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Biological males in women's sport

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    #1892
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    The sad thing is for the 2020 Olympics, this is all playing by the rules. The IOC really messed up here and they know it.


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    #1893
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,127 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    maybe the paralympics, they are classified by severity of impairment, with 1 being most impaired and 6 or 8 being least impaired (depending on sport). maybe they could add 9 for not impaired, and 10 and 11 for trans athletes...

    And dont forget those able bodied people who self ID as disabled, cant exclude them


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    #1894
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Some good news from the Connecticut case:

    https://apnews.com/5c1d9682fb92ed9c277c7e139bdab9ed
    US: Transgender sports inclusion violates others’ rights

    Connecticut’s policy allowing transgender girls to compete as girls in high school sports violates the civil rights of athletes who have always identified as female, the U.S. Education Department has determined in a decision that could force the state to change course to keep federal funding and influence others to do the same.


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    #1895
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Some good news from the Connecticut case:

    https://apnews.com/5c1d9682fb92ed9c277c7e139bdab9ed


    Great news however the reportage is still bound to ideological nonsense!
    "...violates the civil rights of athletes who have always identified as female"


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    #1896
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    Great news however the reportage is still bound to ideological nonsense!
    "...violates the civil rights of athletes who have always identified as female"

    I know. And earlier on, the judge in the case said “referring to these ­individuals as ‘transgender ­females’ is consistent with science, common practice and perhaps human decency.”

    Science? :eek:


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    #1897
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    For any newcomers to this case who are interested, this is what we're talking about here. Very illustrative.

    https://twitter.com/SaveWomensSport/status/1119378068441837568?s=20


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    #1898
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    Great news however the reportage is still bound to ideological nonsense!
    "...violates the civil rights of athletes who have always identified as female"

    Yes, but it shows a recognition that to beat these people you have to play them at their own game.


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    #1899
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    For any newcomers to this case who are interested, this is what we're talking about here. Very illustrative.

    https://twitter.com/SaveWomensSport/status/1119378068441837568?s=20

    Wow that really shows how marked the difference is. The female competitors aren't even close. Even the person who came last would be justified in feeling cheated.


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    #1900
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    Wow that really shows how marked the difference is. The female competitors aren't even close. Even the person who came last would be justified in feeling cheated.

    It really does neatly demonstrate the two tiers. In the race between the biological females, there are differences between competitors but it’s all within a range. Whereas the first and second placed competitors have leads the likes of which we saw in testosterone-pumped East German swimmers.


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    #1901
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Great result in Connecticut ...

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the coming years, when you have the likes of the UN pushing one agenda, what way will the International Sport Organisations react as the issue become's more prevalent.

    You'd hope sanity will prevail but I'm not so sure!


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    #1902
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Great result in Connecticut ...

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the coming years, when you have the likes of the UN pushing one agenda, what way will the International Sport Organisations react as the issue become's more prevalent.

    You'd hope sanity will prevail but I'm not so sure!

    My feeling is that this is something that most people object to or at least will, especially when they see arresting visuals like the above video. It’s flown under the radar a bit until recently but as it gets exposed to the sunlight more and more, it’s being revealed as the farce it is.

    That’s just my own hunch and maybe I’m wrong. But I hope I’m not.


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    #1903
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    My feeling is that this is something that most people object to or at least will, especially when they see arresting visuals like the above video. It’s flown under the radar a bit until recently but as it gets exposed to the sunlight more and more, it’s being revealed as the farce it is.

    That’s just my own hunch and maybe I’m wrong. But I hope I’m not.

    The vast majority of people just want to watch or participate in what they consider to be fair competition...as it should be.

    But there are a lot of International Organisations with skin in this game, this issue is heavily politicized...and will become moreso in the coming years.


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    #1904
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    The vast majority of people just want to watch or participate in what they consider to be fair competition...as it should be.

    But there are a lot of International Organisations with skin in this game, this issue is heavily politicized...and will become moreso in the coming years.

    I don’t know about other sporting bodies but reading between the lines, I get the feeling that the IOC knows it done fucked with the parameters it put in place for transgender athletes. They are far too broad. Though personally I think only biological females should be allowed to compete in the women’s category (I guess except people who transitioned before puberty but that’s a whole other quagmire). And ditto for biological men but that’s not really an issue and we all know why.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/24/ioc-delays-new-transgender-guidelines-2020-olympics


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    #1905
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    If this sort of thing continues unchecked (Connecticut aside) are we going to see an arms race amoungst the top female athletes with doping to the extreme just to compete with this "women"


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    #1906
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    If this sort of thing continues unchecked (Connecticut aside) are we going to see an arms race amoungst the top female athletes with doping to the extreme just to compete with this "women"

    Doping is a can of worms no one wants to talk about....it's already a huge part of professional sport!


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    #1907
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Doping is a can of worms no one wants to talk about....it's already a huge part of professional sport!

    Agreed, but it will surely increase massively within women's sport if men are allowed compete


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    #1908
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,906 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    If by birth, you are a male.... you should only be able to compete in male sporting events. If you’ve had surgery that changed parts of your anatomy to make you aesthetically look like or seem like a woman, you are not a woman, you are a man who looks like a woman, you have been ‘physically’ augmented to appear to be a woman.. fine... your genetic and general physical makeup still will enable you to outperform a great number of women in professional sport should you be given the opportunity to...you shouldn’t in my view be furnished with that opportunity.

    It works in reverse too..


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    #1909
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Doping is a can of worms no one wants to talk about....it's already a huge part of professional sport!

    That’s true. I think many top athletes are doping. Allowing biological males to compete with biological females is basically allowing cheating so how can PEDs be banned in such circumstances? I hate the thought of female athletes destroying their bodies with drugs in a desperate attempt to keep up. I’m hopeful that nobody will do that. It won’t bridge the gap and they will probably destroy their health in trying.


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    #1910
    Madeleine Birchfield
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Madeleine Birchfield


    Why couldn't there a third category of sports for transgender athletes?


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    #1911
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Careful now. Having a contrarian opinion gets threads closed as the usual "generic trans bashing". Never mind the ongoing bashing of girls and women that has taken place in many realms - in this case sport. Natal girls have lost out awards, victories, privacy, sporting ambitions, perhaps even scholarships and education. Certainly women like Martina Navratalova and Sharron Davies have been publicly abused by trans rights activists for defending girls and women in sex based sporting categories. And many ordinary anonymous women attempting to defend their sex based spaces have also been horribly abused and threatened with everything from rape to death. But shush.


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    #1912
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,127 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    Careful now. Having a contrarian opinion gets threads closed as the usual "generic trans bashing". Never mind the ongoing bashing of girls and women that has taken place in many realms - in this case sport. Natal girls have lost out awards, victories, privacy, sporting ambitions, perhaps even scholarships and education. Certainly women like Martina Navratalova and Sharron Davies have been publicly abused by trans rights activists for defending girls and women in sex based sporting categories. And many ordinary anonymous women attempting to defend their sex based spaces have also been horribly abused and threatened with everything from rape to death. But shush.

    Yep. And its always women who are targeted and who lose out. Its almost like there are people who hate women out there and use any cause to further this. But no, it can't be it that can it? Whats more important is that we shut up, be nice and don't hurt anyone's feelings


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    #1913
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »
    Why couldn't there a third category of sports for transgender athletes?

    I’m guessing that there would not be quite enough athletes to make it competitive. AND of course, excluding transgender women from the women’s categories is LITERALLY DENYING THEIR EXISTENCE or some such hyperbole.


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    #1914
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »
    Why couldn't there a third category of sports for transgender athletes?
    Because that would mean admitting that trans women are not women in exactly the same way as biological women and that is verboten.


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    #1915
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Yep. And its always women who are targeted and who lose out. Its almost like there are people who hate women out there and use any cause to further this. But no, it can't be it that can it? Whats more important is that we shut up, be nice and don't hurt anyone's feelings
    If only women could just 'be kind' there wouldn't be a problem. It's all our own fault for getting so uppity about sex based rights.


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    #1916
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Gruffalox wrote: »
    Careful now. Having a contrarian opinion gets threads closed as the usual "generic trans bashing". Never mind the ongoing bashing of girls and women that has taken place in many realms - in this case sport. Natal girls have lost out awards, victories, privacy, sporting ambitions, perhaps even scholarships and education. Certainly women like Martina Navratalova and Sharron Davies have been publicly abused by trans rights activists for defending girls and women in sex based sporting categories. And many ordinary anonymous women attempting to defend their sex based spaces have also been horribly abused and threatened with everything from rape to death. But shush.

    If we keep it on-topic, the sports issue, then it will tough to lock the thread. ;) And this is very much a topical, ongoing issue. If it does end up locked, that will be interesting.


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    #1917
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Strumms wrote: »
    If by birth, you are a male.... you should only be able to compete in male sporting events. If you’ve had surgery that changed parts of your anatomy to make you aesthetically look like or seem like a woman, you are not a woman, you are a man who looks like a woman, you have been ‘physically’ augmented to appear to be a woman.. fine... your genetic and general physical makeup still will enable you to outperform a great number of women in professional sport should you be given the opportunity to...you shouldn’t in my view be furnished with that opportunity.

    It works in reverse too..
    According to trans rights activists you were either born in the wrong body or assigned the wrong sex at birth, no matter what genitalia you have. You do not need to have any surgery or hormone therapy to identify as whichever sex you choose, you just fill out a gender recognition form.
    For athletes incorrectly assigned male at birth they would need to lower their hormone levels to compete against those female athletes who were luckily assigned their correct sex at birth. The former would still have all the physical traits such as generally being taller, faster, stronger, leaner, bigger heart, lungs etc but lowering testosterone negates all that.


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    #1918
    Madeleine Birchfield
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Madeleine Birchfield


    ingalway wrote: »
    According to trans rights activists you were either born in the wrong body or assigned the wrong sex at birth, no matter what genitalia you have. You do not need to have any surgery or hormone therapy to identify as whichever sex you choose, you just fill out a gender recognition form.

    How do trans rights activists deal with people who don't wish to identify with either gender?


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    #1919
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    ingalway wrote: »
    Because that would mean admitting that trans women are not women in exactly the same way as biological women and that is verboten.

    This is an excellent point. It can’t and won’t be conceded. So, women will have to continue challenging it like those very courageous Connecticut teenagers. Anywhere it’s been reported, the support for them seems to be overwhelming though which is so heartening to witness.


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    #1920
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »
    How do trans rights activists deal with people who don't wish to identify with either gender?
    Non binary


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    #1921
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Yep. And its always women who are targeted and who lose out. Its almost like there are people who hate women out there and use any cause to further this. But no, it can't be it that can it? Whats more important is that we shut up, be nice and don't hurt anyone's feelings

    You do know that Feminists will be one of the groups that will shut down any debate with you on this topic right?


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