Obesity crisis in Ireland Mod Note post 1

coffee_cake · 07-02-2019 12:24am

I don't understand why people always chime in with 1kg = 1kg. We know what he meant.
Next time i pick up a heavy box I'll have to see if someone jumps around the corner to tell me 1kg of heavy box is the same as 1kg of anything else

Macy0161 · 07-02-2019 12:27am

Only scientific evidence of sugar addiction is from rodents. Nothing proven in humans.

We like high sugar high fat foods because they taste nice, not because of an addiction.

Fwiw, I was a prop forward from when I started mini rugby, "big boned" my whole life, until I decided I wasn't. My body has responded to calorie deficit rather than settling at a particular (over) weight.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 07-02-2019 12:52am

metaoblivia wrote: »

Yes. I have a cousin who has been obese her entire life. Her mother was obese and that's how she grew up. She's never weighed under 200lbs in her adult life (she's also 5"10, so just a big woman in general).

My cousin now has two kids, both of whom are perfectly average in size - not overweight at all. That's because my cousin cooks healthy meals for her family. She also began working out 5 times a week a little over a year ago and lost 40lbs in fairly short order. And then she stopped losing weight. She was eating healthy and still working out (weights and resistance training with some cardio), but the weight was no longer shifting. Despite her weight loss, if you were to see her on the street, you'd definitely think she was obese.

My cousin isn't lazy. She works full time with special needs children, has two children of her own, refurbishes vintage furniture and attends local markets regularly to sell those items, plans family meals, continues to work out 4-5 times a week. But if she wants to ever be a "normal" size, she's going to have to fight for it because her body has settled into a weight range. And if she ever gets to that normal size, she'll have to continue fighting just to maintain that weight for the rest of her life. It's an incredibly tough cycle to be in and has to be demoralizing to hear others - who don't have to fight as hard to maintain a normal weight - accuse her of just being lazy and not having the willpower.

Post of the thread.

But it will be criminally overlooked because people love to ride the sanctimony pony. Anyone who advertises their weakness, such as smokers, overweight and obese folk, watch out!

Case in point:

Cake Man wrote: »

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. No human body just "settles into a weight range". You're weight is dictated by how many calories you consistently take in, it's as simple as that. If you are consistently taking in less calories than your body needs, you WILL lose weight. To claim otherwise means you'd be trying to defy the laws of thermodynamics. If your cousin isn't losing weight, it's because he/she simply isn't in a calorie deficit. That's all it is, not this concept of the body "settling into a weight range" crap, which smacks of a defeatist attitude and "Oh I'm just going to give up because obviously my body doesn't want to shift the weight..." mentality.

No, there’s hard science supporting exactly what Metaoblivia has said about her cousin. I hope you read some of the links that have been provided to you on the topic a few posts up from mine. To disregard them would be a bit obstinate.

And your reply to Metaoblivia just plain saddened me. Here is someone (her cousin) who is really trying and is still being judged. I honestly don’t know how anyone could read that post and feel anything but empathy.

Ardillaun · 07-02-2019 1:10am

In the middle of that interesting but difficult article from 2010, the authors seem to introduce the concept of a chow diet without a great deal of explanation:

It is tempting to speculate that imperfect body weight control is due to our present lifestyle habits, which offset biological control. This idea is in line with animal studies in which so-called cafeteria (or Western) diets resulted in hyperphagia (i.e., the animals lost intake control), progressive weight gain, and obesity when compared with a normal chow diet [45]. Switching back again to a chow diet, the rats normalized their body weights (i.e., the animals readjusted their weights to previous levels), and in the long term, this resulted in a normal weight trajectory [45].

They might have added something like this for casual readers like myself:

https://multipurina.ca/en/rodents/products/

It would appear that thinness, like extreme obesity, is largely a heritable trait:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007603

Our obesogenic environment acts on genetically vulnerable individuals to increase their weight. As in so many conditions, some families are more resistant than others.

The message I get from all this on the intake side is to increase my fruit and raw veggies, cut down on the desserts, sugar and alcohol, and do a bit of intermittent fasting at least once a week.

Wibbs · 07-02-2019 1:10am

Naos wrote:

Well, its not really. 1kg of muscle will weigh the same a 1kg of fat, muscle just takes up less space.

You don't say?

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't understand why people always chime in with 1kg = 1kg. We know what he meant.
Next time i pick up a heavy box I'll have to see if someone jumps around the corner to tell me 1kg of heavy box is the same as 1kg of anything else

1kg of feathers sprang to mind B.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Post of the thread.

But it will be criminally overlooked because people love to ride the sanctimony pony.

Do you ever ponder why some religious and political regimes and cultures kick off OD? They target the curtain twitching holier than thou sanctimonious set. Crawthumpers are crawthumpers almost regardless of the subject matter.

Ardillaun · 07-02-2019 1:20am

BTW one of the world’s major experts on obesity hails from Finglas:

http://www.ucd.ie/medicine/ourcommunity/ouralumni/alumniprofilesinterviews/profstephenorahilly/

You will notice he’s not exactly the scrawniest specimen you ever laid eyes on. In this department all we can do is our best.

Zorya · 07-02-2019 8:17am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

For whatever you will pay for with a surgery, you'll pay multiple times for late age Alzheimer's or dementia. 24 hour care and misery for all parties. Even if a person avoided those ills and Lived healthily until they are in their 90s, that's 20+ years of a state pension.

What are you saying here? Some sort of oblique argument for euthanasia, it looks like. So what if people are 50 years on a state pension? Do you want to cull those who take too much pension? Do you want to refuse people operations in case they live too long afterwards?

The laugh is money is made up data messed around with to create the idea of scarcity. But we should begrudge the elders a share of the fantasy funds, eh.

And I know a lot of people seem to have some kind of fashionable contempt not only for aging but also for life itself, but only 5%, maximum 10%, of elderly people get dementia. I would say at 90% plus the odds are in our favour. Very, very many old people live on independently in their homes to advanced age, with a little bit of help maybe if needed, though many of the wiry ancients around these parts refuse even that. I have seen men well over 80 climb farm gates no bother to them. And indescribably old women cycling calmly in the hills.
There was a time when people had a reverence for old people.

It wasnt me123 · 07-02-2019 10:23am

Zorya wrote: »

What are you saying here? Some sort of oblique argument for euthanasia, it looks like. So what if people are 50 years on a state pension? Do you want to cull those who take too much pension? Do you want to refuse people operations in case they live too long afterwards?

........

No that's not what he was saying - don't go off on a rant without looking at the posts before it!

He was responding to a post I said that people can eat what they like as long as I don't have to pay for their surgeries in later life when they've abused their bodies like the complications of diabetes, strokes, heart disease etc.

I think the point he was making, quite well actually, is that do we pay for medical treatment in later life to "fix" poor eating when younger or have all these healthy people (who didn't eat badly when younger) just being kept alive with awful diseases like dementia etc. and we pay their pensions.

So do we pay for the medical treatment or their pensions when they have no quality of life!

Zorya · 07-02-2019 10:30am

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

No that's not what he was saying - don't go off on a rant without looking at the posts before it!

He was responding to a post I said that people can eat what they like as long as I don't have to pay for their surgeries in later life when they've abused their bodies like the complications of diabetes, strokes, heart disease etc.

I think the point he was making, quite well actually, is that do we pay for medical treatment in later life to "fix" poor eating when younger or have all these healthy people (who didn't eat badly when younger) just being kept alive with awful diseases like dementia etc. and we pay their pensions.

So do we pay for the medical treatment or their pensions when they have no quality of life!

I read the posts before it.
I actually responded to the very post of yours that you mention by quoting a Danish study which shows that it is those with higher BMI who have lowest mortality risk. Bloody bastards living longer.

You will pay for lots of things in your life, and a lot of it to subsidise the very, very rich. You will bail out bondholders and banks and pay for environmental damage done by huge corporations. You will pay for plenty of surgeries on people who have eaten well and been good. You will pay for children who are not yours to be educated. You will pay for ornery ol' fools who refuse to lie down and die. What ya gonna do about it.

''So do we pay for the medical treatment or their pensions when they have no quality of life...'' ~ How about yes? Like civilised humans.

It wasnt me123 · 07-02-2019 10:34am

Zorya wrote: »

I read the posts before it.
I actually responded to the very post of yours that you mention by quoting a Danish study which shows that it is those with higher BMI who have lowest mortality risk. Bloody bastards living longer.

....

Look at it again, I didn't quote any Danish study!

Better still go have a coffee and breathe

Zorya · 07-02-2019 10:36am

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Look at it again, I didn't quote any Danish study!

Better still go have a coffee and breathe

Think you better have the coffee

Twas I what quoted the Danish study.

Macy0161 · 07-02-2019 10:36am

Zorya wrote: »

Think you better have the coffee Twas I what quoted the Danish study.

Have a coffee and a danish?

Zorya · 07-02-2019 10:38am

Macy0161 wrote: »

Have a coffee and a danish?

_Brian · 07-02-2019 10:38am

metaoblivia wrote: »

Yes. I have a cousin who has been obese her entire life. Her mother was obese and that's how she grew up. She's never weighed under 200lbs in her adult life (she's also 5"10, so just a big woman in general).

My cousin now has two kids, both of whom are perfectly average in size - not overweight at all. That's because my cousin cooks healthy meals for her family. She also began working out 5 times a week a little over a year ago and lost 40lbs in fairly short order. And then she stopped losing weight. She was eating healthy and still working out (weights and resistance training with some cardio), but the weight was no longer shifting. Despite her weight loss, if you were to see her on the street, you'd definitely think she was obese.

My cousin isn't lazy. She works full time with special needs children, has two children of her own, refurbishes vintage furniture and attends local markets regularly to sell those items, plans family meals, continues to work out 4-5 times a week. But if she wants to ever be a "normal" size, she's going to have to fight for it because her body has settled into a weight range. And if she ever gets to that normal size, she'll have to continue fighting just to maintain that weight for the rest of her life. It's an incredibly tough cycle to be in and has to be demoralizing to hear others - who don't have to fight as hard to maintain a normal weight - accuse her of just being lazy and not having the willpower.

If she wants to loose more weight she needs to be burning significantly more calories than she is consuming. This is a life long habit of being fat that she is trying to shed and it takes hard work.
Busy people can be fat, they’re still eating more than they’re burning, that’s how it works.

If you continuously burn more than you consume then your body has to draw on its fat reserves to fuel itself, it can’t get the energy from anything else.

I’m not saying she’s lazy, but being busy doesn’t mean she is burning off the calorie. And activities are secondary, eating controlled volumes of calories is the primary. If she’s not loosing weight then she’s missing something or just being untruthful about what she is consuming.

Macy0161 · 07-02-2019 10:41am

AllForIt wrote: »

The expression 'everything in moderation' does't quite work anymore because of what we eat nowadays.

Specifically, if you eat biscuits/cake/junk food every day, which are either full of hydrogenated fat or sugar or both, and you are not overweight indeed even slim, you still have a problem.

Everything in moderation does really work, because I don't believe the intent is biscuits/ cake/ junk every day. But sometimes, as part of a healthy balanced diet, everything in moderation. Diet changes are likely to be more sustainable with no foods or food groups completely excluded, and less likely to lead to a binge/ blow out.

Zorya · 07-02-2019 10:42am

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Look at it again, I didn't quote any Danish study!

Better still go have a coffee and breathe

:pac: and I have just seen that you thanked me for quoting it in response to your post.

(I had a rough night too, damn insomnia, so I'll let you off on previously good behaviour.)

Naos · 07-02-2019 10:43am

Wibbs wrote: »

You don't say?

1kg of feathers sprang to mind B.

Well, I do say because you're throwing out a comment that is incorrect. "Makes sense as muscle is heavier than fat".
How exactly does that make sense and if you know it to be false, why not just say the true statement?

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't understand why people always chime in with 1kg = 1kg. We know what he meant.

Next time i pick up a heavy box I'll have to see if someone jumps around the corner to tell me 1kg of heavy box is the same as 1kg of anything else

I do not get your heavy box analogy at all - what has that got to do with what I said?

Wibbs · 07-02-2019 10:55am

Naos wrote: »

Well, I do say because you're throwing out a comment that is incorrect. "Makes sense as muscle is heavier than fat".
How exactly does that make sense and if you know it to be false, why not just say the true statement?

I'm not sure if you're being serious, or ...

You said: Well, its not really. 1kg of muscle will weigh the same a 1kg of fat, muscle just takes up less space. No shit Sherlock. I said muscle is heavier than fat.

OK. Let's break it down to the dumbest of levels. Is lead heavier than wood? Would I not be a moron if I said, nope wood is heavier than lead? If I said 1kg of lead was the same weight as 1kg of wood I'd be correct, but that's not what we're talking about is it? Now we can get into mass and densities and all that, but I'm not sure that's going to help if you're coming out with statements like these.

I do not get your heavy box analogy at all - what has that got to do with what I said?

*Insert facepalm meme here*

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 07-02-2019 10:55am

The obesity crisis, and I believe most of us agree it is a crisis, is mostly down to poor parenting and lack of personal responsibility IMHO. While the state and education system have their role to play, it is up to individuals and parents to educate themselves and their children on a healthy lifestyle.

If I was to pick one contributing factor, it is lazy parenting.

Driving to school day in day out when you're within 5 minute walking distance and the sun shining
Pasta or pizza EVERY evening, dumped in ketchup or butter, not a sign of any meat or veg
Tolerating BS in relation to meals "I don't like X, I don't like Y so I am not eating it"
Shoving tablets in kids face to keep them quiet, game consoles, TV for hours so mammy or daddy can have a moment to themselves
ZERO participaction in exercise, teams, outdoor or indoor activities
Parents not able to boil a f**king egg FFS.
The list is endless...

The sugar tax is an absolute farce btw. I am disgusted that was even entertained. It's right up there with off licence closing times and minimum pricing on alcohol.

07-02-2019 10:58am

It's indeed a huge problem.
It's a contributing factor to why the HSE is w@nked, hospitals full of fat cnuts and their associated ailments.

Dalomanakora · 07-02-2019 11:01am

Augeo wrote: »

It's indeed a huge problem.
It's a contributing factor to why the HSE is w@nked, hospitals full of fat cnuts and their associated ailments.

I was a "fat cnut" until last year (still a little overweight) and the couple of times I was in hospital, it wasn't weight related. One was a suspected burst ovarian cyst, one was sepsis and has resulted in me needing numerous surgeries from complications.

Funnily enough, I saw FAR more drunken assholes and far more old people with colds in A&E those nights than I did fat people

Marengo · 07-02-2019 11:03am

If we all jogged on the spot for the time equivalent we spend typing messages here on boards, social media etc.. We'd have no problems, half joking, half in earnest

Zorya · 07-02-2019 11:12am

Dalomanakora wrote: »

I was a "fat cnut" until last year (still a little overweight) and the couple of times I was in hospital, it wasn't weight related. One was a suspected burst ovarian cyst, one was sepsis and has resulted in me needing numerous surgeries from complications.

Funnily enough, I saw FAR more drunken assholes and far more old people with colds in A&E those nights than I did fat people

And how about stupidity as a factor? I'm not fat but I came within centimetres of killing myself stone dead last year and when I was in hospital I confessed to the doctor that I was so embarrassed that it was my utter jaw-dropping stupidity that almost killed me. He reassured me that if stupidity was ruled a reason not to treat people in A and E they would have very few patients.

Dalomanakora · 07-02-2019 11:13am

Zorya wrote: »

And how about stupidity as a factor? I'm not fat but I came within centimetres of killing myself stone dead last year and when I was in hospital I confessed to the doctor that I was so embarrassed that it was my utter jaw-dropping stupidity that almost killed me. He reassured me that if stupidity was ruled a reason not to treat people in A and E they would have very few patients.

My own jaw dropping stupidity in not seeking medical attention earlier is why I ended up with sepsis :pac: Lots and lots of us stupid arseholes in there too :pac:

It wasnt me123 · 07-02-2019 11:24am

Zorya wrote: »

:pac: and I have just seen that you thanked me for quoting it in response to your post.

(I had a rough night too, damn insomnia, so I'll let you off on previously good behaviour.)

If I did I removed it cos it isnt their now and go patronise someone else.

Its lazy parenting that has children/teenagers overweight and leads to terribly bullying and fat shaming in children which they carry into later life.

Easier to give in and be a friend then say no and be a parent.

zell12 · 07-02-2019 11:53am

DailyMail - No wonder we've got an obesity problem
– look how a Sunday roast has gone from sparse to supersize over the decades

Macy0161 · 07-02-2019 11:54am

Marc Important Shampoo wrote: »

If I was to pick one contributing factor, it is lazy parenting.

Driving to school day in day out when you're within 5 minute walking distance and the sun shining

Just to pick one that I don't necessarily agree with - our society has been allowed be dominated by the private car. Vulnerable road users, including children walking or cycling to school, are actually blamed for putting themselves in danger*.

The car is king, and yes I believe it is contributing to obesity, as an active commute has been shown to be one of the most sustainable (in terms of people keeping it up) forms of exercise people can do. But there's a risk of labelling it laziness when there's understandable concerns about letting children walk our roads.

We're currently having that debate as parents ourselves. Well within walking distance, but the speed and amount of distracted driving we see on the short stretch without a footpath is a real fear.

*have a look at countless threads and comments on motors and cycling. It's basically everyone else get out of the way of the motorist. The RSA and Gardai carry on the victim blaming with the solution PPE, rather than motorist behaviours and enforcement.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 07-02-2019 12:48pm

While I see where you're coming from and agree with the safety aspect, particularly in a rural environment and/or where there is lack of footpaths, the majority of children would have access to a footpath from home to school (particular in the larger cities, Dublin, Galway, Cork).

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just to pick one that I don't necessarily agree with - our society has been allowed be dominated by the private car. Vulnerable road users, including children walking or cycling to school, are actually blamed for putting themselves in danger*.

The car is king, and yes I believe it is contributing to obesity, as an active commute has been shown to be one of the most sustainable (in terms of people keeping it up) forms of exercise people can do. But there's a risk of labelling it laziness when there's understandable concerns about letting children walk our roads.

We're currently having that debate as parents ourselves. Well within walking distance, but the speed and amount of distracted driving we see on the short stretch without a footpath is a real fear.

*have a look at countless threads and comments on motors and cycling. It's basically everyone else get out of the way of the motorist. The RSA and Gardai carry on the victim blaming with the solution PPE, rather than motorist behaviours and enforcement.

07-02-2019 1:54pm

Dalomanakora wrote: »

I was a "fat cnut" until last year (still a little overweight) and the couple of times I was in hospital, it wasn't weight related. One was a suspected burst ovarian cyst, one was sepsis and has resulted in me needing numerous surgeries from complications.

Funnily enough, I saw FAR more drunken assholes and far more old people with colds in A&E those nights than I did fat people

Apologies, folk with heart disease etc from being fat don't end up in hospital, silly me. Also A&E is representative of the general hospital population too. No such thing as planned procedures etc, silly me again.

An of course, you are representative of all fat cnut patients, cheers for the heads up.

Naos · 07-02-2019 2:17pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're being serious, or ...

You said: Well, its not really. 1kg of muscle will weigh the same a 1kg of fat, muscle just takes up less space. No shit Sherlock. I said muscle is heavier than fat.

OK. Let's break it down to the dumbest of levels. Is lead heavier than wood? Would I not be a moron if I said, nope wood is heavier than lead? If I said 1kg of lead was the same weight as 1kg of wood I'd be correct, but that's not what we're talking about is it? Now we can get into mass and densities and all that, but I'm not sure that's going to help if you're coming out with statements like these.

Ok Wibbs.

Obesity crisis in Ireland Mod Note post 1

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