Two More Bite the Dust

downthemiddle · 08-01-2018 4:01pm #1

With the recent closures of Slievenamon and Glenmalure two more golf clubs have fallen by the wayside. While I know neither would feature on a list of top courses you would have to feel sympathy for their loyal and committed members.
It is a reflection of the rapidly declining numbers playing golf, a trend that doesn't look like reversing anytime soon. Unfortunately there will be others that go to the wall before the market bottoms out.

ShriekingSheet · 08-01-2018 4:47pm

Sad news. Particularly for the local members who actually played the courses week in week out.

Slievenamon seemed to have a lot of Dublin members joining "to get a handicap", rather than to play golf at Slievenamon.

Since the recession, a couple of clubs in or nearer Dublin have been offering budget rates which must have hurt them.

In a way, we all probably have the likes of Slievenamon to thank for doing something to lower prices.

backspin. · 08-01-2018 4:56pm

There is still a demand for golf, our club saw a slight rise in membership over the last couple of years.

If there is an area with too many clubs it is no harm i think if the odd club closes and the members move to surrounding clubs making them more viable in the process.

ShriekingSheet · 08-01-2018 5:02pm

Yes to the above. Does Ireland simply need to get to a point where enough golf clubs close so that our supply is more in line with demand? It really does seem like we have a lot of struggling clubs. It's a harsh view of the world, but fewer clubs would mean healthier, more prosperous clubs.

I wouldn't make that point across the board. I just mean where there's a cluster in certain locations. North West Wicklow and South West Dublin is absolutely crazy.

Slade Valley, Beech Park, Tulfarris, Lisheen Springs, Blessington Lakes, Rathfarnham, Stackstown, Ballinascorney, Dublin Mountain, Newlands, Castlewarden... and then a bit further out you have Naas, K Club, Palmerstown, Craddockstown and Killeen reasonably close together.

Even though they are well populated areas, and some of the clubs do very well, many of them are not doing well. So you have this group of neighbouring clubs fighting for a share of the same small group of golfers.

As I said, it's an unpleasant view, and I don't even like saying it, but there's no huge upswing in golf participation for all of these clubs to prosper. Andy they can't run their businesses at a lower cost and charge less / operate on lower memberships. Some of them have to go.

Mantis Toboggan · 08-01-2018 5:18pm

The market will generally work itself out. Clubs that aren't viable will eventually close. There needs to be balance though, as soon as there's a shortage prices will increase and joining fees will be back. It's a bit like the housing crisis.

ShriekingSheet · 08-01-2018 5:19pm

Tyson Fury wrote: »

The market will generally work itself out. Clubs that aren't viable will eventually close. There needs to be balance though, as soon as there's a shortage prices will increase and joining fees will be back. It's a bit like the housing crisis.

True dat. But we're a long, long way from a shortage in certain areas.

jelutong · 08-01-2018 5:30pm

Waterford Golf Club, The Island, Dunmore, Williamstown,Tramore, Carrick on Suir,New Ross, Mountain View are all within a 15 mile radius of Waterford City.
A short drive so to speak..

Kingswood Rover · 08-01-2018 6:03pm

Are you sure slievennotabletospelltherest is actually closed they had a meeting on Friday night to try and see what could be done and their website is still promoting membership options.

HcksawJimDuggan · 08-01-2018 6:17pm

As per their facebook page, they informed members at the meeting on Friday night that the club is winding up.

downthemiddle · 08-01-2018 6:18pm

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Are you sure slievennotabletospelltherest is actually closed they had a meeting on Friday night to try and see what could be done and their website is still promoting membership options.

It’s published on their Facebook page

Kingswood Rover · 08-01-2018 6:57pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

It’s published on their Facebook page

Wow thought they would have the numbers to make it work.

Russman · 08-01-2018 9:43pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yes to the above. Does Ireland simply need to get to a point where enough golf clubs close so that our supply is more in line with demand? It really does seem like we have a lot of struggling clubs. It's a harsh view of the world, but fewer clubs would mean healthier, more prosperous clubs.

I wouldn't make that point across the board. I just mean where there's a cluster in certain locations. North West Wicklow and South West Dublin is absolutely crazy.

Slade Valley, Beech Park, Tulfarris, Lisheen Springs, Blessington Lakes, Rathfarnham, Stackstown, Ballinascorney, Dublin Mountain, Newlands, Castlewarden... and then a bit further out you have Naas, K Club, Palmerstown, Craddockstown and Killeen reasonably close together.

Even though they are well populated areas, and some of the clubs do very well, many of them are not doing well. So you have this group of neighbouring clubs fighting for a share of the same small group of golfers.

As I said, it's an unpleasant view, and I don't even like saying it, but there's no huge upswing in golf participation for all of these clubs to prosper. Andy they can't run their businesses at a lower cost and charge less / operate on lower memberships. Some of them have to go.

Agree with much of this. Unfortunately the number of golfers in Ireland will only support X number of clubs, we probably/arguably have 20 too many (complete guess ish). I'd say most clubs that are on the edge are holding their breath and hoping a) they're not next to go, and b) their neighbour does go so they can attract members. It's sad and unfortunate but what can you do ?

If 300,000 people emigrated during the recession and if even 2% of them were golfers, that's a fair number of clubs gone. That's before we consider lifestyle issues, longer working hours post recession etc etc.

As an aside, out of the paragraph above, have Blessington Lakes gone or are they still in existence ? I thought they were finished.

ShriekingSheet · 08-01-2018 10:56pm

Russman wrote: »

Agree with much of this. Unfortunately the number of golfers in Ireland will only support X number of clubs, we probably/arguably have 20 too many (complete guess ish). I'd say most clubs that are on the edge are holding their breath and hoping a) they're not next to go, and b) their neighbour does go so they can attract members. It's sad and unfortunate but what can you do ?

If 300,000 people emigrated during the recession and if even 2% of them were golfers, that's a fair number of clubs gone. That's before we consider lifestyle issues, longer working hours post recession etc etc.

As an aside, out of the paragraph above, have Blessington Lakes gone or are they still in existence ? I thought they were finished.

I don’t know. Hadn’t heard they went. Nice little 9 hope but a perfect example. You had to drive past 5 other golf clubs to get to it.

And I left City West out of the above as well!

Kingswood Rover · 09-01-2018 10:15am

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I don’t know. Hadn’t heard they went. Nice little 9 hope but a perfect example. You had to drive past 5 other golf clubs to get to it.

And I left City West out of the above as well!

Blessington lakes still going strong, the club have just put up their 2018 membership offers on the club website and in the light of the unfortunate news of Slievenamon closing Blessington Lakes do "distance" membership with a lot less distance for a similar sum.

downthemiddle · 09-01-2018 11:08am

Russman wrote: »

Agree with much of this. Unfortunately the number of golfers in Ireland will only support X number of clubs, we probably/arguably have 20 too many (complete guess ish). I'd say most clubs that are on the edge are holding their breath and hoping a) they're not next to go, and b) their neighbour does go so they can attract members. It's sad and unfortunate but what can you do ?

If 300,000 people emigrated during the recession and if even 2% of them were golfers, that's a fair number of clubs gone. That's before we consider lifestyle issues, longer working hours post recession etc etc.

As an aside, out of the paragraph above, have Blessington Lakes gone or are they still in existence ? I thought they were finished.

Unfortunately, as you say, there are clubs clinging on for dear life looking over their shoulder and hoping they're not next. The next few months, as renewals are due, will tell a lot for some of these clubs.

To misquote Mark Twain "Rumours of the demise of Blessington Lakes have been greatly exaggerated". The owners are nearing retirement and after twenty years in the business felt it was time to move on. They put the club on the market but the members got together and have agreed to lease the course from the owners. There was a comprehensive proposal put to the members by the new committee at the AGM and it was accepted unanimously. The committee are currently ahead of their proposed targets for the year and the club appears to be in a strong position to build for the future.

downthemiddle · 09-01-2018 11:17am

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I don’t know. Hadn’t heard they went. Nice little 9 hope but a perfect example. You had to drive past 5 other golf clubs to get to it.

And I left City West out of the above as well!

It depends on which direction you are driving from !!!

You could also include The Castle, Grange and of course the combination of the two Grange Castle in the list. There is a proliferation of clubs in the area and the only way for clubs to survive is to find their niche in the market and develop that.
Rathsallagh, Lisheen and City West have all undergone reinvention to varying degrees. Dublin Mountain is on the market and there are others on life support.
Baltinglass are an excellent example of what can be done. They have certainly turned the club around with a committed group of members who were prepared to work hard for something they believed in. They are a model other clubs could learn from.

Russman · 09-01-2018 11:27am

downthemiddle wrote: »

It depends on which direction you are driving from !!!

You could also include The Castle, Grange and of course the combination of the two Grange Castle in the list. There is a proliferation of clubs in the area and the only way for clubs to survive is to find their niche in the market and develop that.
Rathsallagh, Lisheen and City West have all undergone reinvention to varying degrees. Dublin Mountain is on the market and there are others on life support.
Baltinglass are an excellent example of what can be done. They have certainly turned the club around with a committed group of members who were prepared to work hard for something they believed in. They are a model other clubs could learn from.

I'd mostly agree with you up to a point, but with the best will in the world and all the commitment and enthusiasm you want, it ultimately comes down to finances and member numbers. There's simply no way round it.

Personally I wouldn't be including Grange or Castle on any list - IMO there's pretty much zero chance of those two running into difficulty, unless they were to do something completely stupid and go off the deep end altogether.

Russman · 09-01-2018 11:29am

downthemiddle wrote: »

Unfortunately, as you say, there are clubs clinging on for dear life looking over their shoulder and hoping they're not next. The next few months, as renewals are due, will tell a lot for some of these clubs.

To misquote Mark Twain "Rumours of the demise of Blessington Lakes have been greatly exaggerated". The owners are nearing retirement and after twenty years in the business felt it was time to move on. They put the club on the market but the members got together and have agreed to lease the course from the owners. There was a comprehensive proposal put to the members by the new committee at the AGM and it was accepted unanimously. The committee are currently ahead of their proposed targets for the year and the club appears to be in a strong position to build for the future.

Thanks for that, I didn't know the situation changed from a number of months ago.

Ya, you're right, sometime around April will be key for a lot of clubs when they finally get a handle on how many renewals they have and how many they may or may not have lost.

ShriekingSheet · 09-01-2018 12:10pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

You could also include The Castle, Grange and of course the combination of the two Grange Castle in the list.

Russman wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't be including Grange or Castle on any list - IMO there's pretty much zero chance of those two running into difficulty, unless they were to do something completely stupid and go off the deep end altogether.

Just for clarity, I wasn't listing "at risk" clubs. I was just listing clubs in a certain area to point out over supply. Grange and Castle are more in the suburbs, that's the only reason I left them out.

downthemiddle · 09-01-2018 12:10pm

Russman wrote: »

I'd mostly agree with you up to a point, but with the best will in the world and all the commitment and enthusiasm you want, it ultimately comes down to finances and member numbers. There's simply no way round it.

Personally I wouldn't be including Grange or Castle on any list - IMO there's pretty much zero chance of those two running into difficulty, unless they were to do something completely stupid and go off the deep end altogether.

I'm not including them as clubs that could run into difficulty, just as a further example of the high number of clubs within a small radius.

ShriekingSheet · 09-01-2018 12:11pm

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Blessington lakes still going strong, the club have just put up their 2018 membership offers on the club website and in the light of the unfortunate news of Slievenamon closing Blessington Lakes do "distance" membership with a lot less distance for a similar sum.

downthemiddle wrote: »

Unfortunately, as you say, there are clubs clinging on for dear life looking over their shoulder and hoping they're not next. The next few months, as renewals are due, will tell a lot for some of these clubs.

To misquote Mark Twain "Rumours of the demise of Blessington Lakes have been greatly exaggerated". The owners are nearing retirement and after twenty years in the business felt it was time to move on. They put the club on the market but the members got together and have agreed to lease the course from the owners. There was a comprehensive proposal put to the members by the new committee at the AGM and it was accepted unanimously. The committee are currently ahead of their proposed targets for the year and the club appears to be in a strong position to build for the future.

Delighted to hear that about Blessington Lakes - fair play to the members.

Kevinmarkham · 09-01-2018 5:12pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yes to the above. Does Ireland simply need to get to a point where enough golf clubs close so that our supply is more in line with demand? It really does seem like we have a lot of struggling clubs. It's a harsh view of the world, but fewer clubs would mean healthier, more prosperous clubs.

So you have this group of neighbouring clubs fighting for a share of the same small group of golfers.

As I said, it's an unpleasant view, and I don't even like saying it, but there's no huge upswing in golf participation for all of these clubs to prosper. Andy they can't run their businesses at a lower cost and charge less / operate on lower memberships. Some of them have to go.

Sheet, I don't think you should be worrying about whether it's an unpleasant view... it's a realistic one. Overall, GUI membership is down close to 25% since 2007 but the number of clubs we have lost (including Slievenamon and Glenmalure) is about 7-8%. That's a disparity that means a lot of clubs will struggle. I agree that in the clustered regions the closure of one or two courses would benefit the rest... but as this isn't happening, everyone is clinging on by the fingertips. There's a lot of positive news out there and clubs doing well... but unless a club closes most of us don't appreciate the struggles so many clubs are enduring.

Kevinmarkham · 09-01-2018 5:24pm

Neither of these courses is a main attraction so some golfers might think there isn't a problem with them closing. Members would disagree but, more importantly for Irish golf, we need courses of differing qualities for golfers of different abilities and means. People who take up the game are unlikely to launch their new sporting endeavours at a Carton House or a Greystones... they'll try the range and then step up at somewhere they can play without members throwing dagger stares because they take a massive divot... in the green;)

There are also plenty of people who have no desire to play the K Clubs of the world and are happy to knock a ball about in a 'field'... so if we lose these lower end clubs we are also losing a means of attracting new golfers to the game and those who just want to hit a ball.

I didn't rate either club but their closure is still a loss to the game.

JCDUB · 09-01-2018 8:45pm

I'm not sure of Slievenamons current status regarding handicap allocations, distance membership etc.
However I know historically they were very "loose," to say the least, leading to much speculation and a definite reputation.
If that is still the case then good riddance to them, no loss to the golfing community.

mike12 · 09-01-2018 8:53pm

Not sure things are that dire, we have gone to a waiting list for the first time ever club is full.

Think there are more people coming back into the game and there is a very healthy society scene which all clubs can cash in on.
The problem is that a lot of the member clubs don't allow societies out at the weekend missing out on lots of cash.

Ireland has 4 tiers of golf club.
The links courses, the majority of which will never be in trouble as they have the tourist industry to keep them going. And they are all super.
The resort courses and those attached to hotels, basically businesses. Prone to how the economy are doing but always have a bank to prop them up.
The members courses in affluent areas and the premium parkland courses will always be OK.
The small members courses are the ones always under pressure, a decision by an amateur committee over spending can have disastrous consequences.
In NCD there seems to be too many but since Hollywood lakes survived I haven't heard anyone else being in real trouble.

Kingswood Rover · 09-01-2018 9:55pm

Blessington lakes golf club now have a chance of being in control over their own destiny. The financial commitment the members are taking on in having full responsibility for the upkeep of the course and its facilities will not be without its challenges When the agreement is signed and sealed i have no doubt the boundless positivity, enthusiasm and problem solving skills of the men and women who have stepped up to the plate will succeed in making the club viable and so embedded into the local and surrounding communities that its future will never be in doubt.

Roger_007 · 09-01-2018 10:37pm

There are just too many golf clubs in certain areas.
The area that I am most familiar with is Co Meath. When I last counted there were 15 clubs in the county, virtually all of them in the south of the county. Three of them have more than 18 holes:- Headfort (36), Royal Tara (27) and Black Bush (27).
Many of these clubs were established in the last 20 years or so, in the expectation that they would get many members from Dublin. This did not happen as expected. It's difficult to see how all these clubs can survive.
By contrast in Co Louth, with a similar population, there are only 5 clubs, (or 6 if you count Townley Hall).

downthemiddle · 10-01-2018 1:00pm

Roger_007 wrote: »

There are just too many golf clubs in certain areas.
The area that I am most familiar with is Co Meath. When I last counted there were 15 clubs in the county, virtually all of them in the south of the county. Three of them have more than 18 holes:- Headfort (36), Royal Tara (27) and Black Bush (27).
Many of these clubs were established in the last 20 years or so, in the expectation that they would get many members from Dublin. This did not happen as expected. It's difficult to see how all these clubs can survive.
By contrast in Co Louth, with a similar population, there are only 5 clubs, (or 6 if you count Townley Hall).

Population of Louth 128,884
Population of Meath 194,942

thewobbler · 10-01-2018 2:51pm

Plus:

1. Louth is so small that almost every citizen is only 10 mins drive from Monaghan, Meath or Down. It’s not like some hard border prevents them joining clubs in neighbouring counties that are closer than those in their own!

2. Meath borders the most populous county in Ireland.

3. Carnbeg and Killen Park were both (from what i know) sustainable golf clubs in Louth that were converted into other uses in past decade. Throw those two in with Greenore, Ballymac, Dundalk, Ardee, Seapoint and Baltray and you’re not far off being in line with Meath courses per head of population.

Kayalahol · 10-01-2018 5:16pm

Great news about Blessington Lakes
The finest 9 hole course in the country with golf all year round (when some of the neighbouring courses are up to their knees in muck) The country membership.option offers far more than just three cards and a handicap they have comps for country members and treat them as an integral part of the club with many of them opting to upgrade to full membership. I feel if this membership option had not been available for the last number of years a great number more golfers would have been lost

PARlance · 10-01-2018 7:00pm

Boards would make a fortune if they charged Blessington Lakes and Corrstown for their members promoting on here.

It would turn me off playing the course. Trying too hard.

Two More Bite the Dust

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