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Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • #3482
    BobbyBobberson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭BobbyBobberson


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    I was just about to point out that ...
    when you did your own research (Tip of the Day: in future do that before you start arguing against a valid point); and then I was going to compliment you on a graceful climbdown - but then you went and ruined everything with a petty

    Not to mention this nonsense:

    Remind me again how it benefits Northern Ireland to be under British control? With particular reference to "equity, rights, separating church and state, etc". The words "gay marriage" and "abortion" and "no government for more than two years" come to mind.

    Exactly. NI is the second poorest region in the UK with a starting salary 14,000 less a year than ROI.


  • #3483
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,442 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Can you imagine living in the north which is a very small geographical area having tasted 40 years free movement and 20 years with no barriers at all - the psychological impact of having new barriers would be like being penned in to a corner of the island.

    Can't see people accepting that and particularly moderate unionists would be re-examining whether they are in the correct situation.


  • #3484
    BobbyBobberson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭BobbyBobberson


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Can you imagine living in the north which is a very small geographical area having tasted 40 years free movement and 20 years with no barriers at all - the psychological impact of having new barriers would be like being penned in to a corner of the island.

    Can't see people accepting that and particularly moderate unionists would be re-examining whether they are in the correct situation.

    Yup. Leaving NI in the Single Market would have transformed the place but unfortunately its the DUP that is deciding everything. less 300,000 votes and has the whole UK by the balls.


  • #3485
    Anthracite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭Anthracite


    downcow wrote: »
    This is an excellent post. Right on the money. Much of it I hadn't considered until reading. Thank you
    If we do enter a 50 year period of economic despair I guess we will just dig in like the Irish and become even more proud of our independence. At more or less every point over the last 100 years it would have benefited ROI economically (and indeed equity, rights, separating church and state, etc) to come back under British control - there weren't too many voices calling for it or complaining about the pain their decision caused.
    But by pursuing the path of open-mindedness and learning from other cultures we have now passed out the UK economically, democratically and socially.

    I'll remind you that only one of the UK and Ireland have an established church, and an unelected head of state.


  • #3486
    20silkcut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    Anthracite wrote: »
    But by pursuing the path of open-mindedness and learning from other cultures we have now passed out the UK economically, democratically and socially.

    I'll remind you that only one of the UK and Ireland have an established church, and an unelected head of state.



    Brexit has revealed staggering ignorance among the general population of Great Britain on world trade, world history, and geography and why things are the way they are.
    The education system must be producing this ignorance.


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  • #3487
    Roanmore
    Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Roanmore


    devnull wrote: »
    I'm not Adam Boulton's biggest fan but he's penned an excellent piece for Sky News today outlining the faux outrage about the 'lying' mainstream media from Brexiteers, who claim they've been set up, whilst at the same time trying to dictate what questions they are asked in interviews.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-like-it-or-not-heres-why-i-dont-make-deals-with-interviewees-11638768

    When Boulton asked Daniel Kawczynski about his attempts to draw in the government of another country to the United Kingdom's business and about the Marshall Plan, Kawczynski said that he was promised that he was not going to be asked the question, which seemed to be deflection.

    Of course the whole Brexiteers are now claiming that he has been set-up and this is proof that the mainstream media are setting them up for a fall. But the most interesting thing here is that it shows rather the opposite, that the Brexiteers want to take control of the media and dictate what questions can and cannot be asked, which is rather more worrying as this really would mean the freedom of the media is at serious risk.

    If the UK can't hold their politicians to account and the people making the calls and big rhetoric don't want to back it up or face questions on them and instead carry out faux outrage to hide the fact there's no substance to what they are actually claiming, then no wonder it's in this mess.

    Was never a big fan of his but he has been excellent on Brexit. And fair.


  • #3488
    Anthracite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭Anthracite


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The EU is not a sovereign entity. It is not a country.

    It is a tading bloc members can leave at any time.

    Total nonsense to compare Brexit with Irish independence. Ridiculous hyperbole.
    I think this comes down to a combination of ignorance and a sense of entitlement about the EU that bespeaks a heritage of imperial domination and abuse of other nations. I see this in two main areas:

    1. The arrogance of expecting to be able to leave a club and keep the benefits - not being allowed to do so is 'bullying'

    and

    2. The inability to understand the concept of an organisation where nobody dominates or rules the others and is run on a consensus basis.


  • #3489
    Anthracite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭Anthracite


    BobbyBobberson wrote: »
    Exactly. NI is the second poorest region in the UK with a starting salary 14,000 less a year than ROI.
    But mother England cares deeply about its Irish subjects - possibly they are being held back by the Irishman's innate stupidity?


  • #3490
    20silkcut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    downcow wrote: »
    I was not comparing them. I don't know if this is a concerted attempt to get me sanctioned, but i point out again I was clearly comparing desire for independence and not comparing the situations.
    It wasn't even me pointed out the comparison - if you look back

    Desire for independence when ye already have it.

    Desire for free trade agreements when ye already have them.

    At least we gained our own parliament when we achieved independence.

    Britain will be looking for something it already has . It is a nonsensical argument.


  • #3491
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    downcow wrote: »
    Getting back to where checks will be. Do you guys think in a no deal situation that your government will prioritise protection of the GFA of any annoyance a few checks at the southern ports would cause?
    Again not my question but i think it is a really important one - and please lets not get back into whos fault Brexit is, i would just like to know which position you think your government will take

    This is a really interesting and revealing post about you. For it betrays your actual thoughts. You have essentially been parroting the DUP line, that brexit will not affect the GFA, but here you show that you actually think it is in contravention, yet you have no problem with it.


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  • #3492
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    downcow wrote: »
    Getting back to where checks will be. Do you guys think in a no deal situation that your government will prioritise protection of the GFA of any annoyance a few checks at the southern ports would cause?
    Again not my question but i think it is a really important one - and please lets not get back into whos fault Brexit is, i would just like to know which position you think your government will take

    Okay.

    Why are you asking if it is not your question?

    As you are the poster who was not even aware of their own PM's red lines for negotiations, at what point will you consider that you are woefully inadequately informed to have an opinion on this?

    There are several threads now pointing out the desire in Ireland for no border on the island but faced with with rank stupidity in the part of the UK, having put monumental effort into protecting the whole island, Dublin will protect most of the island if it comes to a choice between none of the island and most of the island. And that decision will be directly caused as a result of British actions and decisions.

    And ineptitude to be frank. But as you wax on about Brexit being a whole UK decision, you own it.

    But you know this. Any intelligent person who understands what the EU is, why its rules are as they are, and what the UK PM's negotiating framework was would not need it spelled out.

    Either you understand or you don't. I think you understand so I question your motivation in asking questions that are not yours.


  • #3493
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,050 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Havockk wrote: »
    This is a really interesting and revealing post about you. For it betrays your actual thoughts. You have essentially been parroting the DUP line, that brexit will not affect the GFA, but here you show that you actually think it is in contravention, yet you have no problem with it.

    Absolutely not. I believe a border will have no significant impact on peace or gfa. My question is based on the fact that roi are claiming that above all they want to protect gfa by having no border. If there is a no deal are we going to quickly discover that the gfa does not even mean enough to roi to negotiate on spreading checks between Irish Sea and English Channel.
    I would love some to address this. Do they care about gfa or not. You can’t have it both ways.


  • #3494
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    downcow wrote: »
    Absolutely not. I believe a border will have no significant impact on peace or gfa. My question is based on the fact that roi are claiming that above all they want to protect gfa by having no border. If there is a no deal are we going to quickly discover that the gfa does not even mean enough to roi to negotiate on spreading checks between Irish Sea and English Channel.
    I would love some to address this. Do they care about gfa or not. You can’t have it both ways.

    As a fellow Northerner, bring a hard border. I know that will only expedite the rush to unification. No problems with that at all. We can follow the terms of the GFA and have a good old poll of our own.


  • #3495
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,050 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Calina wrote: »
    Okay.

    Why are you asking if it is not your question?

    As you are the poster who was not even aware of their own PM's red lines for negotiations, at what point will you consider that you are woefully inadequately informed to have an opinion on this?

    There are several threads now pointing out the desire in Ireland for no border on the island but faced with with rank stupidity in the part of the UK, having put monumental effort into protecting the whole island, Dublin will protect most of the island if it comes to a choice between none of the island and most of the island. And that decision will be directly caused as a result of British actions and decisions.

    And ineptitude to be frank. But as you wax on about Brexit being a whole UK decision, you own it.

    But you know this. Any intelligent person who understands what the EU is, why its rules are as they are, and what the UK PM's negotiating framework was would not need it spelled out.

    Either you understand or you don't. I think you understand so I question your motivation in asking questions that are not yours.

    Honestly. I think it is a very interesting question and I can’t imagine how you could answer it without demonstrating clearly that roi is maliciously useing the gfa. The reason I said it was not my question is because it was asked originally by someone else and I did not want the plaudits for such a wonderful question which some one else asked.
    Now what about playing the ball and not the man and have a go at the question


  • #3496
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    So if a border goes up you think that proves that ROI never cared for GFA and are happy to see it fold?

    To what end? The benefits of GFA are massive and have saved both ROI and UK massively. On what basis do you think the government of Ireland now what to get rid of the GFA?

    So the UK leave without a deal, despite a deal their PM asked for and fully backed being available, and yet you claim claim that ROI would have dumped on the GFA.

    Even if that were true, it isn't, that logically admits that the UK failure to sign the WA means they have dumped on the GFA. An agreement that the majority in NI, and I know how much you hold dear the will of the people, backed.


  • #3497
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    downcow wrote: »
    Absolutely not. I believe a border will have no significant impact on peace or gfa. My question is based on the fact that roi are claiming that above all they want to protect gfa by having no border. If there is a no deal are we going to quickly discover that the gfa does not even mean enough to roi to negotiate on spreading checks between Irish Sea and English Channel.
    I would love some to address this. Do they care about gfa or not. You can’t have it both ways.

    Who voted for Brexit, remind us, and which country should be making the sacrifices, the one which voted or the one which did not?


  • #3498
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    downcow wrote: »
    Honestly. I think it is a very interesting question and I can’t imagine how you could answer it without demonstrating clearly that roi is maliciously useing the gfa. The reason I said it was not my question is because it was asked originally by someone else and I did not want the plaudits for such a wonderful question which some one else asked.
    Now what about playing the ball and not the man and have a go at the question

    I answered the question. You cannot read.


  • #3499
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,050 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So if a border goes up you think that proves that ROI never cared for GFA and are happy to see it fold?

    To what end? The benefits of GFA are massive and have saved both ROI and UK massively. On what basis do you think the government of Ireland now what to get rid of the GFA?

    On the basis that they don’t cure about gfa enough to swallow there pride and have a discussion how checks can be shared out at various points. I’m not saying they should
    , I’m just saying it seems fact that their pride is being put ahead of gfa and yet they claim the gfa is paramount


  • #3500
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,050 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Calina wrote: »
    Who voted for Brexit, remind us, and which country should be making the sacrifices, the one which voted or the one which did not?

    With respect that does not address the question.


  • #3501
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    downcow wrote: »
    On the basis that they don’t cure about gfa enough to swallow there pride and have a discussion how checks can be shared out at various points. I’m not saying they should
    , I’m just saying it seems fact that their pride is being put ahead of gfa and yet they claim the gfa is paramount

    You have already said that a border wouldn't affect the GFA? Makes this a bit redundant surely lol


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  • #3502
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭Russman


    downcow wrote: »
    Absolutely not. I believe a border will have no significant impact on peace or gfa. My question is based on the fact that roi are claiming that above all they want to protect gfa by having no border. If there is a no deal are we going to quickly discover that the gfa does not even mean enough to roi to negotiate on spreading checks between Irish Sea and English Channel.
    I would love some to address this. Do they care about gfa or not. You can’t have it both ways.

    Of course Ireland cares about the GFA, but they will be in a position where they have no real choice in the matter. Putting checks between Ireland and France makes no sense whatsoever, to even suggest that is crazy tbh. We’d be hitching our trailer to the Brexit juggernaut going over the cliff, why would anyone do that ??

    There is simply no metric by which Brexit makes any sense at all - every single outcome is going to be bad/worse, yet the UK seem intent on going for worst possible.


  • #3503
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,050 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Calina wrote: »
    I answered the question. You cannot read.

    Would it be fair of me to sum up your answer as.
    Roi will not discuss sharing where checks take place even if they think that would maintain peace in Ireland ?


  • #3504
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Pride? This is about rules not feelings.

    The UK have stated their do not care about the GFA by refusing to sign the WA as negotiated by the PM.

    Now, you don't value the GFA, don't believe it should have been passed and don't think loack of borders played any role in its success

    So it seems strange that you seem to want the ROI to protect something that you think is useless


  • #3505
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    downcow wrote: »
    With respect that does not address the question.

    Okay.

    Are you familiar with the sign in shops *You broke it, you own it*?

    In order words, in umplementing Brexit, the UK is the one which has to make economically damaging sacrifices.

    We wanted none of this. That means if you are so gung ho on Brexit, it is your economy which by your choice makes the sacrifices. We have tried to mitigate. We even came up with a solution that was massively in Northern Ireland's interest. You via the DUP rejected it.

    At some point the interests of nearly five million people in Ireland have to be the focus of their elected representatives. We will choose accordingly.

    You are asking that we make a sacrifice so you can have your sunlit uplands.

    We didn't get a choice on Brexit. 450 million people did not. We will organise our affairs as we sit fit. We tried to help you.

    Our country is not divided here. You hung yourselves out to dry. You want to drag us with you.

    We are not enthusiastic.


  • #3506
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    downcow wrote: »
    Would it be fair of me to sum up your answer as.
    Roi will not discuss sharing where checks take place even if they think that would maintain peace in Ireland ?

    No it would not.


  • #3507
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Leroy42 wrote: »

    So it seems strange that you seem to want the ROI to protect something that you think is useless

    Someone posted a video from the Guardian earlier which tells us all we need to know why Unionism has gone all in with Brexit.

    John Harris speaks to two women from the 'unionist' community. The young lady wants a United Ireland and the older one threatened war.

    For Unionism, this is the very last chance to save the 'Union' it's a desperate gambit that as we all know is destined to fail.

    From 12.40 here:



  • #3508
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    downcow wrote: »
    You keep doing this. You make stuff up to suit your argument and then say it with confidence in the hope it won't be question. Heres just a few from this post:
    Milk is not seasonal - there is a tiny uplift at the height of the summer but the pricing structure ensures winter milk is incentifised thereby all but cancelling out fluctuation.
    Almost all milk that goes south is turned into long life products eg baby formula, cheese etc.
    Almost all the product returns to the UK.
    The main tennent of your argument is that ROI will not take NI milk leaving the farmers stuck with it, but the UK will desperately need ROI milk - lol the NI farmers must be going to pour all their milk out just to annoy the Brits lol

    Well considering Ivor Ferguson is openly saying a no-deal brexit will have 50% of NI farmers going out of business I think they may have bigger worries just keeping the lights on.
    Should i Lol?


  • #3509
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    downcow wrote: »
    Absolutely not. I believe a border will have no significant impact on peace or gfa. My question is based on the fact that roi are claiming that above all they want to protect gfa by having no border. If there is a no deal are we going to quickly discover that the gfa does not even mean enough to roi to negotiate on spreading checks between Irish Sea and English Channel.
    I would love some to address this. Do they care about gfa or not. You can’t have it both ways.

    You're increasingly difficult to deal with.

    This isn't about pride from the Irish, this about keeping our borders with the EU open.

    If anyone is guilty of pride, it's definitely the UK thinking they're stronger without the EU, which is insanity.


  • #3510
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    downcow wrote: »
    Would it be fair of me to sum up your answer as.
    Roi will not discuss sharing where checks take place even if they think that would maintain peace in Ireland ?
    Answer my question please. How do French customs tell apart chlorinated and non chlorinated chicken in an Irish chicken product?


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  • #3511
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    boggerman1 wrote: »
    No.rule Britannia,Britannia rules the waves

    Britannia doesn't even rule Scottish waters.

    The Faroe Islands have a one sided relationship with the rest of the world. 98% of their exports are seafood and they import practically everything that isn't food.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47213842?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cq23pdgvg8vt/faroe-islands&link_location=live-reporting-story
    Fish and crustaceans made up the vast majority of UK's imports from the Faroes in 2017, worth £201.7m, while total UK exports to the country were worth only £6m - mostly machinery and mechanical appliances.

    The UK has used the Hard Power of the Royal Navy to renegotiate a deal with them that will allow the Faroese to continue to sell Scottish fish back to Scotland.

    I shudder to think how much that little deal will cost them in the long run when dealing with the likes of Japan, USA or China.


This discussion has been closed.
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