Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Mr Tickle · 25-02-2019 3:58pm

Clegg wrote: »

Leinster's injury update suggests that Ringrose might be back for the France game, but that Leavy won't take any part in the Six Nations. We're dying for creativity in midfield so having Ringrose back will benefit us hugely. Could we used Leavy's exemplary work at the breakdown buy it wasn't to be

Our midfield is arguably something that i wouldn't be too harsh on this week. once we lost Bundee we ended up with two guys playing out of position, albeit the ones they were presumably prepared to cover in that event.

I'm not a fan of having earls cover 13 outside of an emergency but i thought he did pretty well considering. Similarly Farrell wasn't in his preferred position either and had to do the crash-ball job that Bundee and Henshaw usually do.
It wasn't really a chance for either of them to shine.

Buer · 25-02-2019 4:07pm

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I'm not a fan of having earls cover 13 outside of an emergency but i thought he did pretty well considering. Similarly Farrell wasn't in his preferred position either and had to do the crash-ball job that Bundee and Henshaw usually do.
It wasn't really a chance for either of them to shine.

He did well and had a good game but he was dismal for the first try. I don't know what he was doing and it was compounded by a pretty pathetic effort from Kearney after the line break as well as Furlong giving Hayward no more than a tickle before Earls got back.

We really only have a couple of guys capable of defending the 13 channel. Ringrose is fast becoming a critical player for Ireland as much through not playing as anything he has done on the field.

who_me · 25-02-2019 4:09pm

(Very late to the BP-win-but-it's-Italy-so-let's-self-flagellate action, but I hate missing out!

)

IMO, neither Sexton nor Murray seem to be 100%.

Sexton seems to spend much of the game laid out on the ground - much of the time it's because he (bravely, IMO) draws the tackler in before releasing the pass, ensuring he gets thumped. On one occasion though he was flattened by a front-row running back from an offside position.

Murray I don't think is fully up to his best either. Did well on the try and the goal-kicking; but IMO part of the problem with our attacking game is the backline can't really run onto the ball at pace if they don't know how long the 9 is going to take getting the ball away. Murray - on form - is a metronome, but I think we need him to tick a bit quicker.

I thought Earls and Stockdale looked dangerous throughout. Throughout Earls' early years his promise came from attacking the line from deep, it's great to see him increasingly being used like that.

Impressed with Dillane; one thing I like was the quality of his presentation when tackled. You can turn a bog-standard carry into a good one if you present the ball quickly and away from contact (easier if you're a lanky lock) and he did that very well throughout.

Thought we missed Stander, then Aki, and Farrell didn't seem right all game (carrying an injury?). These would be our go-to guys for getting across the line and setting up a platform and it didn't really happen. I thought Kilcoyne did well at that, in fits and starts.

Overall we seem a bit too slow, narrow and predictable lately. Our kicking game (box kick 'til I die) gives the opposition too much time to retreat and regroup, we need to kick smarter and mix it up. I wonder if there's a case to try some radical calls at 9 & 10.

Mr Tickle · 25-02-2019 4:28pm

Buer wrote: »

He did well and had a good game but he was dismal for the first try. I don't know what he was doing and it was compounded by a pretty pathetic effort from Kearney after the line break as well as Furlong giving Hayward no more than a tickle before Earls got back.

We really only have a couple of guys capable of defending the 13 channel. Ringrose is fast becoming a critical player for Ireland as much through not playing as anything he has done on the field.

Well I agree that Ringrose is probably our best defender in that channel. Chris Farrell is good there too though so when he's at 13 i'm not worried. We haven't got many other regular starters there. Tom Farrell maybe but I'd be surprised if he gets a look in.

Dubinusa · 25-02-2019 4:49pm

A few years back in Paris, we dominated France for 50 odd minutes and put up 9 points!
We lost that one.
2015 in Cardiff, we spent the last 10 or so minutes in the Welch 3rd of the field. Phase after phase, one out runners. One foot forward, a meter back. We lost that one also.

A good box kicking game with superior chasers can turn a game on it's head.
But, it's expected and defended well.

On Murray, J.S appears to want him to play himself back to form. Jack Mc Grath is also struggling and he's been lining out for Leinster to try and regain form? Why can't Murray play in Munster to get himself right? It's absurd!

Sexton clamors up off the grass, places his bollocks back into his jocks and limps after the play! Yet, he's still left on.

I think Heaslip's last match was an international? J.S inserted him into the lineup and he may have been injured? His career ended with a whimper.

J.S may be too loyal to players and unwilling to use others, to the detriment of the incumbent, imo.

Our depth is being seriously tested. I think that's great!
Our game plan has not really varied and it's telling.
I know that the injuries can be used as an excuse etc but, if we can't get over the gain line consistently and our 9 is having guys receive the ball from a stationary start, we should change our 9?

Anyway, 2 wins whilst playing like a goats Micky is a decent return.
There's not much time to get the house in order and if we don't mix things up a little, I think Japan will be a disaster.

I think Cronin, at best has solidified himself as an impact sub. This is what I expected. It's a shame though, as our dependence on Best looks more likely.

France will offer us a madcap match. They may completely blitz us like they did Wales and then crap the bed. It's the kind of match that's not ideal for a side struggling to find form and get the structures in place.
But, it's a golden chance to stretch our resolve and see how we rebound.

We are a structure 1st side, a committed to the game plan team. As our structure struggles and fails, we will learn and are learning a lot about our team and the coaching.

We need to be able to play what's in front of us, if the system fails. Heads up counter attacking and developing a secondary plan is paramount to being successful.

I think in the long run, this 6nations will be a blessing. So much turmoil and forced changes. It's a fantastic scenario to test our weaknesses and our depth.

J.S may leave things as they are? But, he couldn't ask for a better worst case scenario to involve different plans. Player and structure.

Akrasia · 25-02-2019 4:59pm

who_me wrote: »

Overall we seem a bit too slow, narrow and predictable lately. Our kicking game (box kick 'til I die) gives the opposition too much time to retreat and regroup, we need to kick smarter and mix it up. I wonder if there's a case to try some radical calls at 9 & 10.

I haven't watched the game again (I'm not a massochist) But I don't remember Ireland kicking the ball away very much in that game at all.

The stats are that Ireland kicked from hand 13 times to Italy's 14

Compared to recent games, Ireland v NZ, Ireland kicked 30 times from hand in that game.

We also kicked 31 times in the Ireland v England game (that we shall no longer speak about), Ireland v Scotland 24 kicks from hand.

Was Joe targeting the Italy game to try out a different gameplan that involved less kicking?

Maybe this might explain why Murray was more ponderous than usual if he was fighting his instinct to go for the Box kicks when he thought they were good options.

Dubinusa · 25-02-2019 5:05pm

That is strange. It might be a different type of game plan?
Maybe, Sexton wasn't right and was carrying a knock?

WeleaseWoderick · 25-02-2019 5:19pm

I thought throughout the game that we could have done with kicking a bit more often. The Italian line speed (on the edge of legality) was due to knowing that we weren't likely to kick from hand apart from box kicking.

I can only really think of Earls' ricochetted kick on the wing in terms of any kicking options tried.

The team is underperforming but I don't think it's far from coming right. I'd like to see Cooney or Marmion start against France as Conor Murray doesn't look himself at the moment. That change and getting Ringrose back in the team would make a big difference.

We're also seeing the value of CJ Stander to the team in his absence. He gets through a mountain of work tidying up messy ball and turning slow ball into small gains to reset the offside line.

I think even with a good win against France, we'll be going to Cardiff as underdogs. I really think this team will thrive in that type of environment.

stephen_n · 25-02-2019 5:31pm

Zzippy wrote: »

I think the ball was too high to be caught anyway. Also, it's the hooker who needs to read the move and know when to throw to reach the jumper at their peak. If Cronin threw too late that's on him. The lads can't stay up in the air for ever.
I'm sure there will be collective responsibility for the lineout malfunction, and maybe when the hooker was not throwing well we should have adjusted and simplified, so I'm sure Roux will shoulder some of the blame in the video review.

I think in that first lineout the Pod failed and Cronin failed. Yes Roux could have called a simpler option which would have made it easier. We don’t however know what the call from Sexton was and where the ball was required to end up. The truth is lineout’s are complicated business with many moving parts. That one seemed to me to fail on many fronts.

Buer · 25-02-2019 5:41pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I think in that first lineout the Pod failed and Cronin failed. Yes Roux could have called a simpler option which would have made it easier. We don’t however know what the call from Sexton was and where the ball was required to end up. The truth is lineout’s are complicated business with many moving parts. That one seemed to me to fail on many fronts.

I'd be surprised if that wasn't going straight into a maul. Both midfielders were in the line out. You can see the players starting to come around the jumping pod as it goes to the air to start setting it up and SOB going into position to take control of the ball from POM.

stephen_n · 25-02-2019 5:43pm

Buer wrote: »

I'd be surprised if that wasn't going straight into a maul. Both midfielders were in the line out. You can see the players starting to come around the jumping pod as it goes to the air to start setting it up and SOB going into position to take control of the ball from POM.

Distinct possibility but that call would be made by either Sexton or POM.

The Rape of Lucretia · 25-02-2019 10:24pm

Former Former wrote: »

My big concern is that we're three games into the Six Nations and I'm not sure we've really learned anything.

Questions we're no closer to answering:
- Who's the backup fullback?
- What's the best midfield combo?
- Can Carbery step up?
- Who's the second best hooker?
- Hendo or Toner?

While unexpected questions have been raised, I think all those questions have been answered :
- Its not Henshaw being the key bit. Conway/Larmour ex aequo, as was.
- Henshaw Ringrose. Always was. Only moving H to 15 opened the question. As per above, that is now closed.
- Moot anyway. If he has to step in, he has to step in.
- Cronin
- Horses for courses. Both have a roles to play.

molloyjh · 25-02-2019 11:01pm

Former Former wrote: »

Questions we're no closer to answering:
- Who's the backup fullback?
- What's the best midfield combo?
- Can Carbery step up?
- Who's the second best hooker?
- Hendo or Toner?

- No clue. Big issue at the moment.
- Henshaw & Ringrose. Aki is a very close second at 12, but Robbie offers a kicking option that I don’t think Aki does.
- In smaller games yes, in bigger games no. He just doesn’t have the experience yet, and couldn’t really given his age etc.
- Cronin. Judging a guy on a single performance when the entire team is misfiring badly doesn’t make sense. Nothing that has happened this 6Ns really changed anything. Scannell can push ahead if he can get a good run with Munster, but he isn’t ahead right now.
- Toner 100% of the time. We saw in the Autumn, when we were still performing as a group, the massive difference in the line out when Hendo replaced Toner.

Shefwedfan · 25-02-2019 11:11pm

I can send on postcard but

Questions we're no closer to answering:
- Who's the backup fullback? Kearney, Larmour, Henshaw, Addison, Conway
- What's the best midfield combo? Henshaw and Ringrose
- Can Carbery step up? Step up to what? International rugby? he has played loads before this 6 nations to say he can
- Who's the second best hooker? Cronin
- Hendo or Toner? depends on the opposition

clsmooth · 25-02-2019 11:25pm

I think Toner starts ahead of Henderson. I think he gives a bit of confidence to our hookers who aren’t brilliant with the darts under pressure and Henderson off the bench gives a lot of impact. Could still fit in at 6 off the bench too in a pinch although I’m not sure when he last played back row.

Akrasia · 25-02-2019 11:37pm

molloyjh wrote: »

- No clue. Big issue at the moment.
- Henshaw & Ringrose. Aki is a very close second at 12, but Robbie offers a kicking option that I don’t think Aki does.
- In smaller games yes, in bigger games no. He just doesn’t have the experience yet, and couldn’t really given his age etc.
- Cronin. Judging a guy on a single performance when the entire team is misfiring badly doesn’t make sense. Nothing that has happened this 6Ns really changed anything. Scannell can push ahead if he can get a good run with Munster, but he isn’t ahead right now.
- Toner 100% of the time. We saw in the Autumn, when we were still performing as a group, the massive difference in the line out when Hendo replaced Toner.

Conway can play fullback and cover both wings

Shefwedfan · 25-02-2019 11:56pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Conway can play fullback and cover both wings

Larmour and Addison look to be ahead of Conway

Paul Smeenus · 25-02-2019 11:56pm

molloyjh wrote: »

-
- Toner 100% of the time. We saw in the Autumn, when we were still performing as a group, the massive difference in the line out when Hendo replaced Toner.

Except, like, when we're in the course of winning a Grand Slam and we're playing away in Twickenham. Hendo can start ahead of Toner then, call the lineout and we can win 11/11.

Shefwedfan · 25-02-2019 11:57pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Except, like, when we're in the course of winning a Grand Slam and we're playing away in Twickenham. Hendo can start ahead of Toner then, call the lineout and we can win 11/11.

Hendo was a big loss for the England game

Toner is better for some games and hendo for others

Paul Smeenus · 25-02-2019 11:58pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hendo was a big loss for the England game

Toner is better for some games and hendo for others

Agreed.

Shefwedfan · 26-02-2019 12:02am

Has everyone suddenly forgot all the work over last 4 years????

The questions above you could understand 3 years ago but today? The squad is settled, the form isn’t great but we suddenly don’t have an awful team.....

diusmr8a504cvk · 26-02-2019 1:05am

Hi lads, obviously nobody knows for certain but who are the next outsiders that are earmarked to be called up to Ireland through the residency rule.
Cheers!

errlloyd · 26-02-2019 1:13am

Nathanael Fat Maroon wrote: »

Hi lads, obviously nobody knows for certain but who are the next outsiders that are earmarked to be called up to Ireland through the residency rule.
Cheers!

Jean Kleyn
Jamison Gibson Park
James Lowe

Are the unqualified players who are most likely to pick up caps once they become qualified IMO.

Tyler Bleyendaal is currently qualified and yet to be capped, but if he somehow regains his 2016-17 form soon he might well get capped.

case885 · 26-02-2019 10:40am

errlloyd wrote:

Jean Kleyn Jamison Gibson Park James Lowe

And Rhys Marshall is qualified in October too.

troyzer · 26-02-2019 10:42am

case885 wrote: »

And Rhys Marshall is qualified in October too.

I'd be surprised if he gets an Ireland cap.

case885 · 26-02-2019 10:45am

troyzer wrote:

I'd be surprised if he gets an Ireland cap.

I wouldn't, hooker isn't exactly an area of strength for us at the moment and best may be finished post world cup so I can see him becoming an option.

Former Former · 26-02-2019 10:47am

Nathanael Fat Maroon wrote: »

Hi lads, obviously nobody knows for certain but who are the next outsiders that are earmarked to be called up to Ireland through the residency rule.
Cheers!

Gibson Park and Kleyn will be eligible just in time for the World Cup.

Rhys Marshall qualifies right after it.

Then James Lowe and Chris Cloete in November 2020 I think and that's pretty much it for a while.

troyzer · 26-02-2019 10:51am

case885 wrote: »

I wouldn't, hooker isn't exactly an area of strength for us at the moment and best may be finished post world cup so I can see him becoming an option.

I mean, he has a shot. But he's not even starting for Munster and I wouldn't say he's the pick of the litter among the seconds either.

Buer · 26-02-2019 11:16am

troyzer wrote: »

I mean, he has a shot. But he's not even starting for Munster and I wouldn't say he's the pick of the litter among the seconds either.

Look at the guys who have picked up caps for Ireland in the last 3-4 years despite Best having the position locked down.

Cronin, Herring, Scannell, Tracy, Heffernan, Strauss all collected caps in that period. If you're getting significant game time for a province whether in a starting position or not, you're very likely to be capped.

I'd expect Marshall and Delahunt both to be capped in the next 2 years given Best will be retired and there will be a certain amount of rebuilding underway.

b.gud · 26-02-2019 11:17am

Former Former wrote: »

Gibson Park and Kleyn will be eligible just in time for the World Cup.

Rhys Marshall qualifies right after it.

Then James Lowe and Chris Cloete in November 2020 I think and that's pretty much it for a while.

Jarrad Butler will be IQ then too. Given our strength in the back row I doubt he'll pick up a cap but just pointing out for completeness

Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

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