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How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

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    #842
    freak scence
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 442 ✭✭freak scence


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/children-and-school-settings-covid-19-transmission

    Investigations of cases identified in school settings suggest that child to child transmission in schools is uncommon and not the primary cause of SARS-CoV-2 infection in children whose onset of infection coincides with the period during which they are attending school, particularly in preschools and primary schools.

    suggest :eek: , I suggest you get proper material. instead of muppets make up crap


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    #843
    Murple
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    average_runner wrote: »
    Right now look at the facts.
    Kids are out playing, kids are playing sports where physical contact and then the messing they do.

    Still no spike from it.

    But have any of those children been diagnosed with Covid?
    Think of headlice . You could have 20 children happily playing, heads together all summer and not have a single case of head lice. One child goes off to stay with friends and gets headlice but doesn’t realise. Arrives back to play with the other 19 again and all of a sudden, headlice spreads through them all.
    There has to be a case to start it off.


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    #844
    Murple
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    average_runner wrote: »
    Sounds frightening, but kids aren't spreading thr virus , the bigger risks will be teachers spreading to other teachers, like Germany

    So how do you explain what happened in the camp in Georgia. 51% of the 6-10 year olds tested positive, 44% of the 11-17s tested positive and 33% of the 18-21 year olds tested positive. There were 7 over 22 years and 2 of them tested positive.
    Are you saying that all infections were an adult to adult and adult to child but no child to adult or child to child?


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    #845
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Blondini wrote: »
    Very high risk/cocooning staff catered for but just 'high risk' staff have no special provision effectively.

    Harsh enough.

    By the time consultant reports are available and staff go through the Medmark process it will leave schools little or no time to find replacements. The circular should have been issued much earlier.


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    #846
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    i_surge wrote: »
    Go on strike

    Did you think that up all by yourself or did you read it on twitter #notanoriginalthought


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    #847
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    This covers children 0-5 years of age
    https://www.sciencealert.com/study-suggests-young-children-are-carrying-higher-levels-of-coronavirus

    Between March 23 and April 27, researchers carried out nasal swab tests on 145 Chicago patients with mild to moderate illness within one week of symptom onset.

    The patients were divided in three groups: 46 children younger than five-years-old, 51 children aged five to 17 years, and 48 adults aged 18 to 65 years.

    South Korea study which Mike Ryan of the WHO referenced in chat with Sarah McInerney the other day acknowledging that children 10-12 and teenagers played a role in the spread and had a responsibility to stop it spreading. He mentioned it about 47 minutes into interview.

    Here is the New York Times article about the stidy which is linked in the article.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/health/coronavirus-children-schools.html


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    #848
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Ludo wrote: »
    Face covering mandatoru for all students on post-primary regardless of social distancing...

    – Face coverings are recommended that are reusable and washed once every day as is consistent with the recommendation to wear face coverings in other contexts such as on public transport, in shops and indoors where a 2m physical distance cannot be maintained.

    – Students at post primary level, apart from specific exemptions will be required to wear face coverings in the classroom.

    – All staff and students using the post-primary school transport service will be required to wear face coverings on the bus.

    – Staff, including teachers at both primary and post primary levels, who cannot maintain a 2m distance from students or other staff will be required to wear face coverings.

    It should put an end to the nonsense where a number of principals were insisting on no masks for staff.


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    #849
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    Whats Moran Michaels plan for when there is an outbreak/cluster? Because if todays announcements is anything to go by its makes me wonder if the plan will be to close all schools in a county where they have identified and cluster.


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    #850
    freak scence
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 442 ✭✭freak scence


    jrosen wrote: »
    Whats Moran Michaels plan for when there is an outbreak/cluster? Because if todays announcements is anything to go by its makes me wonder if the plan will be to close all schools in a county where they have identified and cluster.

    yep and make them stay at home and eat ham


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    #851
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Did you think that up all by yourself or did you read it on twitter #notanoriginalthought

    Gestated that one myself

    Not on twitter. Cancer of the mind.


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    #852
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    i_surge wrote: »
    Not fit for purpose no matter what way you swing it.

    I am not swinging anything . Can a different opinion not be politely answered ?
    I am simply of the opinion that a visor worn by a Junior Infant teacher might be a better idea


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    #853
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    I am not swinging anything . Can a different opinion not be politely answered ?
    I am simply of the opinion that a visor worn by a Junior Infant teacher might be a better idea

    Ok fine but I am of the opinion that allowing what we know to not work is criminal negligence.

    The whole returning to school plan is.


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    #854
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    I am not swinging anything . Can a different opinion not be politely answered ?
    I am simply of the opinion that a visor worn by a Junior Infant teacher might be a better idea

    I think even with a visor you need a mask. I read some update on that this evening. But yes a visor would be better than nothing


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    #855
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    khalessi wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200806-are-face-shields-effective-against-covid-19

    Need to be used with a mask.

    What about the clear masks like the ones worn for the hard of hearing ? Would they be a good idea for teachers of Junior and Senior infants ?


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    #856
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    jrosen wrote: »
    I think even with a visor you need a mask. I read some update on that this evening. But yes a visor would be better than nothing

    Thanks for the reasonable reply . Admittedly not ideal of course but maybe a clear mask instead ?



    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/people.com/style/clear-face-masks/?amp=true


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    #857
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Thanks for the reasonable reply . Admittedly not ideal of course but maybe a clear mask instead ?



    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/people.com/style/clear-face-masks/%3famp=true

    Yes. A restaurant I ate in had clear masks. Thought they were a great idea.


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    #858
    planetorez
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭planetorez


    jrosen wrote: »
    Yes. A restaurant I ate in had clear masks. Thought they were a great idea.

    Were there up to or over 30 people in the restaurant crammed into a small room at the time or were the nationwide healthcare guidelines followed re actual social distancing in terms of seating arrangements? Restaurant beside me is bigger than a classroom but has three inside tables and wont take bookings for more than six people from a single group including young children. Why do you think that is?


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    #859
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    planetorez wrote: »
    Were there up to or over 30 people in the restaurant crammed into a small room at the time or were the nationwide healthcare guidelines followed re actual social distancing in terms of seating arrangements? Restaurant beside me is bigger than a classroom but has three inside tables and wont take bookings for more than six people from a single group including young children. Why do you think that is?

    We were discussing masks with a clear panel as opposed to a visor . Nothing more , nothing less


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    #860
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Thanks for the reasonable reply . Admittedly not ideal of course but maybe a clear mask instead ?



    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/people.com/style/clear-face-masks/%3famp=true

    Ive been thinking of getting a few of those masks as the children need to be able to see me smiling and laughing. Have been looking at some on etsy, some very good ones


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    #861
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    khalessi wrote: »
    Ive been thinking of getting a few of those masks as the children need to be able to see me smiling and laughing. Have been looking at some on etsy, some very good ones

    Exactly , I think young children rely a lot on facial expressions . I think they are a great idea but hopefully wouldn’t fog up with exhalation


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    #862
    planetorez
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭planetorez


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    We were discussing masks with a clear panel as opposed to a visor . Nothing more , nothing less

    You said "I am simply of the opinion that a visor worn by a Junior Infant teacher might be a better idea".

    I'm sure that they would consider your argument if there were 12 junior infants in the room with them. but sometimes the number will actually be nearer 40 than 30, what good would a visor, clear or otherwise be in terms of stopping the spread of this virus among a community?


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    #863
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    planetorez wrote: »
    You said "I am simply of the opinion that a visor worn by a Junior Infant teacher might be a better idea".

    I'm sure that they would consider your argument if there were 12 junior infants in the room with them. but sometimes the number will actually be nearer 40 than 30, what good would a visor, clear or otherwise be in terms of stopping the spread of this virus among a community?

    Yeh . Fair enough but the post you replied to was about clear speaking masks not visors


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    #864
    Warbeastrior
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭Warbeastrior


    downthemiddle wrote:
    Circular 49/2020 just published

    I can't see anything about mental disorders but I could be missing it.


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    #865
    bettyoleary
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭bettyoleary


    freak scence wrote: »
    yep and make them stay at home and eat ham
    Ham is perhaps not the best thing because of the meat factories. Perhaps carrot cake;)


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    #866
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Very confused, we agreed only a few days ago that the DES were inept, that the schools and BOMs were trying their best. I gave you as much insight into the senior roles as I could as someone intimately involved in the planning in my school. I thought we had come to an agreement and respectful partnership.

    Now you're back firing off about school principals and everything else? What happened to we are all in this together!? What happened to respecting the experts?

    Just because you are unaware of negotiations and discussions doesn't mean they are not happening. The principals had a mass meeting last week sure. If the schools haven't articulated something, it's because it isn't ready to announce yet. This entitlement to know every single thing that is going on is ridiculous, why are you not asking the same of Norma and McHugh? That's where the targeted questioning should occur.

    Parents are partners in education. Schools want to work with them. But the more they treat schools as service providers the more the walls go up.

    Okay, wait a minute here. Parents should not be unaware of what's happening in our children's school just because everything isn't yet finalised. They absolutely can and should reassure parents what they're working on achieving and what the target goals are for the school. If there are any delays or non-workable guidelines, parent's should be involved. Not only do we know what is best for our children and family and all the impacts, but a chance to advocate for them and our schools is being denied. We are entitled to information actually so we can PLAN. And keep our children safe which is our first responsibility and no one else's. If a family has compromised children or parents in a risk group, they need to know NOW if their child's school will not be able to implement the safety guidelines so they can look at all their options. We all need to know if we should be buying extra sanitiser, PPE, or making a different plan altogether for homeschool. My wife is wondering if we should buy the classroom handwash/sanitiser or fundraise for the school (it's small enough) to ensure there's a fund for it to cover everyone. We're flying blind here and our ability and ENTITLEMENT to keep our children safe is being denied by a lack of information from schools.

    When I have been given a project to do at my work, I am expected to keep my upper management team informed throughout. I am expected to manage my colleagues collaboration and hit targets with them by meeting regularly and reviewing work and putting the heads together essentially. What you don't do is take a monumental job that is crucial to the company and keep it tight to your chest with no info, no collaboration or help from anyone, and then ultimately deliver some half-arsed sh!te that fell short and in which no one else had the opportunity to help plan, execute, or ideate. No one had a chance to ring alarm bells and contribute so if it fails, everyone goes down with the ship.

    Absolutely brilliant approach, couldn't have possibly done it in a better, more strategic and professional manner.

    Either parents are partners or they aren't. Last I checked public education is a service and our teachers & principles work in the public service sector. "The walls go up?" Excuse me but they aren't entitled to get their backs up when it comes to our children's and family's safety. Who's best interest is it to put their backs up? It isn't in our children's best interest, is it? Which only highlights the requirement and ENTITLEMENT we have as parents to be informed and included in preparations for schools in a global pandemic. Because we are the ones who always have our children's best interests in mind.


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    #867
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    Okay, wait a minute here. Parents should not be unaware of what's happening in our children's school just because everything isn't yet finalised. They absolutely can and should reassure parents what they're working on achieving and what the target goals are for the school. If there are any delays or non-workable guidelines, parent's should be involved. Not only do we know what is best for our children and family and all the impacts, but a chance to advocate for them and our schools is being denied. We are entitled to information actually so we can PLAN. And keep our children safe which is our first responsibility and no one else's. If a family has compromised children or parents in a risk group, they need to know NOW if their child's school will not be able to implement the safety guidelines so they can look at all their options. We all need to know if we should be buying extra sanitiser, PPE, or making a different plan altogether for homeschool. My wife is wondering if we should buy the classroom handwash/sanitiser or fundraise for the school (it's small enough) to ensure there's a fund for it to cover everyone. We're flying blind here and our ability and ENTITLEMENT to keep our children safe is being denied by a lack of information from schools.

    When I have been given a project to do at my work, I am expected to keep my upper management team informed throughout. I am expected to manage my colleagues collaboration and hit targets with them by meeting regularly and reviewing work and putting the heads together essentially. What you don't do is take a monumental job that is crucial to the company and keep it tight to your chest with no info, no collaboration or help from anyone, and then ultimately deliver some half-arsed sh!te that fell short and in which no one else had the opportunity to help plan, execute, or ideate. No one had a chance to ring alarm bells and contribute so if it fails, everyone goes down with the ship.

    Absolutely brilliant approach, couldn't have possibly done it in a better, more strategic and professional manner.

    Either parents are partners or they aren't. Last I checked public education is a service and our teachers & principles work in the public service sector. "The walls go up?" Excuse me but they aren't entitled to get their backs up when it comes to our children's and family's safety. Who's best interest is it to put their backs up? It isn't in our children's best interest, is it? Which only highlights the requirement and ENTITLEMENT we have as parents to be informed and included in preparations for schools in a global pandemic. Because we are the ones who always have our children's best interests in mind.

    All I'll say is WOW. I was nodding my head in agreement at the start but then all you left out was essentially an "our taxes pay your wages" comment.

    I'll just leave you will this to ponder, schools are also hamstrung by a lack of clarity and information. Further information has been provided yesterday but more to come. Would you release your project into the public domain without it being somewhat fit for public consumption? I know when I worked in the private sector that we wouldn't and didn't.

    Also you seem to be blaming schools, blame the department for their shoddy approach to this from the start. Releasing stuff 4 weeks before schools are due back isn't our fault. The plan itself reeks of a cut and paste job from various documents from other countries. Your ire is being directed at the wrong area, the one visible area to you. This is a classic divide and conquer strategy, pitting people against people while they sit on the sidelines eating popcorn and laughing at us.


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    #868
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    All I'll say is WOW. I was nodding my head in agreement at the start but then all you left out was essentially an "our taxes pay your wages" comment.

    I'll just leave you will this to ponder, schools are also hamstrung by a lack of clarity and information. Further information has been provided yesterday but more to come. Would you release your project into the public domain without it being somewhat fit for public consumption? I know when I worked in the private sector that we wouldn't and didn't.

    Also you seem to be blaming schools, blame the department for their shoddy approach to this from the start. Releasing stuff 4 weeks before schools are due back isn't our fault. The plan itself reeks of a cut and paste job from various documents from other countries. Your ire is being directed at the wrong area, the one visible are to you.

    Well I'm not coming from that angle re wages so that's why I left it out. Not every project in private sector is fit for public consumption, so that's also why I'm not coming from that angle either. The analogy I gave was comparing teams that are supposed to be partners to ensure overall success.
    Parents don't need to know every detail. Principles don't need to disclose every inner working of their job nor should they. I'm simply saying that any information, some information, some feedback, some partnership, some communication is what we're entitled to. From what I'm reading, it sounds like most teachers are left in the frustrating dark as well.

    I'm not blaming schools here at all, only so much as I feel they (and I mean our school and all others following suit) who are seriously lacking in communication that we need for our children and our family's. That's a school management failing, no? Or is it the gov't telling them to not communicate plans and shortcomings.

    The plan reeks I agree with you and in all other aspects bar communication with parents I am completely with you too.


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    #869
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    You see it on here when issues are raised and mostly the responses are lazy teachers don't want to work, put them on the Covid payment and they'll go back, the country needs the schools open to get the economy back again, we need to think about the children, teachers looking a pay increase, teachers looking for danger money, dastardly unions preventing the country from getting back to normal.

    Principals are doing what they have to get the schools open within the framework they have been given. Unions in my opinion are playing a blinder. They are pointing out the flaws and issues but aren't banging the table in annoyance. Slowly but surely I'm seeing parents and the media taking the plan apart and demanding change.

    Coming from us that would be twisted into something else. Indeed I can't remember was it on this thread or another similar one but someone was claiming that teachers were protesting outside the dail this week looking for a pay increase. Utter lies but why let the truth get in the way of fabricating a story to suit their own narrative.

    If the plan is to be changed in any meaningful way they the drive for this needs to come from the parent body. I know my own union put forward a very comprehensive reopening document to the department shortly after Easter, so to did the national primary principals forum. Guess what? Points raised and solutions offered were pretty much ignored in the plan outlined. So yes we have pointed out the issues but until there is a outcry from the media and parents then nothing will happen.

    This was a great post. So again I ask, how can parents support and help us all succeed if we are not being given ANY information. What about the plan isn't working in our specific schools? Principles are in a unique position to let us know as insiders privy to it all and could leverage parents who can leverage the media. Tell me how we do that with a wall of silence on the issues from the school.


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    #870
    grind gremlin
    Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭grind gremlin


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    This was a great post. So again I ask, how can parents support and help us all succeed if we are not being given ANY information. What about the plan isn't working in our specific schools? Principles are in a unique position to let us know as insiders privy to it all and could leverage parents who can leverage the media. Tell me how we do that with a wall of silence on the issues from the school.

    Parents of children with special education needs need to be screaming from the rooftops about how the learning support / resource hours they have fought so hard for will be decimated as SET team cover absences.
    Parents of children with health conditions need to make their voices heard on how unsafe the lack of social distancing is in primary schools.
    All parents can campaign for a reduction in the pupil teacher ratio going forward. This needs to be addressed immediately.
    We are expected to make the plan work with what little we already have. The media are towing the line with the politicians on how we need all children back to school. We all want a return to normal but these times are certainly not normal.


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    #871
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    ACitizenErased wrote: »
    Mad it took a european report, should have been in the original plan

    As a country we are incapable of taking a sensible decision without an outsider telling us what to do.


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