others.
    TheJournal rightly stated that that source was unreliable. It was the source you used in your post. I pointed out that it was unreliable.

    Supports my view, supports the view of nurses posting payslips here and all over social media, supports the view of many people striking today.

    Jesus wept.




    Read the conclusion of the article - the only view it supports is that "“The evidence available is insufficient to support or refute the claim (that Irish nurses are among the best paid in the world), but it is logically possible.”


    Then read the article more closely. It does not quote the CSO as saying that a nurse's average salary is €39000 (correctly, because they didn't say it). It quotes an OECD document (discredited source still ?) as saying that in Ireland nurses earn about the average wage. The article then adds that the average wage in Ireland is about €39000 according to the CSO.


    Anyway, average earnings is meaningless in this context. Many nurses work all sorts of part-time and job-sharing hours , so average wage has little relationship to full time equivalent earnings.


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    #1338
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    1641 wrote: »
    Read the conclusion of the article - the only view it supports is that "“The evidence available is insufficient to support or refute the claim (that Irish nurses are among the best paid in the world), but it is logically possible.”


    Then read the article more closely. It does not quote the CSO as saying that a nurse's average salary is €39000 (correctly, because they didn't say it). It quotes an OECD document (discredited source still ?) as saying that in Ireland nurses earn about the average wage. The article then adds that the average wage in Ireland is about €39000 according to the CSO.


    Anyway, average earnings is meaningless in this context. Many nurses work all sorts of part-time and job-sharing hours , so average wage has little relationship to full time equivalent earnings.



    I honestly don't care about the article.
    I'm well behind nurses no matter what they get paid, because they're so understaffed.

    I only linked it to refute someone elses claim they had never seen any evidence that nurses didn't get 57k average.


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    #1339
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Shaking my head here.

    That is the reported average earnings.
    The INMO have not challenged this average.
    The strike is for a 12% increase across all grades.
    The nurses should highlight/acknowledge the disparity in numbers receiving this which has such an impact in driving up the average and suggest ways to reduce the numbers in such roles.
    Then I will support the claim for a ward nurse increase.

    We have been highlighting this and have been reiterating it on this thread for the last week or more. You insist on accepting the FG spin , and repeating it over and over.( I wonder why?) . Look at Mike's post showing payscales.. I don't care what you support just don't want to let you spread fake sxxt unopposed!.


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    #1340
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    I honestly don't care about the article.
    I'm well behind nurses no matter what they get paid, because they're so understaffed.

    I only linked it to refute someone elses claim they had never seen any evidence that nurses didn't get 57k average.

    Yeah, you refuted a claim by showing an article in which a source stated the average earnings are 57K.


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    #1341
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Miike wrote: »
    DxroJraWsAA06IY.jpg:large

    All of those are without premia, overtime etc. That's a like for like comparison.

    Tellmehow


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    #1342
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 17,989 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Pay isn't the problem it's the level of work and poor working conditions. The whole health service is just not fit for purpose.


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    #1343
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    Tellmehow

    Once more, I'll say it, that does not refute the average.

    I have said I think nurses on wards with 5 years experience should be on more. My problem is that nurses are ignoring the fact that it is nurses in managerial roles who are using up a huge amount of money allocated for paying nurses and therefore those on the ward are not paid enough.

    I have stated, repeatedly, that if the nurses were striking to correct this imbalance I would support their claim. They are not, so I do not.


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    #1344
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    rob316 wrote: »
    Pay isn't the problem it's the level of work and poor working conditions. The whole health service is just not fit for purpose.

    I agree. That's why I wish they were striking demanding change in this area but they are not.


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    #1345
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Would that be a Pay restoration to that of the time immediately prior to the crash in 2008 or to that of the time before benchmarking increases awarded in 2002?

    Neither, pay restoration from before FEMPI.


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    #1346
    jay0109
    Registered Users Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭jay0109


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    I honestly don't care about the article.
    I'm well behind nurses no matter what they get paid, because they're so understaffed.
    Well, that type of economics will leave the country in a good place :rolleyes:


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    #1347
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 17,989 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I agree. That's why I wish they were striking demanding change in this area but they are not.

    They'll give them the money but it'll fix nothing nurses will be just getting paid more to compensate for poor conditions.


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    #1348
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    Where did she get the time or money to get these degrees if she is so overworked and underpaid?

    Weekends off, and holidays. Bank loan .


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    #1349
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 12,312 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    The media tells me they are. Why didn’t they become doctors if they can get two degrees?

    Some do pHD s and are doctors...of nursing. I would imagine the high entry points for medicine would deter a lot of people from doing it. And not everyone who is well educated wants to be a doctor .Is that what you want to do?


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    #1350
    Paulzx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    Tell me how wrote: »
    . My problem is that nurses are ignoring the fact that it is nurses in managerial roles who are using up a huge amount of money allocated for paying nurses and therefore those on the ward are not paid enough.


    Do you not believe that firstly nurses should be managed and secondly that they should be managed by nurses in senior positions?

    Who should manage them? Should there be no management? Should nurses in grades above that of staff nurses not be paid more than those they manage due to the extra responsability.

    I don't understand your issue with having nurses in managerial roles:confused:


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    #1351
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Paulzx wrote: »
    Do you not believe that firstly nurses should be managed and secondly that they should be managed by nurses in senior positions?

    Who should manage them? Should there be no management? Should nurses in grades above that of staff nurses not be paid more than those they manage due to the extra responsability.

    I don't understand your issue with having nurses in managerial roles:confused:

    No. Of course there should be managers and managers should be paid more.

    But, if the average wage of 57K is being skewed so excessively by the numbers in non-nursing roles then there must be too many of them.

    I have my own single piece of anecdotal evidence in this respect from a consultant who told me that a hospital he worked in in Canada had 2 nursing managers, an equivalent sized hospital in Ireland had 15.


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