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Farage weighs in...

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    #32
    cyberhog
    Registered Users Posts: 940 ✭✭✭cyberhog


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    And I'm sure that the SDP is completely objective in these matters and that this comment in no way reflects SDP's political disagreements with Merkel.

    amused,
    Scofflaw

    And I suppose your constant belittlement of people that don't support the treaty makes you completely objective, does it? lol


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    #33
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    cyberhog wrote: »
    And I suppose your constant belittlement of people that don't support the treaty makes you completely objective, does it? lol

    I don't belittle anyone - I don't comment on your motives for making the claims you make, let alone ascribe to you any characteristics based on them - but I do reserve the right to ridicule the ridiculous claims themselves.

    And those claims are ridiculous.


    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #34
    Dwellingdweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 825 ✭✭✭Dwellingdweller


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Just got one of their leaflets in the post.

    Nigel Farage MEP's first point against Europe is:

    "During the 2002 Referendum debate, the Euro Yes men said the Treaty of Nice would not lead to a significant increase of immigratnts from Easter Europe coming to live and work in Ireland.

    They were wrong[emphasis reduced].

    500,000 migrants came for jobs to Ireland with attendant job displacement"

    It finishes with "On may 31st, as a proud people / strike for freedom" in caps.

    So an English toff wants us to vote no and get rid of the Eastern Europeans. Apart from anything else, what an ill judged campaign. No concept of how Irish people view race or politics whatsoever. It would be interesting to see what SF's response would be to him, and if they realised that they were on his side they would probably change to a "Vote Yes" stance pretty quickly.

    Don't take this personally - but this post for me epitomises the Irish outlook on Nigel Farage. We, as a nation, gang up on foreigners when they try and tell us what to do. You heard it yourselves on that debate - FF, FG, SF, at each others throats one minute, the next all making a daisy chain to tell the foreigner to f*ck off, regardless of how much sense he was speaking. An 'English toff'. Looooool. Look, this is an open statement to everyone; maybe you should judge the guy by whether or not his arguments hold up, rather than his nationality. Farage was speaking a lot of sense on that debate but nobody wanted to hear it and Michael Martin epitomised the whole thing by attempting feebly to sabotage Farage's credibility by saying he had no business giving his opinion in Ireland, because he was British and obviously wanted bad things for Ireland. :rolleyes: Seriously. Come on for f*cks sake, it's not 1916 anymore. Get your heads out of your arses and consider Farage's, or any other outsider's points in an intelligent manner rather than going on like a bunch of 12 year olds, unable to have a considered and intelligent debate.

    (Again, I'm not talking to you here personally, johnnyskeleton, but to the Irish in general)


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    #35
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Dwellingdweller wrote: »
    Don't take this personally - but this post for me epitomises the Irish outlook on Nigel Farage. We, as a nation, gang up on foreigners when they try and tell us what to do. You heard it yourselves on that debate - FF, FG, SF, at each others throats one minute, the next all making a daisy chain to tell the foreigner to f*ck off, regardless of how much sense he was speaking. An 'English toff'. Looooool. Look, this is an open statement to everyone; maybe you should judge the guy by whether or not his arguments hold up, rather than his nationality. Farage was speaking a lot of sense on that debate but nobody wanted to hear it and Michael Martin epitomised the whole thing by attempting feebly to sabotage Farage's credibility by saying he had no business giving his opinion in Ireland, because he was British and obviously wanted bad things for Ireland. :rolleyes: Seriously. Come on for f*cks sake, it's not 1916 anymore. Get your heads out of your arses and consider Farage's, or any other outsider's points in an intelligent manner rather than going on like a bunch of 12 year olds, unable to have a considered and intelligent debate.

    (Again, I'm not talking to you here personally, johnnyskeleton, but to the Irish in general)

    You don't see the irony in an Englishman lecturing us on the dangers of foreigners coming into this country? Seriously?


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    #36
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Dwellingdweller wrote: »
    Don't take this personally - but this post for me epitomises the Irish outlook on Nigel Farage. We, as a nation, gang up on foreigners when they try and tell us what to do. You heard it yourselves on that debate - FF, FG, SF, at each others throats one minute, the next all making a daisy chain to tell the foreigner to f*ck off, regardless of how much sense he was speaking. An 'English toff'. Looooool. Look, this is an open statement to everyone; maybe you should judge the guy by whether or not his arguments hold up, rather than his nationality. Farage was speaking a lot of sense on that debate but nobody wanted to hear it and Michael Martin epitomised the whole thing by attempting feebly to sabotage Farage's credibility by saying he had no business giving his opinion in Ireland, because he was British and obviously wanted bad things for Ireland. :rolleyes: Seriously. Come on for f*cks sake, it's not 1916 anymore. Get your heads out of your arses and consider Farage's, or any other outsider's points in an intelligent manner rather than going on like a bunch of 12 year olds, unable to have a considered and intelligent debate.

    (Again, I'm not talking to you here personally, johnnyskeleton, but to the Irish in general)

    Eh, we listened to an almost endless stream of complaints during Lisbon every time Sarkozy opened his mouth - or indeed any other foreigner who had the temerity to suggest we might want to ratify Lisbon - so it's hardly new.

    In this particular case, it's hard to see what right Farage et al have to come and intervene. What we're voting on isn't an EU treaty, and Ireland's vote isn't a veto on the Treaty going ahead, but a multilateral intergovernmental one, which means that Ireland's ratification is purely Ireland's business. Farage wants to stick one to the EU - sure, OK, that's what he was elected for - but he's sticking his oar into a national decision with potentially very serious consequences for Ireland, because he wants Ireland to stick it to Europe on his behalf.

    Were he resident here as a UK citizen, or any of the other MEPs involved as citizens of Denmark etc, he wouldn't even have the right to vote in the referendum - but he's being given speaking time on national TV and radio to try to influence the decision? Whatever about the effect he may have - and I don't think he's going to have the effect he thinks he'll have - that isn't right. This is not a "European" decision, but an entirely national one with important consequences for us.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #37
    Dwellingdweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 825 ✭✭✭Dwellingdweller


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    You don't see the irony in an Englishman lecturing us on the dangers of foreigners coming into this country? Seriously?

    I see the irony of it, but I also see the stupidity of it, when we flat out refuse to consider what he's saying and instead choose to ignore him because he's an Englishman/foreigner (or because he has an anti-EU agenda).
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Eh, we listened to an almost endless stream of complaints during Lisbon every time Sarkozy opened his mouth - or indeed any other foreigner who had the temerity to suggest we might want to ratify Lisbon - so it's hardly new.

    In this particular case, it's hard to see what right Farage et al have to come and intervene. What we're voting on isn't an EU treaty, and Ireland's vote isn't a veto on the Treaty going ahead, but a multilateral intergovernmental one, which means that Ireland's ratification is purely Ireland's business. Farage wants to stick one to the EU - sure, OK, that's what he was elected for - but he's sticking his oar into a national decision with potentially very serious consequences for Ireland, because he wants Ireland to stick it to Europe on his behalf.

    Were he resident here as a UK citizen, or any of the other MEPs involved as citizens of Denmark etc, he wouldn't even have the right to vote in the referendum - but he's being given speaking time on national TV and radio to try to influence the decision? Whatever about the effect he may have - and I don't think he's going to have the effect he thinks he'll have - that isn't right. This is not a "European" decision, but an entirely national one with important consequences for us.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    I find it difficult to understand this outlook - because of his agenda/nationality, he has no right to join the debate? :confused: I see what you mean about it being a national decision, and something that has nothing to do with him, but the points he raised on the debate on todayfm were legitimate: the main one being that a 'yes' vote means reduced fiscal autonomy, and fiscal autonomy plays quite heavily into sovereign autonomy. Look, I'm not a serial 'no' campaigner; it seems to me that a 'no' vote would have much worse consequences for Ireland than a 'yes' vote. But, despite this, Farage raised legitimate points, as I'm sure you know. That's what I want to highlight here. Not his agenda, or that I support what he said, but that what he had to say was a worthwhile contribution to the ongoing debate on austerity/the fiscal compact. It's more important that we listen to what he has to say and take his points on board (not to agree with them - just take them on board), in my opinion, than to have a go at him because of his agenda and/or nationality.


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    #38
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Dwellingdweller wrote: »
    I see the irony of it, but I also see the stupidity of it, when we flat out refuse to consider what he's saying and instead choose to ignore him because he's an Englishman/foreigner (or because he has an anti-EU agenda).



    I find it difficult to understand this outlook - because of his agenda/nationality, he has no right to join the debate? :confused: I see what you mean about it being a national decision, and something that has nothing to do with him, but the points he raised on the debate on todayfm were legitimate: the main one being that a 'yes' vote means reduced fiscal autonomy, and fiscal autonomy plays quite heavily into sovereign autonomy. Look, I'm not a serial 'no' campaigner; it seems to me that a 'no' vote would have much worse consequences for Ireland than a 'yes' vote. But, despite this, Farage raised legitimate points, as I'm sure you know. That's what I want to highlight here. Not his agenda, or that I support what he said, but that what he had to say was a worthwhile contribution to the ongoing debate on austerity/the fiscal compact. It's more important that we listen to what he has to say and take his points on board (not to agree with them - just take them on board), in my opinion, than to have a go at him because of his agenda and/or nationality.

    It's not about his nationality - after all, I share Mr Farage's nationality in part - or the question of what agenda he has in respect of the EU. I have no issue with him commenting on the referendum from the UK at all - everyone is entitled to comment.

    But it's not really acceptable for any interests outside Ireland to campaign in an Irish referendum. Irish No campaigners believe they're doing the best for Ireland by campaigning for a No vote, Irish Yes campaigners by campaigning for a Yes vote. Farage is doing what he perceives to be best for the UK - and if he isn't, he's not doing his job. It's not acceptable to have someone campaigning for the Irish to make the decision that's best for the UK.

    The point was made earlier in the thread that Farage abstained from the the vote on the Irish Lisbon guarantees, while Morten Messerschmidt voted against them. Is that an indication of having Ireland's best interests at heart?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #39
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Dwellingdweller wrote: »
    I see the irony of it, but I also see the stupidity of it, when we flat out refuse to consider what he's saying and instead choose to ignore him because he's an Englishman/foreigner (or because he has an anti-EU agenda).

    I did consider what he is saying. The very first thing his pamphlet says is a derogatory comment about Eastern Europeans which is, quite frankly, not supported by the evidence (we had full employment up to 2006 - where is the job displacement?).

    Is it stupid to, having considered what he says, to disregard what he says? No, I don't think so. Is it worth nothing the irony of a british mep's call to arms for the free people of Ireland? Yes, I think so.

    Finally, are people right to be wary of this soft sell racism? Absolutely.


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    #40
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    carrolls wrote: »
    If every voter had an economics degree, referendums would be democratic. But Its kind of obvious that people are voting on party political issues and as an angry protest against their perceived circumstances.

    ...if every politician had an economics degree. :D

    Oh wait, Alan Greenspan (you know, the former Chairman of the Federal Reserve) who holds a PhD in economics (naturally) helped develop the subprime mortgage and credit crisis. Em...

    Sorry for trolling your post (the perspective of which has some merit) but what do political parties do but ... vote on party lines? Ever heard of the position of chief whip? Éamon Ó Cuív certainly has. :P


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    #41
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Eh, we listened to an almost endless stream of complaints during Lisbon every time Sarkozy opened his mouth - or indeed any other foreigner who had the temerity to suggest we might want to ratify Lisbon - so it's hardly new.

    I object to another head of state, legislative organ of the EU, or EU parliamentary party telling us what we should do. I have no objection to Nigel Farage giving his opinion, but I don't like it when he does so as a representative of the Europe for Freedom and Democracy group. The only caveat is that the EFD has little relative power compared to that of ALDE, PES or the EPP.


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    #42
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    poor nigel........but he will get his way in the uk.....one day in the near future....


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    #43
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I object to another head of state, legislative organ of the EU, or EU parliamentary party telling us what we should do. I have no objection to Nigel Farage giving his opinion, but I don't like it when he does so as a representative of the Europe for Freedom and Democracy group. The only caveat is that the EFD has little relative power compared to that of ALDE, PES or the EPP.

    You know I didn't particularly care what Sarkosy had to say as no one really took any notice of it. Well except ironically the no campaign who seemed to take him very seriously. Farage has come here to actively campaign for a no vote, his group have sent leaflets to every house in the country. Leaflets which are the usual one-sided misdirection and bull from his lot. I can't help but notice the people who objected loudly to Sarkosy have said very little about Farage who has gone much further. Not all 'interference' is the same, not that I welcome any of it.


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    #44
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cyberhog wrote: »
    There you go again with your sarcastic drivel. The Social Democrats put the blame squarely on Merkel's shoulders for the rise of racists in Greece.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9255534/Eurozone-crisis-Angela-Merkel-forced-to-postpone-fiskalpakt-ratification.html

    Funny, because I've been directly affected by "austerity" and the financial crisis in Ireland, yet feel no need to rush out and vote for a bunch of far right racists. Given the make up of the Dail, it would seem that held true for the vast majority of the populace.


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    #45
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 16,404 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    I am delighted that Farage has taken time to come to Dublin and lecture the Irish people on the Treaty, it is bound to be another nail in the No campaign.


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    #46
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Does anyone have a scan of this wondrous document or perhaps a link to one? I don't seem to have been leafleted with it.


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    #47
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Francie Barrett wrote: »
    I am delighted that Farage has taken time to come to Dublin and lecture the Irish people on the Treaty, it is bound to be another nail in the No campaign.

    farage is only concerned about the uk.......but he would like the eu to break up, just to prove his point....

    he should be patient, but he will not be the one that withdraws from the uk from the eu....it will be the conservatives....

    not sure what will happen then.......

    but i will be delighted.......


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    #48
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 16,404 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    golden lane wrote: »
    farage is only concerned about the uk.......but he would like the eu to break up, just to prove his point....

    he should be patient, but he will not be the one that withdraws from the uk from the eu....it will be the conservatives....

    not sure what will happen then.......

    but i will be delighted.......
    Farage is a nasty piece of work, a real jingoistic xenophobe who would plunge England into economic isolation for no reason other than his dislike of Europe.


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    #49
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Francie Barrett wrote: »
    Farage is a nasty piece of work, a real jingoistic xenophobe who would plunge England into economic isolation for no reason other than his dislike of Europe.

    i wouldn't go that far.......but he is right...for the wrong reasons......

    a refenendum in the uk....would mean leaving the eu....and the conservatives will be forced into one soon.....


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    #50
    carveone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭carveone


    Nodin wrote: »
    Does anyone have a scan of this wondrous document or perhaps a link to one? I don't seem to have been leafleted with it.

    You're missing so much! The leaflet is produced by the EFD group (Europe for Freedom and Democracy) and is a pdf which is linked to on the frontpage of their website:

    http://www.efdgroup.eu/images/stories/Publications/news/EFD_Group_leaflet_irish%20.pdf


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    #51
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    golden lane wrote: »
    a refenendum in the uk....would mean leaving the eu....and the conservatives will be forced into one soon.....

    And you may be right. The problem is most objective analysis say that the UK leaving the EU would be a terrible idea for the UK. Many politicians and media in the UK have played the 'blame the EU for everything' game and will have to seriously backtrack if the crunch comes.


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    #52
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    meglome wrote: »
    And you may be right. The problem is most objective analysis say that the UK leaving the EU would be a terrible idea for the UK. Many politicians and media in the UK have played the 'blame the EU for everything' game and will have to seriously backtrack if the crunch comes.

    well, i believe that a referendum, right or wrong is the way to go.........

    i personally don't think rules or laws should be made by others...

    but i accept the majority vote...it leaves nothing to moan about....

    my three grown up kids live in the uk, and i spend a lot of time there (retired now)......
    and they are sick of interference by outsiders........


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    #53
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    YAY!!

    I was just thinking if Farage shows up I'd suspect that secretly the government is funding him and libertas to undermine the *No* campaign.

    The man knows he's a jinx on the no campaign right?

    I still would love to see all the different group leaders of the no campaign in the same room, it'd be like cats in a bag.


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    #54
    carveone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭carveone


    meglome wrote: »
    And you may be right. The problem is most objective analysis say that the UK leaving the EU would be a terrible idea for the UK. Many politicians and media in the UK have played the 'blame the EU for everything' game and will have to seriously backtrack if the crunch comes.

    If it came down to a referendum, I'm not sure that it would be won. At least not according to a bunch of polls on the subject. I wonder what the UK imports in terms of food. Probably a lot, from us.
    It's be kinda fun if England went out and Scotland stayed in. Might have to bolster Hadrian's wall a bit. :o


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    #55
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    golden lane wrote: »
    well, i believe that a referendum, right or wrong is the way to go.........

    i personally don't think rules or laws should be made by others...

    but i accept the majority vote...it leaves nothing to moan about....

    my three grown up kids live in the uk, and i spend a lot of time there (retired now)......
    and they are sick of interference by outsiders........

    I'm not disagreeing with the right to vote. I'm just saying there was been an imperialist style anti-EU sentiment from the media and politicians in the UK for some time. Might have always been there I don't know. So yes people in the UK do think they are being 'interfered' with. The problem is looking at the facts from a balanced viewpoint it's very difficult to actually agree that there really is interference. The UK are fully involved in making all the decisions and have opted out where it has suited them. I think the UK is perfectly capable of shooting themselves in the foot, and it'll be all lovely and democratic.


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    #56
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    meglome wrote: »
    I'm not disagreeing with the right to vote. I'm just saying there was been an imperialist style anti-EU sentiment from the media and politicians in the UK for some time. Might have always been there I don't know. So yes people in the UK do think they are being 'interfered' with. The problem is looking at the facts from a balanced viewpoint it's very difficult to actually agree that there really is interference. The UK are fully involved in making all the decisions and have opted out where it has suited them. I think the UK is perfectly capable of shooting themselves in the foot, and it'll be all lovely and democratic.

    yes,....whatever is the result.....but they have paid a lot into the eu......

    and that is only your opinion........about being a big mistake....

    i don't get where you read and take in, what is printed in newspapers......never known them to be right anyway..

    i think europe will suffer greater than the uk.....


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    #57
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    i think europe will suffer greater than the uk.....

    Does the UK excel in a specific industry or have access to immense wealth of a natural resource?


    If no, then leaving the EU is a horrible move by any british government as it will remove their ability to protect british industries in the european market.

    With no vote on the EU, laws about catagorizing products, trading products etc etc, the whole schibang will be decided without anyone considering British interests.

    Essentially the UK will no longer be able to protect their own interests in the european market.

    So this classic skit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzeDZtx3wUw


    would actually become very accurate without british voice in the EU.


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    #58
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    golden lane wrote: »
    yes,....whatever is the result.....but they have paid a lot into the eu......

    and that is only your opinion........about being a big mistake....

    i don't get where you read and take in, what is printed in newspapers......never known them to be right anyway..

    i think europe will suffer greater than the uk.....

    British businesses tend to be pro EU membership. That implies that EU membership is good for the British economy.

    There is a very strong anti-Europe, anti-modernity, nostalgia-for-the-empire streak running through England, especially in the Tory areas where I found myself living down the years. Europe divided the Tories in the past, and it looks like it will divide them again in the future. Cameron has to go along with the "get us out of the EU" Euroskeptics to gain political support but (if he has any sense) won't actually be crazy enough to pull the UK out of the EU.


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    #59
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    carveone wrote: »
    If it came down to a referendum, I'm not sure that it would be won. At least not according to a bunch of polls on the subject. I wonder what the UK imports in terms of food. Probably a lot, from us.
    It's be kinda fun if England went out and Scotland stayed in. Might have to bolster Hadrian's wall a bit. :o


    yes, three cheers for self determination........

    the vote should always win...


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    #60
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    Does the UK excel in a specific industry or have access to immense wealth of a natural resource?


    If no, then leaving the EU is a horrible move by any british government as it will remove their ability to protect british industries in the european market.

    With no vote on the EU, laws about catagorizing products, trading products etc etc, the whole schibang will be decided without anyone considering British interests.

    Essentially the UK will no longer be able to protect their own interests in the european market.

    So this classic skit:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzeDZtx3wUw


    would actually become very accurate without british voice in the EU.

    of course.........time will tell.........

    but they will go down by their own choice..........not paying for everybody else...


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    #61
    fianna saor
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭fianna saor


    carrolls wrote: »
    Somebody said on the radio today that Bruton's gaffe will swing the vote 10%.
    That means that 300,000 people are basing their vote on one single issue that has nothing to do with the treaty. How democratic is that?

    how democratic is casting another referendum when they dont get the result they want?
    Godge wrote: »
    Are you saying that Irish people are thick?

    no not at all.


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