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Tantrums, any advice?

  • 18-08-2005 7:50pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 896 ✭✭✭


    Hi, im putting this up here for my sister.

    She has a 17 month old, he is the best, and as a nephew i love him, and spoil him with pressies too much prob lol. The problem is when he is bieng put in the car seat, or into a high chair, he bangs his head forwards and backwards trying to hit you, and kicks and punches out at the same time. You may think im over exagerating, but my mother ( His nana ) has 2 bruises on her leg from trying to change him. We have different ways of letting him know he is doing wrong, but my sister admits she does things wrong, ie: if he hits her, she will pretend to cry to get him to stop, or say dont do that in a loud voice. My personal opinion is to say one word that they can identify with, NO!. and i wave my finger in a " No No " way. My mother thinks if he hits her, the best way is to stay silent and stare him. Now dont get me wrong, he is no evil child or anything, he is very loving, very playfull etc, and will run up to everyone in the family and hug them, its just my sister is worried as he starts creche in november, and she is afraid he would behave the same way there, and maybe get thrown out wcs. Anyone have any advice on a way of dealing with this that works, and can be done anytime anywhere.? he has started to climb out of his buggy and throw a fit when he is put back in.

    Any suggestions welcome.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Berger


    If the kid hits you, you damn well hit it back. It's pretty obvious like, even if it is only 17 months. If you dont teach it now it'll be walking all over you when it's older.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Do not put up with them.
    It is har at that age to make a baby understand.
    under two is still a baby but they have enough understanding of what
    is not allowed.
    A bribe might work be a good boy and you can have....
    a stern talking to before the things that trigger the tantrum.
    Time to have your nappy done / get into the car and Mammy needs you to be
    a big good grown up boy.
    Encourage the good behaviour build it up so not throwing a tantrum at that time
    gets him lots of hugs and praise.

    If he does lash out then play the really upset crying you hurt me card.
    Tell those there at the time he hurt you and get them all to voice thier disproval.

    As a last resort you may well have to after he hurts you give him a sligh slap.
    Just enough to make him say 'owwww' and tell him you dont hurt me and I wont hurt you.

    all kids go through this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 896 ✭✭✭Subliminal


    Thanks for your replies, its good to know she is not alone, or that he has problems outta the norm etc. I think i will try the playing hurt card, and my sister will be reading the posts 2moro, so thanks again.

    Sub


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Johnny_the_fox


    Berger wrote:
    If the kid hits you, you damn well hit it back. It's pretty obvious like, even if it is only 17 months. If you dont teach it now it'll be walking all over you when it's older.

    totally disagree with you... you should never hit a child - for any reason.

    with this theory - "If the kid hits you, you damn well hit it back" - the child would learn this, and was quite likely use force on other young children.. at this stage in a childs life - the child copies peoples actions around him/herself.

    the best way to deal - is a bribe and maybe distraction

    or maybe a way round the high chair saga - maybe get a wee table and chair - at teach the child to be independent and eat on their *own*.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Berger


    No you're wrong. People these days are far too against smacking their kids and it's stupid. Why should you have to bribe or distract your kid? Just give it a whallop and it probably won't do it again.

    As for hitting other people if your parents hit you? Thats bullsh*t. I don't go around beating people up if I dont get my way. Get a clue mang.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,659 ✭✭✭Shabadu


    Berger wrote:
    No you're wrong. People these days are far too against smacking their kids and it's stupid. Why should you have to bribe or distract your kid? Just give it a whallop and it probably won't do it again.

    As for hitting other people if your parents hit you? Thats bullsh*t. I don't go around beating people up if I dont get my way. Get a clue mang.
    Is there any way we could reform the Parenting Charter to prevent those who have less than a clue as to how to raise and discipline a child from posting inflammatory nonsense?

    I would greatly appreciate it.

    OP, Thaed's advice is spot on. The best way for children to learn good behaviour is through positive reinforcement.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Berger wrote:
    If the kid hits you, you damn well hit it back. It's pretty obvious like, even if it is only 17 months. If you dont teach it now it'll be walking all over you when it's older.

    Could you be anymore wrong?! :eek:

    Mini me was a saint up until the terrible twos, then she turned into the baby from hell for a little while.
    At first, when she threw her tantrums, I was at a loss as to what to do, it was my one and only time to resort to my mothers method, ie, I gave her a slap, yes, Berger, a slap, she slapped me back harder, violence breeds violence and all it does at the end of the day is build up anger in both you and your child.
    I did a parenting class, I cannot recommend them enough, they should be mandatory for all parents!
    One think I did learn, as Thaed said, always give them two choices, ie – before leaving the house, say something like “I will be putting you in the car seat in a minute, if you behave I shall give you [insert treat here, box of raisons or whatever], if you start crying, there will be no treat".
    Continue to do this and it will work eventually.
    I remember mini me lying down on a the floor of a chain store and throwing an almighty tantrum cos I refused to buy her something. I just walked off and left her (hiding around the next aisle) she stopped as soon as she saw I wasn't there to see it anymore. Tantrums are their way of demanding attention, if they don't get it, there's no point to the tantrum in the first place.
    Things that are important with babies:
    Be consistent
    Tell your sister to cut that crying thing out, otherwise the child will soon learn that perhaps it will also work for him and then she will be stuck with a crying child all the time.
    Never threaten to do something that you cannot follow through on, and always give choices.
    Btw Berger, all of the above has worked a treat for me and I now have a wonderful, well rounded, well behaved, 17 year old daughter who never caused me a days worry. I never had to slap her for her to know who was boss, I worked damn hard at being totally consistent and always kept my word when threatening to do something if she did not behave.
    Kids are not stupid and you have to be fair but firm at all times, that way they know where they stand with you.
    My parents did nothing but slap us, all I learned from that was to not get caught next time and I hated them with a passion for many, many years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 896 ✭✭✭Subliminal


    Beruthiel wrote:
    I gave her a slap, yes, Berger, a slap, she slapped me back harder, violence breeds violence and all it does at the end of the day is build up anger in both you and your child.

    Couldnt agree more, she has never slapped him, but when trying to block him kicking during nappy change etc, he would kick harder or laugh and make a game out of it. Beruthiel, your post makes perfect sense to me ( and my sister as she has read it ) for 1 simple word.... consistantcy. I strongly belive that whatever way you deal with it ( Exept Hitting ) the most important thing is consistantcy. once he knows that kicking gets him a definite punishment, he will learn not to kick etc. I can imagine that was and is a very hardworking way of doing things, but as you say, that is what is required if you want a) the best for your child, and b) for the child to grow up a well rounded teen/adult. Thanks all for your comments, wasnt expecting to get so many responses, My sister aprriciated them all. She has decided upon a system:

    Talk to him before the car seat/highchair/nappy change
    Reward him with both a little gift AND plenty of praise.

    She is going to make sure he understands, that if he misbehaves 20 times, he will be punished 20 times ( No toys/treat etc ) and not to lapse into a im tired, ill punish him tommorow wtc....100% promise on misbehavour.

    And that all said, Thanks to Boards.ie for providing such a rare, well run forum that is boards.ie, good work all round i say.

    Sub.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Shabadu wrote:
    Is there any way we could reform the Parenting Charter to prevent those who have less than a clue as to how to raise and discipline a child from posting inflammatory nonsense?

    I would greatly appreciate it.

    OP, Thaed's advice is spot on. The best way for children to learn good behaviour is through positive reinforcement.

    I can amend the charter to cover inflammatory nonsense and insults and
    personal attckes.

    Subliminal,
    I would suggest that you sister find out about the advailiblity of parenting
    classes near to her. Most primary schools run and and are usually thrilled
    to offer them to parents even before thier child is school going age.
    or at least get a parenting book that herself and your mam can read and
    what way be working from the same plan.

    This set of books are used in my local primary school and my parents used
    a older verison waaaay back when on my younger siblings.

    http://www.familycaring.co.uk/

    http://www.familycaring.co.uk/course_parents.htm

    The first book covers from birth to aged six.
    Easons may have them if not I know they have ordered them in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    http://www.familycaring.co.uk/summary1session.htm
    CHAPTER 1:- Behaviour you don’t like.
    Give less attention to misbehaviour – it needs an audience

    * don’t take the bait
    * silence – the under used tool!
    * If possible, leave the room.

    Give more attention to good behaviour

    * ‘catch’ your child doing good
    * give lots of affection

    Look after yourself; find a release for stress:

    * hot bath
    * deep breathing
    * a walk
    * a whole cup of hot coffee all to yourself!
    * say no to guilt!
    * settle for being less than perfect.



    CHAPTER 2:- Encouragement and your child’s development.
    In order to give more attention to good behaviour:



    * Give positive attention when your child is not expecting/demanding it.
    * Reward good behaviour, attempts and effort with – listening/ touching/ cuddling/ playing/ smiling/ laughing/ singing.
    * Relax and enjoy your children –
    their childhood goes so fast! So take time out with your child – and **** the hoovering!

    All this can create a positive effect on you too.


    CHAPTER 3:- Listening means paying attention.
    Be aware that…

    * Good listening involves eyes, arms and body position as well as ears.
    * It cannot be done all the time.

    Benefits include…

    * Children who are shown respect and concern learn to respect themselves and become more confident – one day your child may be a husband/wife!.
    * They will learn to articulate feelings rather than act them out.
    * It helps with adults as well aswith children!




    CHAPTER 4:- Talking with your child.
    Negatives

    * Often our tone of voice and content show a lack of respect.
    * Reduce aggression and use a gentler tone (cut out (or cut down on) threats, blaming, shaming and name calling).
    * Cut back on corrections, instructions, warnings – especially with over 1 year olds.

    Positives

    * Make time to talk!
    * Use “I” or “me” rather than “you…”.
    * Explain / discuss your own feelings with your children. (Adults have feelings and needs too.).
    * Children who live with intolerance learn to be intolerant. If they live with respect they learn to respect themselves and others.




    CHAPTER 5:- Discipline.
    Remember...

    * Children will often push to find out where limits are.
    * Discipline is not forcing or coaxing them to do what we want but helping them to learn self discipline, partly from consequences of their own actions.
    * The best discipline comes from making time for positive loving attention.

    Give them a choice, but be a little flexible

    * set rules that are realistic – and not too many of them
    * consult children and make rules together
    * give them a choice (both choices acceptable to you!)
    * let them sort out their own disagreements themselves?

    A choice can diffuse situations

    * doesn’t end up in power struggles
    * doesn’t humiliate the child
    * leaves both adult and child with self-respect



    CHAPTER 6:- Quality time.
    More precious than all the toys money can buy. Children grow up so quickly, and no one ever died wishing they’d spent more time in the office or doing housework!

    Positive parenting is not so much what you do but how time is spent, with focused attention, patience, affection, listening and talking.

    But be gentle with yourself (too much dust can be depressing)

    * change doesn’t happen overnight
    * settle for being a less than perfect parent

    don’t forget your own life!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 471 ✭✭Debracd


    Theads advice is bang on!

    I was just going to post REMOVE attention for bad behaviour.. and only give it for good!

    So when he kicks up getting into the chair.. put him down and say OK Don't then.. turn you back.. and when he comes lookin for your attention.. keep turning away. Give him a minute to throw a hissy fit.. then say.. Ohh do you want to get into your chair for me now???

    He may not take the bate the first couple of times.. but eventually he will.. and when he does .. throw a party!!!!! Well over do it on the praise at least! You only have to do that the first 10 times or so.. after that a 'well done' will do the job ;)

    HTH

    Deb


  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭mmclo


    All good advice, most of all important ot remember that tantrums and other perceived negatives like not shairng are all positive developmental signs for toddlers. Gettinmg out of the buggy or high chair are annoying but show an independent streak which all children need to develop. Would we be happier if they sat there listless and inactive??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    mmclo wrote:
    All good advice, most of all important ot remember that tantrums and other perceived negatives like not shairng are all positive developmental signs for toddlers.
    Agreed. At that age they're finding ways they can make things happen and affect their environment. They just need to be guided as to which are and which aren't acceptable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    Do the people who advocated slapping toddlers have kids?

    I am not completely against corporal punishment; however it will not be effective with toddlers as they don't (certainly at 17 months) have any notion of cause and effect.

    If I can't understand why you hit me hitting me won't make me change my behaviour.

    There is no effetcive way to deal with toddler tantrums, they cannot control them. Unlike older children they aren't 'putting them on' toddlers lack emotional control.
    Just don't respond. The 'fake crying' that was mentioned above won't work at this point. It works well from about the age of three. However a 17 month old isn't really going to care if he hurt you. In fact he will probably be pleased.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27 BIRDCAGE


    Some of the advise here is very good, we have a 2 1/2 year old son who starting going through the tantrum stage about a year ago, our local PHN suggested a book to us "Taming Toddlers" by Dr Christopher Green, which had most of the good advise dished out above about ignoring tantrums etc.., there is also a very good chapter on sleep problems. We have recommended it to all our friends with children.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    My son (now 6) started into the terrible twos and used to pull three tricks mainly:

    - Lie on the floor kicking and shouting, no matter where we were / One day I lied down beside him and started doing exactly the same. He stopped, looked at me and started to laugh. He never did it again. (Copying the other person is one of the techniques in rapport building, and I decided to try it on my son, it works!!!)
    - Hitting and kicking/ I would explain it hurted and if he did it again I would poke him lightly with my indicator to show it hurted and explained it to him. After a while he stopped. Not sure if it was because he got the message or if he got tired of my finger. Every time he threatened to start hitting me I would show him my finger and he would start laughing...
    - Refusing to get into car seat/ I noticed he would do it particularly to my wife when he noticed she was in a hurry. I made an effort to ensure I would always make time to let him shout it out by leaving the car, returning every once in a while to ask him if he was done, without showing any anger or showing frustration. That took a while to work, maybe a couple of months...

    On some occasions he also had tantrums that he obviously didn't know how to get out of them, and the best method we found was to hug him (almost restraining him sometimes) and hold him untill he calmed down while saying things like "it's ok"

    I always tried not to give bribes to avoid/stop bad behaviour (it is not always possible). But I always try to recognise good behaviour and communicate using as much common sense as possible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Subliminal, the best way of stopping tantrums is to avoid their causes. So if possible, when a child is going to have a tantrum in a particular situation, you avoid that situation.

    If a child has tantrums in the supermarket, for instance, don't bring him there. If he's been good and you bring him and he starts having a tantrum, just pick him up and carry him outside, without any emotion. Leave the groceries and bring him away from there. You can always go back and do the shop later.

    If he's having a tantrum when he's being strapped into the car seat or high chair, then she's going to have to approach this tactfully.

    Tell her to think of it as being entrusted with a cranky old venture capitalist whose money your firm badly wants!

    So you carry the kid (or walk him) out to the car, open the door and invite him to get into the car seat. He may get in quite happily *if he's doing it himself*, even though he won't let you lift him up and strap him in.

    Once he's in, give him a treat, and praise him like mad. "Ooh, you did that *very* well! Excellent!"

    Now there's the business of the straps. Hold the strap open and smile and invite him to put his arm through. If he says "NO!", ignore it, and say "I'm going to put *my* arm through!" and do it and laugh. If he's human at all, he'll laugh too. Make a game of it.

    With any luck you can soon invent the Car Climbing In and Strapping In Game, with its own catchphrases or song, and he'll enjoy the whole thing.

    With the high chair, try moving the chair to a different position at the table, with enormous fuss. "Peadar's a *big* boy now, and so his high chair is in the *big boy's* place!"

    You might also get a different coloured harness for it, a "big boy's harness" - and go through the same biz as with the car one, only this time with different catchphrases.

    If your sister teaches him that slapping is how you get things done, it'll teach him one way of dealing with things; if she teaches him that fun and diplomacy are how you get things done, she'll teach him another.

    I can tell her from experience that fun and diplomacy make things a lot easier as life goes on than slapping does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39 sharonlarkin


    Hi

    I have a 20 month old and a few months back he started doing the same. So everytime he kicked or threw a bit of a tantrum I put him in his cot for 15 minutes. He cried for a while, When I went back up to him I asked him was he going to stop kicking and hitting. Eventually after a few weeks of being put to bed, he stopped. Now he will try it once in a while. and I do the exact same thing. He's learning but it does take time.

    If you do decide to put him to bed make sure you tell him what he is going there for. Most people think that kids his age won't pick up on things just by telling him. But he will, no child is stupid. And if he gets sent to bed enough times for the same thing, he'll come to the conclusion that he'll have to stop or he's going back to bed.

    Good Luck, Boys can be right demons


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Thaed wrote:

    Great quote, Thaed :)

    To my own surprise, I have been behaving pretty much like those guidelines. I'm not saying it is easy though
    luckat wrote:
    the best way of stopping tantrums is to avoid their causes

    If only one could! The worst ones at the moment are changing nappy and especially going into the pram for a midday nap. She's 17 months now. The latter worries or more accurately, mystifies me. She is very physical as in giving out and trying to force her way out of the pram under very loud protest. She even resorts to scratching (more so to mummy than daddy - anyone any idea why?)Once I'm after preventing her from doing that and managing to strap her in, she usually goes to sleep relatively easy

    And that's when she's grand while she's not teething :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    When mammy is the primary care giver of a child you do bear the brunt of
    a lot of them lashing out. (even if both parents are working)
    You are the one ruining thier fun, mkaing them eat, get dressed , telling them
    what to do and what not to do.
    It is hard put you have to learn to do fun stuff with them as well.
    Make getting her into the buggy part of a game, sing a song or play
    peepo with her when she is in to distract her.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    unkel wrote:
    The worst ones at the moment are changing nappy
    My niece was pure evil during nappy changing (even before the smell :D), my sisters solution was to give her another nappy to play with to distract her.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Thaed wrote:
    When mammy is the primary care giver of a child you do bear the brunt of a lot of them lashing out

    She is the primary care giver but there is not that much of a difference in it. I've made it my mission from the start though that I can fully take care of my baby girl. I wanted to be able to do it all myself if needs be. I cannot be her mother though, so you're probably right there :)

    Thinking back to my own childhood, it might also be related to fathers being naturally more authoritarian or put simplistically, more to be feared
    Victor wrote:
    My niece was pure evil during nappy changing (even before the smell :D), my sisters solution was to give her another nappy to play with to distract her.

    Ah she's not that bad, although we've tried giving her anything to play with to distract her, including nappies to not much avail really. It's easy enough if two people change her nappy, one to change the nappy and one to distract her. Starting to sound like a Kerry man joke there, so we won't entertain it!

    Still bugs me why she's so violently opposed to go into her pram for her midday sleep. Literally, as soon as she is strapped in and lowered into a horizontal position and we start to move her (total time to complete about 30 seconds when we are determined) she's grand and she'd fall asleep within minutes


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    OK, a couple of suggestions in re nappies and sleep tantrums.

    First, the sleep tantrum. This is a trick, and if you do it now it will stand to you for years.

    Decide on a particular CD - may I recommend some Chopin waltzes? - and when the child actually drops off, put it on softly. *Always the same CD.*

    When you've done this for a while - say a week - start putting that CD on as soon as it's nap time. This particular CD has been associated with sleepytime, and the kid will start getting sleepy as soon as she hears it.

    Don't give up playing it when things go well, though - in a few months, when the child is a schoolgirl, you're going to have to get her to bed early, and it'll be set by then as the music that switches on the sleepy feeling.

    Now, the nappies. I wonder if the kid isn't showing the first signal that she's getting near the time when nappies during the day won't be necessary?

    All across the Orient it's the norm for mothers to hold babies over a potty and go "ssss sssss sssss ssss ssss" when the baby is peeing. After a while, they're able to hold the baby over a potty and make the sss-sss noise and the baby will pee reflexively if its bladder is full. (The mothers learn early to know when a baby's going to pee.)

    Same thing with bowel movements: the mother will make grunting noises to encourage the baby, and since most babies are on a fairly regular schedule of when they poo, the mother can soon know when to take the nappy off, hold the baby over the potty, make grunting noises and the kid will do its stuff.

    The main thing in doing this, though, is to be very aware of, and sensitive to, the baby's own body clock, so you know when to take the nappy off. It also needs you not to be worried about any accidents on the white silk carpet!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The music is a wonderful idea.
    I did it with certain pieces of music from when I was 5 mnth pregant with both my children.
    This still gets played while they are brushing thier teeth and settling into bed
    for a story.
    My boy never questioned it and it helps him relax.
    My girl at 5 is as sharp as a razor and while out for a drive one of the pieces
    of music came on the radio and she clamped her hands over her ears and
    asked for it to be turned off as she didnt want to go to sleep.

    Unkel maybe try letting you little one go for a nap in her bed.
    The buggy is great for rocking them off to sleep but there will come a time
    when the buggy and then lifting them to bed will not be a viable option.

    Oh and I am not doubting that Dads are not as hands on or as capable as
    Mams when it come for caring for thier little ones just usually most of the
    physical interaction in caring for a baby from the time it is born falls to the
    new mum.
    Dads that are as capalbe and compent as Mams ( and yes i know in some cases more so) and get stuck in rock.
    My own Dad did when I was in nappys 30 years ago much to my Grandmothers shock :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Thaed wrote:
    Unkel maybe try letting you little one go for a nap in her bed.
    The buggy is great for rocking them off to sleep but there will come a time
    when the buggy and then lifting them to bed will not be a viable option

    Oh, I know! We'll keep on trying. Looks like she's impatient like her Dad :(
    Thaed wrote:
    My own Dad did when I was in nappys 30 years ago much to my Grandmothers shock :D

    Brilliant! Fair play to your dad who was obviously ahead of his time and had the backbone to stand up and display :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Thaed wrote:
    My girl at 5 is as sharp as a razor and while out for a drive one of the pieces
    of music came on the radio and she clamped her hands over her ears and
    asked for it to be turned off as she didnt want to go to sleep.

    Heh!


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