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Downside of social welfare

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13567

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    #62
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    Another example:

    I pay substantial amount of income taxes and have no Medical/GP card.

    I have to pay for every GP visit, so think twice about going to GP, as:
    1)it cost me some money
    2)I have to take time off work
    3)My employer wouldn't like me being absent too often.

    The person on a JA does not contribute a penny towards HSE budget,
    though he/she pays next to nothing for GP visit,
    can afford to visit GP any time without taking time off
    Can afford to visit GP on any occasion.

    I wonder if there is a statistics on how often each individual on Medical Card does attend GP, and compare this stats to people without Medical Card?


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    #63
    Sweet.Science
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    Im surprised couples working and renting dont just quit their jobs when they have kids . Jump on the gravy train


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    #64
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    Leap cards, libraries and intreo offices are all well and good for people in cities. What about the rural population? Should they trade food stamps for bus tickets?

    Obviously there would be a special rural allowance of a pair of walking shoes in place of a leap card.... And a laminated map with directions to the local Supermacs for free wifi....


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    #65
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    na1 wrote: »
    The person on a JA does not contribute a penny towards HSE budget,

    So they're exempt from paying VAT? Wish someone had told me this.


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    #66
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Well, I was on the dole for extended periods twice. The first time was grand because I had redundancy money but the second time I had been living hand to fist until I was made redundant again, I had a little bit in my savings and I had to pay rent out of my €188 weekly allowance. These are the things that happened to me:

    1. I lost contact with lots of friends because I had no money to do the things we normally did together.
    2. I applied for a medical card but never got one, so I couldn't go to the dentist or doctor. I wear glasses and at one point they broke, I had to sellotape them up until my Dad paid for me to get them fixed.
    3. Because I was so isolated I got incredibly depressed and then anxious when I had to go anywhere, including interviews.
    4. I gained a lot of weight because I was living on vegetable pasta bakes and cheap ham sandwiches. Then I had very little to wear because what I had didn't fit me, and had no money to buy clothes.
    5. I lost access to my bank account because it was overdrawn when I lost my job and I never had enough money to even put a little dent in it. The bank eventually gave me an account with a card that could only be used to deposit money.

    The worst thing of all is that even though I am earning good money now and have saved a good bit of money, I still worry about not being able to pay my bills or rent. I can't imagine what it is like spending your life like that. The only positive was the free time, but free time isn't much fun when you have no money or anywhere to go.


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    #67
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    nothing wrote: »
    There's another downside - it costing more to work than not to because you end up losing all the associated benefits, not to mention possible unsuitable hours...
    Yep, there's a "golden handcuffs" aspect to long-term unemployment, which makes it very hard to make the leap back into gainful employment.

    I'm sure there's a way to mitigate this, but it's quite a specific thing and dependent on circumstances, that you can't come up with a general rule that would work in every case.
    fryup wrote: »
    *getting exspensive medical procedures paid for by the state
    Everyone gets that.
    Sweet.Science wrote: »
    Im surprised couples working and renting dont just quit their jobs when they have kids . Jump on the gravy train
    Because it's not a gravy train. Standard of living is quite a relative thing. For 90% of us, the money to be collected from social welfare and the "free house" over our heads will be significant reduction in our standard of living.

    An analogy was drawn before about animals in a zoo, and while perhaps unnecessarily dehumanising, it's accurate.

    When you've been earning, or you come from a family where people have generally been earning and keeping themselves afloat, then you get accustomed to that standard of living.
    Dropping down to social welfare is a reduction in that standard of living, which you will desperately want to raise yourself back up to again.

    If living on social welfare is all you've ever known, then the motivation to improve your lot is lost. You're comfortable, you don't necessarily feel like you're missing out because you haven't known anything better.

    Even someone who has been employed, if they end up in long-term unemployment they will eventually cut their cloth to measure, and become accustomed to the lower standard of living. Which also saps any motivation to improve their position.


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    #68
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    With the coming 'gig economy' surely the plain obvious solution is UBI.
    (Universal Basic Income)

    Many on welfare could take up 8, 16, 24 hrs of random work per week
    - without any fear whatsoever of loosing any benefits, interviews and form filling.

    The benefit to the economy alone in terms of national production output alone would be massive.


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    #69
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    Obviously there would be a special rural allowance of a pair of walking shoes in place of a leap card.... And a laminated map with directions to the local Supermacs for free wifi....

    My local supermacs was around 3 hours drive away when I was last unemployed :pac:


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    #70
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    My local supermacs was around 3 hours drive away when I was last unemployed :pac:

    You would be granted immediate exemption and eligible for the exceptional needs bonus transport allowance of walking shoes PLUS water


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    #71
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    So they're exempt from paying VAT? Wish someone had told me this.

    Did you say "paying"? I though they are handing back some portion of their free Jobseeker Allowances.


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    #72
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 37,763 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    you get put onto schemes like Turas nua etc, who say they will get u a job but they dont and make you do ****e courses

    I work part time and do x and os but sometimes i dont even get anything from the social cause i work over 20 hours. Id go off my head being stuck at home 7 days a week.

    Its hard to get full time work (even part time is hard) with all the migrants here and some places its like spot the irish man as these people will work for anything

    Theres no doubt people on the dole who are getting extra money on the side selling certain stuff and questions are not being asked wheres the money coming from to but the new 18 land rover


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    #73
    jamesbere
    Registered Users Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭jamesbere


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

    I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

    Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

    Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

    People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

    I hope you were able to get back up on your feet


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    #74
    Sweet.Science
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    you get put onto schemes like Turas nua etc, who say they will get u a job but they dont and make you do ****e courses

    I work part time and do x and os but sometimes i dont even get anything from the social cause i work over 20 hours. Id go off my head being stuck at home 7 days a week.

    Its hard to get full time work (even part time is hard) with all the migrants here and some places its like spot the irish man as these people will work for anything

    Theres no doubt people on the dole who are getting extra money on the side selling certain stuff and questions are not being asked wheres the money coming from to but the new 18 land rover

    Im sorry to hear that . My post wasnt aimed at people like yourself


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    #75
    Mam of 4
    Registered Users Posts: 21,822 ✭✭✭✭Mam of 4


    Riskymove wrote: »
    people are using the term "on the dole" in these conversations and that tends to reflect the target of their comments - however I would go forward and say the issue is long term recipients of jobseeker benefits

    OAP, Child benefit, Carers allowance,Illness and Disability etc. are all "welfare" benefits but I think it is clear that they are not what is being discussed

    I think a lot of people don't make that distinction if I'm being honest , they think you have it made and are well set up if you say you're receiving Carers etc .
    Respite Grant , sure that's your holiday paid for !
    Carers , sure that's great , you can sit at home all day and do nothing !

    What they don't think of is that most Carers would give their heart and soul not to have to be in receipt of it in the first place .


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    #76
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,800 ✭✭✭take everything


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I was on the dole a few years after the recession.

    I went from having a pretty well paid and comfortable job, was able to easily pay my bills and rent and raise my kids.

    Recession happened, lost my job, partner eventually left me due to a mixture of stress and being a cheating twat, took the kids to the other side of the country.

    Bills piled up, I had to move back into the family home until I was finally able to find a stable job and get a new apartment.

    People love to go on and on about the 'easy life' on the dole, but after bills and so on I had about €15 a week so it was impossible to save up any sort of cash to move out.

    How did you get assistance after moving back to the family home


  • Options
    #77
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    na1 wrote: »

    I wonder if there is a statistics on how often each individual on Medical Card does attend GP, and compare this stats to people without Medical Card?

    As expected, their attendances are higher.

    http://www.esri.ie/pubs/JA201823.pdf

    See table 2.


  • Options
    #78
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    na1 wrote: »
    Another example:

    I pay substantial amount of income taxes and have no Medical/GP card.

    I have to pay for every GP visit, so think twice about going to GP, as:
    1)it cost me some money
    2)I have to take time off work
    3)My employer wouldn't like me being absent too often.

    The person on a JA does not contribute a penny towards HSE budget,
    though he/she pays next to nothing for GP visit,
    can afford to visit GP any time without taking time off
    Can afford to visit GP on any occasion.

    I wonder if there is a statistics on how often each individual on Medical Card does attend GP, and compare this stats to people without Medical Card?

    I had no medical card on JSA and just didn't see a doctor.


  • Options
    #79
    forgodssake
    Registered Users Posts: 790 ✭✭✭forgodssake


    The down sides have to boredom , lack of communicating with other working people , social exclusion , basic funds (for most) , and feeling of degradation and isolation.

    The upsides have to be no early mornings , commutes , no work related stress .

    Having never been out of work for a long period of time I'm only imagining how it would be for me . I'd hate it .
    I give out and whinge about work constantly but kinda think the grass wouldn't be as green .


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    #80
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    forgodssake wrote: »
    Having never been out of work for a long period of time I'm only imagining how it would be for me . I'd hate it .

    I didnt work for 2 years and I loved it. It was the best 2 years of my life. I only got social welfare for the first year of it. I funded it out of a redundancy payment.

    I was never bored and I communicated with other people daily, in the gym, by email, in the park, doing a part time course.

    Im sure it would have been a much different experience if I didnt have the money to do it such that my standard of living didnt change.

    I always look back at it fondly and it has fuelled my desire to retire as early as possible.


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    #81
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    ....... wrote: »
    was never bored and I communicated with other people daily, in the gym, by email, in the park, doing a part time course.
    .

    a good point

    it is not just about being on benefits but your lifestyle choices that leads to the issues being discussed

    if people are just sitting at home or out drinking etc. that is more of an issue

    you could be volunteering, in education etc


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    #82
    forgodssake
    Registered Users Posts: 790 ✭✭✭forgodssake


    ....... wrote:
    I didnt work for 2 years and I loved it. It was the best 2 years of my life. I only got social welfare for the first year of it. I funded it out of a redundancy payment.


    You were lucky you had the redunancy I suppose , it probably felt like an extended holiday ! . Volunteering would be a good way to pass the days as well . I just can't imagine waking up and not having structure like work to my day . I might love it if it ever happens who knows !


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    #83
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Riskymove wrote: »
    it is not just about being on benefits but your lifestyle choices that leads to the issues being discussed

    if people are just sitting at home or out drinking etc. that is more of an issue

    you could be volunteering, in education etc

    yes just because you're unemployed doesn't mean you're lazy,

    i filled my days by volunteering at the local community garden and working in my own garden growing vegetables, as well as tinkering around the house decorating rooms and the like


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    #84
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    forgodssake wrote: »
    You were lucky you had the redunancy I suppose , it probably felt like an extended holiday ! . Volunteering would be a good way to pass the days as well . I just can't imagine waking up and not having structure like work to my day . I might love it if it ever happens who knows !

    I had a "working week" structure.

    Up at the same time as when working, to the gym, leisurely workout then relaxing swim, home around 10am, leisurely breakfast. Clean up the house, read or hobby for a bit. Lunchtime, then study for 3 hours or so and then make the dinner for when himself got home. Walks in the park some afternoons with podcasts related to study.

    My husband loved it - he had so much more free time because he came home to a clean house and a cooked meal. Both of us were less stressed. We also experienced him being redundant when I worked and I was equally happy at having so much more free time and no chores after work.

    We would both like to get to a place where we can retire as early as possible having had the experiences of redundancy. I never would have said that prior to redundancy.

    Itd have to be well funded though.


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    #85
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    So they're exempt from paying VAT? Wish someone had told me this.

    If your son lives with you and you pay him 200 a week of an allowance, but then charge him 50 a week for bed and board, are you under some illusion you are now up 50 a week?


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    #86
    Sal Butamol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 523 ✭✭✭Sal Butamol


    ....... wrote: »
    I had a "working week" structure.

    Up at the same time as when working, to the gym, leisurely workout then relaxing swim, home around 10am, leisurely breakfast. Clean up the house, read or hobby for a bit. Lunchtime, then study for 3 hours or so and then make the dinner for when himself got home. Walks in the park some afternoons with podcasts related to study.

    My husband loved it - he had so much more free time because he came home to a clean house and a cooked meal. Both of us were less stressed. We also experienced him being redundant when I worked and I was equally happy at having so much more free time and no chores after work.

    We would both like to get to a place where we can retire as early as possible having had the experiences of redundancy. I never would have said that prior to redundancy.

    Itd have to be well funded though.

    They used to call this being a housewife. Most women won't admit it but they would prefer it.


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    #87
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    Sal Butamol wrote: »
    They used to call this being a housewife. Most women won't admit it but they would prefer it.

    I'm at home now for over 2 years because baby, we had to cut back on some things but it's amazing. I can keep my partner's back free, cook meals, get on top of everything during the day, can do things that he can't do when he's on work and once we had dinner and the sprogs are in bed we can sit down.
    Now it's not very challenging mentally but at the moment I enjoy it.

    The big difference is though when people lose their jobs, that's not a choice they make. The lifestyle with one parent or partner at home is a budgeted choice.


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    #88
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Sal Butamol wrote: »
    They used to call this being a housewife. Most women won't admit it but they would prefer it.
    *I* would prefer it. Home all day, getting stuff done? Nice work, especially once the kids are older than 4.

    That stigma is going away. The main issue is that women were forced to be housewives whether they wanted to or not. So when it became acceptable not to, there was a bit of a drive to say, "You're free! Go and be independent!". And women who chose not to were kind of looked down upon.

    But society is now realising that staying at home is not the easy option at all, it's still work, it's still necessary. And that it is very beneficial in many ways for the whole family.

    We do need to break the stigma around men staying at home though. More men should choose it if the finances allow.


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    #89
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    seamus wrote: »
    *I* would prefer it. Home all day, getting stuff done? Nice work, especially once the kids are older than 4.

    That stigma is going away. The main issue is that women were forced to be housewives whether they wanted to or not. So when it became acceptable not to, there was a bit of a drive to say, "You're free! Go and be independent!". And women who chose not to were kind of looked down upon.

    But society is now realising that staying at home is not the easy option at all, it's still work, it's still necessary. And that it is very beneficial in many ways for the whole family.

    We do need to break the stigma around men staying at home though. More men should choose it if the finances allow.

    Very relatable post. Being a man and having been in the position of out working whilst mum stated at home I can certainly say I had the easy deal. 8 hours in an office is playtime compared to maintaining child and home.

    Now separated but I would have loved the challenge of reversed roles. Do think I would have failed miserably in comparison to mums capabilities though . Maybe it's that fear factor / gender defined roles that is slowing progress


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    #90
    Mint Sauce
    Registered Users Posts: 29,294 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    Sleepy wrote: »
    It depends hugely on circumstances before you end up on it.

    If you've never worked and have been give the council house, the medical card, the fuel allowance, the back-to-school allowance and the christmas bonus for the long-term unemployed and know how to play your local CWO, you're on the pigs back.

    If you're renting privately or have a mortgage and lose a good job to end up on the basic job-seekers benefit without any of the add-ons that you're not entitled to until you've spent a year or more on welfare, it's a miserable existence.

    It's probably tolerable enough if you're a young person still living in Mammy and Daddys and without any real responsibilities.

    This. I was made redundant in 2010. Renting in a shared house, was reativly comfortable, could afford a few beers a couple nights a week, put a bit away for holiday once a year somewhere, and have a wee bit left over.

    Next thing I was down to €188 a week, the nights out were a lot less and still had to pay the bills and the rent, but was not quite down and out. Couldn't qualify for rent allowance as my current payment was above the threshhold. Only way I would have got it, would to have moved somewhere cheaper, and be there for 6 months before got anything. Whilst where I was, was already not too bad for Sligo, somewhere cheaper would have been not somewhere I would have wanted to live.

    At first it was not to bad being off, the World Cup had just started, and thought great, can watch the whole thing, but the novelty of watching it soon wore off. Had just learned to drive, something I had done in the knowledge of being made redundant, so could at least take off for a spin somewhere. Sitting up late at night, became more often, and very soon, I was not getting up till 2pm most days. That along with numerious rejected job applications, some not even answered, and dealing with power trippy social welfare, and FAS officers, did not do the confidence much good, and probably became boarderline depressed.

    Gave my self reson to leave the house by starting running, and even though was pretty confident with computers, no offical qualifations in them, but even getting on an ECDL course, was another reason to leave the house.

    Thankfully, working full time again now for 6+ years. Its not the best paid in the world, but the bills are paid, and have a social life again. So whilst the social welfare lifestyle might seem all glamour, if you did not choice to be there, it can turn pretty shit, quite quickly.


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    #91
    soups05
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭soups05


    the downside? where to start, I had two jobs during the boom, factory during week, shop at weekends, only way to make ends meet cos i had 4 kids and a mortgage.

    Recession hit and factory job gone, got redundancy so a bit of cash to keep us going. job in shop increased to 4 days p/w and everything fine i guess.

    then job in shop started going bad, no money around so people started going to aldi/lidl. hours cut to two days per week and had to sign on. tis ok, only temp i thought. did a forklift course to renew my licence, but never got the licence cos the fas scandal hit. could not find a factory job anywhere.

    decided to go back to education so started college, savings completely gone at this point, had to come to an arrangement with bank but kept head above water.

    shop closed so i was able to concentrate on college, not much of a drop in money as i was only claiming for wife and myself by now. that was 2015.

    got assaulted in 2017, broken jaw, missed some college and struggled to get back to speed, suddenly am depressed, have anxiety and can barely leave the house, but what ya gonna do? i needed the degree so ploughed on.

    graduated this year. got my 2.1 in IT, started the job hunt...this is great, hundreds of jobs in the section that i am qualified for..yes.

    been 3 months now, applying for anything i think i have a chance at, even those which ask for 2/3 years experience.

    one interview......did not get job.

    college buddy and i applied for same post, he had a 2.2 and i had a 2.1, he got an interview, not me.
    why? can't say, only difference between us is am 47 and he is 24. that is clear from our CV.

    so now what? do i keep chasing the IT job, go back to get my hon degree or just throw away the last 5 years of effort and try to get a job in factory/shop.

    meanwhile, i sit at home, spend most of morning searching job sites, browse some boards/youtube/reddit. do some gardening, walk the dog, watch some tv, wait to die, try to work up the nerve to go outside without being terrified that i will meet the scum who attacked me or their friends. I have no life, no savings, no future. two of kids are employed in great jobs, they help out with money but i feel like a leech. my friends were all work based, i don't see them anymore. I sit here and wallow in the cesspit of my own mind and wonder how will i ever drag myself out of the debt am in.

    one day the bank will want full payment again, then i guess am off to sleep in garda station, no newspaper for me and wife though, cos our kids are grown and successful.

    I really wish i had not worked all those years, i would have been better off living off the state, getting a council house and staying there, not trying to make life better by buying a private house, but it was how i was raised, you work for a living, i was never prepared for sitting idle, never prepared for how much of my self worth was tied to being a provider, a wage earner. I am not cut out for sitting around spending other people's money. At first i was happy cos i had spent 25 years working for everything i had, so the dole was a safety net that i had earned.

    now? i am pretty sure i have taken out more than i put in, way more than i deserve and more than i can ever pay back.

    and the job? do not know if that will ever happen now. am old, too old for employers it seems, and am beaten down, crushed by the weight of the self loathing i feel.

    fk the dole, fk the system that rewards those who don't want to work, most importantly, fk me for spending my entire life working towards being a failure.


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