6n 2019 Scotland Vs Ireland build up thread

Dubinusa · 07-02-2019 6:17pm

Agree with the Farrell call. I would have liked to see Addison, but Farrell is fine.
Delighted for Conan!! Hope he goes well. He's a very good player and has bided his time.
If Murray is as poor as last week, we'll be in trouble.

Perifect · 07-02-2019 6:18pm

bob mcbob wrote: »

You think so?
Murray's skill with these is the chaser arrives at the same time as the ball.

With the wind it is going to be very difficult to judge.

Overcook it and it gives Hogg counterattack opportunities.
Undercook it and the chaser is static with Scottish backs attacking him.

It'll be wet and windy. I think playing through the hands might seem too risky for Joe. I hope I'm wrong because we really need to work on something different.

Perifect · 07-02-2019 6:19pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Wind like that makes kicking to the sky a lottery.

Not exactly something that would excite Jo.

He might prefer it to keeping it in hand if it's still wet and slippy!

kuang1 · 07-02-2019 6:21pm

Perifect wrote: »

... because we really need to work on something different.

No we really don't.

We need to show up ready to play. And then keep playing the way we've been playing for the last year or more.

DellyBelly · 07-02-2019 6:30pm

Happy enough with that team. Would like to have seen Carbs starting but after losing last week I can see why he went with Johnny. Delighted Earlsey is fit. I expect a big game from him. Be interesting to watch how Roux and Conan go.

Quint2010 · 07-02-2019 6:41pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Not in a million years. Henshaw is on a par with Aki for 12 and just behind Ringrose for 13. Then a big gap to Farrell who isn't far ahead of his namesake. In fact I think Chris Farrell would be a better 12 than 13. He's more of a power runner suited to inside centre IMO.

Well I'm going on his performance as a 13 against Wales last year when he got MOTM. Maybe a bit optimistic of me. He plays there for Munster. Henshaw has never convinced me as a 13 TBH.

Perifect · 07-02-2019 6:42pm

kuang1 wrote: »

No we really don't.

We need to show up ready to play. And then keep playing the way we've been playing for the last year or more.

We've been exposed. Some of us have always thought that we need a plan b, the England game proved it.

aloooof · 07-02-2019 6:44pm

Perifect wrote: »

We've been exposed. Some of us have always thought that we need a plan b, the England game proved it.

Can you point to your posts prior to the England game where you said we need a plan b? Cos I don't recall any.

EDIT: To be fair, you did post this:

"Box kicking has worked really well for us. As has the garryowen. I just have a feeling we'll need something more come world cup time. It's happened before where we were caught off guard by something different."

But I think that sets up a false premise that box kicking is all we have. Just look back to Standers try versus England last year.

troyzer · 07-02-2019 6:48pm

aloooof wrote: »

Perifect wrote: »

We've been exposed. Some of us have always thought that we need a plan b, the England game proved it.

Can you point to your posts prior to the England game where you said we need a plan b? Cos I don't recall any.

As if on cue....

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2019/0207/1028153-schmidt-shoots-down-talk-of-one-dimensional-ireland/

Perifect · 07-02-2019 6:57pm

aloooof wrote: »

Can you point to your posts prior to the England game where you said we need a plan b? Cos I don't recall any.

EDIT: To be fair, you did post this:

"Box kicking has worked really well for us. As has the garryowen. I just have a feeling we'll need something more come world cup time. It's happened before where we were caught off guard by something different."

But I think that sets up a false premise that box kicking is all we have. Just look back to Standers try versus England last year.

Time has moved on. England read us like a book. We need more variety. If we get beaten in the air, we lose the match. Standers try was great but it was off a set piece move. From open play we are way too predictable and lack any invention. The box kick is our main play and we have very little creativity.
As I've also said, it's good that this has been exposed now, we have time before the world cup to fix it.

mfceiling · 07-02-2019 8:35pm

Buer wrote: »

Is there another Robbie Henshaw playing in a parallel universe that has some sort of insane injury record?

The one I know of is still only 25, has 116 provincial appearances and 37 Irish caps (which is already more than Fitzgerald who retired just before his 29th birthday).

You're thinking of Ronnie Henshaw...Never really gets mentioned because he's almost always injured and therefore never gets too many column inches.

Jump_In_Jack · 07-02-2019 8:38pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'd have had Ruddock on the bench for this one all day long.

Ah, he’d be wasted on the bench all day long, be better to bring him on as a substitute.
ðŸ˜œ

tmc1963 · 08-02-2019 12:44am

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

With the exception of Watson and possibly Barclay almost all of those injured players are crap anyway, so most of them won't be any loss to them. WP Nel is out too though which will be a blow. Generally they look weak in both prop positions so we should be going after their scrum from the start.

I think we are stronger in almost every position from 1-10 with the exception of hooker, so if we perform to our standards in the forwards we should be able to grind it out without giving their outside backs a chance to do too much damage.

Can I ask if these are widely held views - it's just that they seem a bit dismissive.

ClanofLams · 08-02-2019 1:40am

Wouldn't be overly confident, the number of changes make it hard to have much cohesion. Big chance for Conan and Roux, the former to potentially make a case for a starting position, although he will need to be excellent for the remainder of the 6N given how consistent Stander has been and the latter to solidify his place in the squad.

Roux has improved a lot over the last couple of years, think he will go well, the only fault I would have with him is he can give away silly penalties but hopefully that won't happen. The criticism of him last week on here was bizarre, someone suggested he should never see a squad again or something daft like that, how they reached that conclusion was beyond my understanding.

The game probably hinges on Murray and Sexton, if they are back to somewhere approaching their best, Ireland should be fine. But if they're anything like last week it could be a long afternoon.

molloyjh · 08-02-2019 1:53am

ClanofLams wrote: »

Wouldn't be overly confident, the number of changes make it hard to have much cohesion. Big chance for Conan and Roux, the former to potentially make a case for a starting position, although he will need to be excellent for the remainder of the 6N given how consistent Stander has been and the latter to solidify his place in the squad.

Roux has improved a lot over the last couple of years, think he will go well, the only fault I would have with him is he can give away silly penalties but hopefully that won't happen. The criticism of him last week on here was bizarre, someone suggested he should never see a squad again or something daft like that, how they reached that conclusion was beyond my understanding.

The game probably hinges on Murray and Sexton, if they are back to somewhere approaching their best, Ireland should be fine. But if they're anything like last week it could be a long afternoon.

The game hinges on our pack I think. They didn’t show up last week the way we all know they can. Murray and Sexton were poor enough, but England won the battle up front all day long and their line speed and physicality was so good that even on form the half backs would have struggled. It’s a cliche for a reason, but forwards do generally win games.

My biggest concern isn’t in selection, it’s the attitude. If they show up looking as lethargic as they did last week we’ll lose. Get our heads right and we should win.

ClanofLams · 08-02-2019 2:17am

molloyjh wrote: »

The game hinges on our pack I think. They didn’t show up last week the way we all know they can. Murray and Sexton were poor enough, but England won the battle up front all day long and their line speed and physicality was so good that even on form the half backs would have struggled. It’s a cliche for a reason, but forwards do generally win games.

My biggest concern isn’t in selection, it’s the attitude. If they show up looking as lethargic as they did last week we’ll lose. Get our heads right and we should win.

Yeah that's fair enough. I expect the pack to be able to get parity at worst and probably have the better of it. Just thought the half backs were so poor last week that even with parity or a slight edge Scotland could quite easily win if they don't improve, particularly because Schmidt tends to leave them out there for close to 80.

Murray and Sexton are obviously being judged on a different scale too when I say they were terrible, it's on the basis of them being the best combination in world rugby.

swiwi_ · 08-02-2019 6:21am

IMO, none of the Irish players would make the Scottish side

*World Rugby Regulation 8

wittycynic · 08-02-2019 7:50am

Selection for this match is a big of a missed opportunity to bring in some younger players with a view towards the autumn.

At the next World Cup the age profile of (arguably) our first fifteen will be:

Cian Healy (32)
Rory Best (37)
Tadgh Furlong (26)
James Ryan (23)
Devin Toner (33)
Peter O'Mahony (30)
Sean O'Brien (32)
CJ Stander (29)

Conor Murray (30)
Johnny Sexton (34)
Keith Earls (32)
Bundee Aki (29)
Garry Ringrose (24)
Jacob Stockdale (23)
Rob Kearney (33)

That's nine players in their 30s, with four 33 or over, and an average team age of 30. The cumulative effect of all this is a team that won't have the same ability to get through work, or recover, as one even two or three years younger on average.

While Schmidt's hands are tied around experimentation at second row in a sense, abandoning the Henshaw at full back idea after one game (dropped players under Schmidt routinely appear to have picked up a face-saving knock) and failing to give time to Larmour at full back are errors. As is not looking to Scannel at hooker at this stage.

Last year was an incredible one for Irish rugby, but looking at the profile of the team, you increasingly get the view it was a last hurrah for a lot of players who are now moving past their prime.

Neil3030 · 08-02-2019 7:58am

wittycynic wrote: »

Selection for this match is a big of a missed opportunity to bring in some younger players with a view towards the autumn.

At the next World Cup the age profile of (arguably) our first fifteen will be:

Cian Healy (32)
Rory Best (37)
Tadgh Furlong (26)
James Ryan (23)
Devin Toner (33)
Peter O'Mahony (30)
Sean O'Brien (32)
CJ Stander (29)

Conor Murray (30)
Johnny Sexton (34)
Keith Earls (32)
Bundee Aki (29)
Garry Ringrose (24)
Jacob Stockdale (23)
Rob Kearney (33)

That's nine players in their 30s, with four 33 or over, and an average team age of 30. The cumulative effect of all this is a team that won't have the same ability to get through work, or recover, as one even two or three years younger on average.

While Schmidt's hands are tied around experimentation at second row in a sense, abandoning the Henshaw at full back idea after one game (dropped players under Schmidt routinely appear to have picked up a face-saving knock) and failing to give time to Larmour at full back are errors. As is not looking to Scannel at hooker at this stage.

Last year was an incredible one for Irish rugby, but looking at the profile of the team, you increasingly get the view it was a last hurrah for a lot of players who are now moving past their prime.

Remove best and the average age is 29. That's the same as NZ when they won in 2015.

troyzer · 08-02-2019 7:59am

wittycynic wrote: »

Selection for this match is a big of a missed opportunity to bring in some younger players with a view towards the autumn.

At the next World Cup the age profile of (arguably) our first fifteen will be:

Cian Healy (32)
Rory Best (37)
Tadgh Furlong (26)
James Ryan (23)
Devin Toner (33)
Peter O'Mahony (30)
Sean O'Brien (32)
CJ Stander (29)

Conor Murray (30)
Johnny Sexton (34)
Keith Earls (32)
Bundee Aki (29)
Garry Ringrose (24)
Jacob Stockdale (23)
Rob Kearney (33)

That's nine players in their 30s, with four 33 or over, and an average team age of 30. The cumulative effect of all this is a team that won't have the same ability to get through work, or recover, as one even two or three years younger on average.

While Schmidt's hands are tied around experimentation at second row in a sense, abandoning the Henshaw at full back idea after one game (dropped players under Schmidt routinely appear to have picked up a face-saving knock) and failing to give time to Larmour at full back are errors. As is not looking to Scannel at hooker at this stage.

Last year was an incredible one for Irish rugby, but looking at the profile of the team, you increasingly get the view it was a last hurrah for a lot of players who are now moving past their prime.

Even though I can't fully appreciate it being Irish and on the inside as it were, I have to laugh at the ludicrous overreaction of a single defeat to one of the best teams in the world who badly wanted it.

It's madness.

sydthebeat · 08-02-2019 8:19am

tmc1963 wrote: »

Can I ask if these are widely held views - it's just that they seem a bit dismissive.

Of the list of injuries, it's difficult to point to any player that would make a first choice 23 other than the two players mentioned. ZF and FB in the front row probably would as well.
After that they are mostly fringe squad players, or break glass players. (though I do like mcguigan myself as a player)

I don't agree that from 1-10 we are stronger in every position, I think that's too simplistic. For example I would take the Scottish second row over ours tomorrow, even with James Ryan in there.

The game plan for Ireland tomorrow should be quite simple.... Cut out their tempo in defense by hitting up hard and fast... Put Russell under pressure in distribution.... Disrupt their breakdown ball by being bastards (POM, Best and SOB here)

In attack then we absolutely stick with what we are good at. Retain the ball. Power up into them. Rain down kicks onto their back three with hard presses. Their defensive line doesn't have the hard hitters that England do, so aki, farrell, conan, SOB etc sprigs be trying to power break the gain line with faster ball outside while they are on the back foot...

BAM! uhavechlamydia · 08-02-2019 8:43am

I'm really looking forward to the game now... Delighted for Farrell and hoping he rips up trees and gives Joe another headache going forward with his WC squad

bilston · 08-02-2019 8:43am

ClanofLams wrote: »

Wouldn't be overly confident, the number of changes make it hard to have much cohesion. Big chance for Conan and Roux, the former to potentially make a case for a starting position, although he will need to be excellent for the remainder of the 6N given how consistent Stander has been and the latter to solidify his place in the squad.

Roux has improved a lot over the last couple of years, think he will go well, the only fault I would have with him is he can give away silly penalties but hopefully that won't happen. The criticism of him last week on here was bizarre, someone suggested he should never see a squad again or something daft like that, how they reached that conclusion was beyond my understanding.

The game probably hinges on Murray and Sexton, if they are back to somewhere approaching their best, Ireland should be fine. But if they're anything like last week it could be a long afternoon.

The game, as always, hinges on our pack. They lay the platform. For all the criticism Murray and Sexton got after last week, it should be remembered that they were playing behind a pack that lost just about every area of the game to their English counterparts. Amy half back will struggle in that scenario.

bilston · 08-02-2019 8:46am

wittycynic wrote: »

Selection for this match is a big of a missed opportunity to bring in some younger players with a view towards the autumn.

At the next World Cup the age profile of (arguably) our first fifteen will be:

Cian Healy (32)
Rory Best (37)
Tadgh Furlong (26)
James Ryan (23)
Devin Toner (33)
Peter O'Mahony (30)
Sean O'Brien (32)
CJ Stander (29)

Conor Murray (30)
Johnny Sexton (34)
Keith Earls (32)
Bundee Aki (29)
Garry Ringrose (24)
Jacob Stockdale (23)
Rob Kearney (33)

That's nine players in their 30s, with four 33 or over, and an average team age of 30. The cumulative effect of all this is a team that won't have the same ability to get through work, or recover, as one even two or three years younger on average.

While Schmidt's hands are tied around experimentation at second row in a sense, abandoning the Henshaw at full back idea after one game (dropped players under Schmidt routinely appear to have picked up a face-saving knock) and failing to give time to Larmour at full back are errors. As is not looking to Scannel at hooker at this stage.

Last year was an incredible one for Irish rugby, but looking at the profile of the team, you increasingly get the view it was a last hurrah for a lot of players who are now moving past their prime.

Experienced teams win world cups. Our age profile is grand.

bilston · 08-02-2019 8:50am

molloyjh wrote: »

My biggest concern isn’t in selection, it’s the attitude. If they show up looking as lethargic as they did last week we’ll lose. Get our heads right and we should win.

This.

At the moment I'm of the opinion that last week could be the best thing that ever happened to us. It showed the players can never be complacent and always have to be at the top of their game, as everyone will be gunning for them.

If they have learnt that lesson then I don't expect a repeat again.

Of course if we lose again tomorrow then I will start considering hitting the panic button!

Buer · 08-02-2019 9:35am

wittycynic wrote: »

Selection for this match is a big of a missed opportunity to bring in some younger players with a view towards the autumn.

At the next World Cup the age profile of (arguably) our first fifteen will be:

Cian Healy (32)
Rory Best (37)
Tadgh Furlong (26)
James Ryan (23)
Devin Toner (33)
Peter O'Mahony (30)
Sean O'Brien (32)
CJ Stander (29)

Conor Murray (30)
Johnny Sexton (34)
Keith Earls (32)
Bundee Aki (29)
Garry Ringrose (24)
Jacob Stockdale (23)
Rob Kearney (33)

That's nine players in their 30s, with four 33 or over, and an average team age of 30. The cumulative effect of all this is a team that won't have the same ability to get through work, or recover, as one even two or three years younger on average.

Did one of the rugby podcasts not do an analysis of the RWC winning teams in recent months and come to the "revelation" that they all had quite a high average age? Teams that win tournaments are teams that have been together for a long time, have lots of experience in their key players and have very, very few bolters who are just into the first team that year.

Squidgy Black · 08-02-2019 9:46am

Considering this was the last RWC winning starting 15, I don't think there's a massive difference age wise.

Joe Moody (26)
Dane Coles (28)
Owen Frank's (27)
Brodie Retallick (23)
Sam Whitelock (26)
Jerome Kaino (31)
Richie McCaw (34)
Kieran Read (29)
Aaron Smith (26)
Dan Carter (33)
Julian Savea (25)
Ma'a Nonu (33)
Conrad Smith (33)
Milner-Skudder (24)
Ben Smith (29)

aloooof · 08-02-2019 9:53am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Considering this was the last RWC winning starting 15, I don't think there's a massive difference age wise.

Joe Moody (26)
Dane Coles (28)
Owen Frank's (27)
Brodie Retallick (23)
Sam Whitelock (26)
Jerome Kaino (31)
Richie McCaw (34)
Kieran Read (29)
Aaron Smith (26)
Dan Carter (33)
Julian Savea (25)
Ma'a Nonu (33)
Conrad Smith (33)
Milner-Skudder (24)
Ben Smith (29)

I actually think our age distribution looks pretty good, when you factor in key positions.

Compares reasonably well to above, but the big difference there is in the front 5.

Buer · 08-02-2019 9:59am

aloooof wrote: »

I actually think our age distribution looks pretty good, when you factor in key positions.

Compares reasonably well to above, but the big difference there is in the front 5.

It does but keep in mind Tony Woodcock who was almost 35 was their first choice prop and got injured earlier in the tournament. They also had the 36 year old Kevin Mealamu and 31 year old Ben Franks on the bench.

It's all much of a muchness.

ClanofLams · 08-02-2019 10:00am

bilston wrote: »

The game, as always, hinges on our pack. They lay the platform. For all the criticism Murray and Sexton got after last week, it should be remembered that they were playing behind a pack that lost just about every area of the game to their English counterparts. Amy half back will struggle in that scenario.

As I clarified in a later post, I expect Irelands pack to have parity at worst. Agree that it was a difficult situation behind a beaten pack last week but they were still a long way off form, Murray hasn't been back to his best since his return from what I have seen and Sexton has only played two games in six weeks or so, both of which he struggled in.

If they deliver performances of a similar standard this week as last, Ireland will struggle unless it's completely a one sided affair up front.

6n 2019 Scotland Vs Ireland build up thread

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