Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

road_high · 09-12-2018 3:20pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Interesting to read that the Cork-Santander ferry will now be a 12-month service - 2,500 freight units sounds relatively tiny, but evidently there's sufficient commercial demand and profit.

We need to increase trade with Europe and replace potentially volatile Uk imports. It’s mainly laziness and inertia has us so reliant on uk trade

tuxy · 09-12-2018 3:24pm

road_high wrote: »

It’s mainly laziness and inertia has us so reliant on uk trade

So nothing to do with transport cost and speed then?

FrancieBrady · 09-12-2018 3:24pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

Every country has opt outs in certain areas.

Every country votes in accordance with its own interests in the council and in the parliament.

Have you called out Germany for pushing extreme economic liberalism for the last few decades despite the deeply harmful impact this has had on many smaller, less wealthy member states?

Have you called out France for aggressively pursuing a protectionist economic policy despite a majority of member states publicly stating that this is not in their best interests?

If you are prepared to single out and vilify the U.K. whilst all other countries engage in the same activity, you are a xenophobe.

The other countries are not trying to leave and have cake. That is the point here. The British have always had the most opt outs and veto's to protect themselves and their sense of superiority and separateness.

You are seeing Britain being taught a lesson here. Their stumbling arrogance can no longer protect them. That is a good thing for the EU as a whole imo.

Rhineshark · 09-12-2018 3:25pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

Every country has opt outs in certain areas.

Every country votes in accordance with its own interests in the council and in the parliament.

Have you called out Germany for pushing extreme economic liberalism for the last few decades despite the deeply harmful impact this has had on many smaller, less wealthy member states?

Have you called out France for aggressively pursuing a protectionist economic policy despite a majority of member states publicly stating that this is not in their best interests?

If you are prepared to single out and vilify the U.K. whilst all other countries engage in the same activity, you are a xenophobe.

...You managed to accuse and disprove the "xenophobia" in the same sentence. "Xenophobia", being fear of others, would be far more likely to result in disliking them all rather than mocking the UK, with, afaik, the most opt-outs of any country for claiming it is hard done by.

"Anglophobia" is more what you'd be looking for and it is hardly anglophobia to point out the guys doing all the whining have the best deal tailored to their interests of anyone and are still complaining.

road_high · 09-12-2018 3:30pm

tuxy wrote: »

So nothing to do with transport cost and speed then?

If they’re potentially wiped out by tariffs and pointless paperwork then no. Same argument can be made for the Uk itself but they’d rather trade with Outer Mongolia than the markets on their doorsteps. So they keep crowing anyhow

RobMc59 · 09-12-2018 3:38pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But France and Germany haven't exactly got the "benevolent" history with us that le Rosbif have.

And given that this collective clusterfūck is going to have a great effect on peace and prosperity of our island we're kinda allowed to begin to treat ye with the contempt that the UK deserves.

If in your simplified view of the UK everyone is either brain dead,a clone of JRM or Tommy Robinson then that opinion might be attractive.

BonnieSituation · 09-12-2018 3:41pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

If in your simplified view of the UK everyone is either brain dead,a clone of JRM or Tommy Robinson then that opinion might be attractive.

I don't see how this nonsense marries with what I stated above.

briany · 09-12-2018 3:44pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

I’m sure you are right.

But being Prime Minister isn’t meant to be an easy gig.

I would expect any PM to have the moral courage to take a more considered and cautious in that scenario

You aren’t much good as a leader if you cannot demonstrate leadership

I'm not sure if it's possible to be a strong leader when you had parliament so split on the issue. A fault line that didn't run down the aisle, but through both of the main parties. This is the problem with Brexit in that parliament and public have been so divided that it's almost impossible to reach a consensus to build a leadership upon.

Also, the Euro-sceptic element of the Conservatives has existed since at least the signing of the Maastricht treaty. It's a political force that got Cameron to first go to the EU to ask for more concessions, and then to include a referendum in the 2015 manifesto. It's a political force that Cameron failed to defeat. The Euro-sceptics won the right to have a referendum, and then they were able to get that vote over the line. To suggest that May could get it under control now through strong leadership is hard to envisage, to say the least.

Water John · 09-12-2018 3:54pm

A good leader would have taken time and gradually eroded the support for the Hard Brexiteers. Instead with her Florence speech, she put them centre stage.

No one had said out of CU and SM completely during the Ref. Sure as Boris said they were for, 'having their cake and eating it'.

murphaph · 09-12-2018 3:59pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

Now that's what I call a slipped mask.

igCorcaigh · 09-12-2018 4:00pm

The thing that worries me about this whole shambles is how it demonstrates that the EU is now a trap, and I'm not pro Brexit.

The Left have been traditionally anti EU, or at least sounding a warning about its destination.

Where now for the left when the right have taken that ground?

Will the EU superstate gather strength now, just as the political sphere splinters?

It's a worrying scenario for everyone really.

Water John · 09-12-2018 4:03pm

The vast majority of EU citizens and countries, don't want a superstate, some in Brussels favour it. They simply need to be kept in check.

Folkstonian · 09-12-2018 4:06pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The other countries are not trying to leave and have cake. That is the point here. The British have always had the most opt outs and veto's to protect themselves and their sense of superiority and separateness.

You are seeing Britain being taught a lesson here. Their stumbling arrogance can no longer protect them. That is a good thing for the EU as a whole imo.

Okay. I don’t actually know what much of what you post means. But it sounds good.

I think here you are confusing ‘superiority and separateness’ with working hard for a better deal in the interest of the country.

With the trend in public opinion steadily shifting towards remaining, I hope politicians snap back to their senses and continue to push for the best deal they can engineer inside the EU.

Please don’t deluded, however, yourself into thinking that Britain is the only EU country that tries to gain advantages over fellow members in certain areas whilst working in partnership in others. That’s how international relations works.

igCorcaigh · 09-12-2018 4:10pm

Water John wrote: »

The vast majority of EU citizens and countries, don't want a superstate, some in Brussels favour it. They simply need to be kept in check.

I would agree, yet those citizens on all these countries vote for their representatives who decide the future of the union.

Is there a disconnect? If so, then why can't democracy work on a pan European context?

Calina · 09-12-2018 4:12pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

To be utterly blunt, this choice would not be necessary if countries live and let live and to be frank, the UK is absolutely not a country whose history could be described in terms. It has historically been extremely bellicose and it would be worth recognising it tended not to send thousands to defend itself, but to send thousands to invade ad conquer. The sun never setting on the British Empire is as much evidence of aggression and bellicosity as the invasions of 1914 and 1939. It isn't like Britain left Ireland alone, let's face it. And it has massive famines in Ireland and India as part of its record of glory as well. It was massively involved in the slave trade. Its colonial record is in many, many respects disgraceful.

I'd rather die in my bed having led a good life. There is no glory in attacking and invading countries. You want to die on your feet, don't imagine there's always glory in that either.

igCorcaigh · 09-12-2018 4:13pm

If this is all a symptom of peoples' lack of trust of representitve democracy, then I really do fear for the worst.

briany · 09-12-2018 4:13pm

Water John wrote: »

No one had said out of CU and SM completely during the Ref. Sure as Boris said they were for, 'having their cake and eating it'.

I think the EU made fairly clear that the Brexiteer pipe dream of having SM privileges without SM obligations was just that. In light of that, for May to deliver on the red lines of no FoM and independence of trade, she has to promise no SM or CU.

Problem with the ref is that the question was open to interpretation. A lot of Brexit voters seemed to think the SM and CU were one and the same as the EU, and that's just not true, but they won't accept that this isn't true, even though it's demonstrably true.

igCorcaigh wrote: »

The thing that worries me about this whole shambles is how it demonstrates that the EU is now a trap, and I'm not pro Brexit.

The UK's internal politics have played a huge part in how difficult negotiations have been. They trapped themselves, not the EU. Half of them don't even want to leave, and the half that did want to leave weren't too well-educated on what that actually entailed. That's before you even get to the issues with Northern Ireland and making good on the commitment of no hard border in Ireland.

If this were, say, Portugal, and they voted 60+ percent Leave, they'd already have sorted out the terms of withdrawal because that would be a country with no contentious borders and would have a convincing mandate.

Folkstonian · 09-12-2018 4:17pm

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

igCorcaigh · 09-12-2018 4:20pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

More the reason why those drives would be glad to see the back of GB. But there is the fine line too.

J Mysterio · 09-12-2018 4:39pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

The UK and Ireland were, for the most part, supportive of each other in their dealings with the EU. UK leaving the EU is bad for Ireland in many ways, and that includes having a strong ally in pressing our often collective wishes.

Brexit is just a disaster though, unbeliebably ill conceived and not thought out. A populist, nationalist drive built on the back of lies and mistruths. So while it is true that the UK often held a position in EU debates that aligned with Irelands interests, it is also true that the UK did not consider Ireland's interests when deciding to leave the EU.

Anthracite · 09-12-2018 4:43pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Your ridiculing,belittling comments are probably best kept for the poppy thread,although if you grew up in a country that was in cahoots with Germany in WW1 and sent condolences following the death of Hitler-well maybe it's to be expected.
Of course Dunkirk was a defeat for Britain and France,17000 soldiers died there(mostly French) and it did as you point out prompt Churchill's fight them on the beaches speech to the country and parliament when Britain was effectively fighting alone.And as is quite often pointed out Britain is something of a "has been"in terms of world power-but sometimes it's better to be a has been than a never was.The attitude of I'd rather die on my feet than cowering on my knees is a choice countries have.

I'm presuming this is a thinly veiled dig at Ireland. Personally, I'm quite happy to be a 'never was' if the alternative is to be part of a culture that raped and pillaged a large proportion of the people of this planet and ruined them culturally and economically.

Your mileage may vary.

briany · 09-12-2018 4:46pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

The UK and Ireland were, for the most part, supportive of each other in their dealings with the EU. UK leaving the EU is bad for Ireland in many ways, and that includes having a strong ally in pressing our often collective wishes.

Brexit is just a disaster though, unbeliebably ill conceived and not thought out. A populist, nationalist drive built on the back of lies and mistruths. So while it is true that the UK often held a position in EU debates that aligned with Irelands interests, it is also true that the UK did not consider Ireland's interests when deciding to leave the EU.

I would expect the UK to think about itself first when deciding to leave the EU. What has been disappointing is elements within the Brexit camp who express a contempt when Ireland voices concerns on certain matters, almost as if Ireland has no right to be doing so.

Kermit.de.frog · 09-12-2018 4:46pm

The UK is in this dreadful, debilitating and humiliating situation because of May's stupid red lines.

Had she not closed off her options to appease the nutcase wing of her party a very satisfactory deal would now be done.

It's just incompetence at the end of the day.

First Up · 09-12-2018 4:56pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Folkstonian wrote: »

I think I’d also like to add to the poster above that by a ‘sense of separateness’ what he actually means is that British governments have been historically reluctant to support Franco-German intergrationist drives.

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that lots of smaller nations, including Ireland, have not been supportive of the role Britain has played to counter-balance those ambitions.

The EU isn’t to blame for all Britain’s troubles. Far from it. But similarly, Britain isn’t some kind of malevolent, disruptive, isolated saboteur in Europe. I think maybe that needs to be said more in this thread.

The UK and Ireland were, for the most part, supportive of each other in their dealings with the EU. UK leaving the EU is bad for Ireland in many ways, and that includes having a strong ally in pressing our often collective wishes.

Brexit is just a disaster though, unbeliebably ill conceived and not thought out. A populist, nationalist drive built on the back of lies and mistruths. So while it is true that the UK often held a position in EU debates that aligned with Irelands interests, it is also true that the UK did not consider Ireland's interests when deciding to leave the EU.

Well it was decided by individual voters but its safe to assume that the impact on Ireland didn't occur to many of them.

Calina · 09-12-2018 4:59pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

The post i said that in referred to Dunkirk when British and French forces were defeated by nazi Germany-the same Germany Ireland sent condolences to when Hitler died.If you want to cower under the bed while countries like France and Britain fight for Europe that up to you but bleating on about a long gone colonial Britain is pathetic.

In other words you will pick history which suits your narrative and exclude history that does not.

Let me remind you that in the end, Britain lost the War of Independence here so what was that about cowering again, and systematically since 1945 has had to withdraw from previously conquered territory.

The history of Britain cannot be seen solely in terms of one withdrawal and the greater sacrifice in Dunkirk was France's.

You cannot as a country trade on WW2 only.

Strazdas · 09-12-2018 5:10pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

The post i said that in referred to Dunkirk when British and French forces were defeated by nazi Germany-the same Germany Ireland sent condolences to when Hitler died.If you want to cower under the bed while countries like France and Britain fight for Europe that up to you but bleating on about a long gone colonial Britain is pathetic.

Ireland was in no position to declare war on Germany in September 1939. There seems to be an opinion that this was entirely open as an option, but the new state was only 17 years old and had no military to speak of (and didn't have the pact with Poland that the UK did).

J Mysterio · 09-12-2018 5:24pm

briany wrote: »

I would expect the UK to think about itself first when deciding to leave the EU. What has been disappointing is elements within the Brexit camp who express a contempt when Ireland voices concerns on certain matters, almost as if Ireland has no right to be doing so.

It seems many assumed Ireland would just follow the UK out, which is laughable. In fact, I think many Brexiteers believed that they would bring the whole project crashing down by leaving, starting some sort of domino effect.

Water John · 09-12-2018 5:27pm

That's the rubbish Farage fed them, EU would collapse without the UK. His main aim, to facilitate his Eastern Friend.

CelticRambler · 09-12-2018 5:33pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you want to cower under the bed while countries like France and Britain fight for Europe that up to you but bleating on about a long gone colonial Britain is pathetic.

There was precious little cowering under the bed by the Irish from 1798 to 1922 in the face of occupation by a hostile nation. In 1939, colonial Britain was not long-gone. In fact, in 2018, colonial Britain is not long-gone: in case you've missed it, the current UK government is paralysed by the corner Theresa May has painted herself into, specifically the colonial corner known as Northern Ireland.

briany · 09-12-2018 5:36pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

It seems many assumed Ireland would just follow the UK out, which is laughable. In fact, I think many Brexiteers believed that they would bring the whole project crashing down by leaving, starting some sort of domino effect.

"They need us!" was something I'd heard a good bit throughout 2017. It's quietened down a fair bit now.

But it doesn't matter in a way because the line will always be something that makes Brexit sound like a good/noble idea. Latterly, it morphed into how the EU's being intractable and using NI as a bargaining chip to keep the UK attached to the EU. The only admittance Nigel Farage would do that things could have been handled better would be about politicians or political groups contrary to his.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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