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We need to talk...

  • 11-01-2018 8:48pm
    #1
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    ... and as a community/group make a set of guidelines for games going forward.

    Whatever about over on COP - that’s fair game - but here, on boards, there are boards rules that I have to adhere to.

    And forgetting about boards rules - simple game rules and everyone agreeing to be on the same page in terms of what is expected of everybody.

    Discuss.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    It's not just rules though. Every game has a set of rules. It's an agreement to not bend or flirt with the borders of those rules. Not find a loophole and take it without question.

    We can come up with rules all day long and if the will is there to try and find ways around them, we might as well not have bothered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    I've recused myself from WW. I thought I was tremendously clever and I was instead a tremendous arse. Everyone else followed the rules. Going forward it's not an issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Banjo wrote:
    I've recused myself from WW. I thought I was tremendously clever and I was instead a tremendous arse. Everyone else followed the rules. Going forward it's not an issue.


    Well actually no not everyone did.

    What do you mean not an issue going forward. I hope you will stay on and keep playing. It's important to learn from a mistake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    Pter wrote: »
    Well actually no not everyone did.

    What do you mean not an issue going forward. I hope you will stay on and keep playing. It's important to learn from a mistake.

    It's also important that there be consequences. My action was willful. Im not going anywhere but I'm at least sitting out a few rounds and any future participation will be at the mod teams discretion.

    There may have been others but they conducted themselves properly in so far as you can in that situation, from what I can see. It was not an attempt to subvert the game as to keep minds focussed on the game at hand, not the meta surrounding it. There's a difference.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Pter wrote: »
    It's not just rules though. Every game has a set of rules. It's an agreement to not bend or flirt with the borders of those rules. Not find a loophole and take it without question.

    We can come up with rules all day long and if the will is there to try and find ways around them, we might as well not have bothered.

    That’s what I mean. We all need to be on the same page.

    - If a game is to be non-anon, everyone plays under their own account.
    - People should not re-register on boards to circumvent these rules.
    - Everyone, even game mods, should stick to the rules.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Banjo wrote:
    It's also important that there be consequences. My action was willful. Im not going anywhere but I'm at least sitting out a few rounds and any future participation will be at the mod teams discretion.

    sullivlo wrote:
    - If a game is to be non-anon, everyone plays under their own account. - People should not re-register on boards to circumvent these rules. - Everyone, even game mods, should stick to the rules.


    Don't disagree but it would also be good to get some views from players and mods on what happens if there is a breach. It's very hard sometimes to kick a player and risk spoiling a game for a breach. How do you address it properly?

    Like tbh the two rules you mention are gimmes. Do they need to be spelled out? I don't think so anyway. Certainly you ask the mods if you are any way near a grey area or something that isn't explicitly stated. It's going to be very hard to come up with a comprehensive set of rules that can't be exploited if someone wants to find a way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    That's the big thing Sully, when we run games we all want our game to be successful. Nobody wants to be the mod who's game collapsed (as one of those mods I can confirm it sucks). The problem is that this sometimes get put ahead of the integrity of the forum and so we tolerate little slips and rule breaks. For this to work everyone has to want it to.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Pter wrote: »
    Don't disagree but it would also be good to get some views from players and mods on what happens if there is a breach. It's very hard sometimes to kick a player and risk spoiling a game for a breach. How do you address it properly?

    Like tbh the two rules you mention are gimmes. Do they need to be spelled out? I don't think so anyway. Certainly you ask the mods if you are any way near a grey area or something that isn't explicitly stated. It's going to be very hard to come up with a comprehensive set of rules that can't be exploited if someone wants to find a way.

    That is what I mean. I discovered the breach very early on in the game. By right, the player in question should have been banned, but the game would have been ruined.

    So there needs to be a plan in place for situations like this. How do we proceed?

    Do we operate a no tolerance policy? Is it graded, like is there a different level of rule breaks? Like does the deleted post from last night warrant a ban? Or just the rereg?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion :) I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Do we have a widespread problem with rule breaking? I don't think so.

    Do we have a problem with one user repeatedly breaking different rules. Yes, in my opinion.

    Like I have no problem with banjo playing again because he made a mistake and is obviously contrite. That counts.

    But Tigger willfully broke a rule AND willfully went against the spirit of the game and what the mods laid out. And that's just in this game. It's happened in loads of games. He can come on and say whatever he wants, but after a certain number of times, things like this can't be rationalised away and there needs to be consequences that actually hurt him. Not a self imposex exile but one from our community saying 'this isn't on. We aren't going to let you keep doing this'....eff off for a while, basically.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    Banjo wrote: »
    Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion :) I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.

    Does it matter? is it ok to break the rules if your intentions are good and you're pure of heart?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Banjo wrote: »
    Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion :) I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.

    The game was non-anon, as voted for by the participants. Reregistering on boards to evade the non-anon aspect of the game, for your own lols, is derailing IMO.

    I would never have signed up had he been playing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭tritium


    Banjo wrote: »
    I've recused myself from WW. I thought I was tremendously clever and I was instead a tremendous arse. Everyone else followed the rules. Going forward it's not an issue.

    Banjo, really hope you won’t step back because of this. Pissed as I may have been at the time I really do understand how this game gets to you and how some choices seem very logical at the time. I do hope you’ll stick around, and help us as a community to improve (both as players and how we do things)


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Banjo wrote:
    Again, in that specific case, was the intention to break the game or to enjoy the game? I don't think you could argue that he was trying to derail it, apart from the way he plays but that's a whole other discussion I see his intention as benign and it didn't specifically become a problem until I made it a problem as a deliberate attempt to pervert the course of the game. My intention was malign, to break the rules in my favour, however noble I thought that break was at the time.


    A vote was had to have a non anon game. The game was billed as such.

    If you create a pseudo anon account, you have a meta advantage for the game over the others in the game.

    It's not rationalisable. Even if it were it's not a decision for one player to go off and do on his own. He should be asking the mods who in turn will ask the rest of the players.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    sullivlo wrote: »
    The game was non-anon, as voted for by the participants. Reregistering on boards to evade the non-anon aspect of the game, for your own lols, is derailing IMO.

    I would never have signed up had he been playing.

    My sentiments exactly


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    sullivlo wrote: »
    That is what I mean. I discovered the breach very early on in the game. By right, the player in question should have been banned, but the game would have been ruined.

    So there needs to be a plan in place for situations like this. How do we proceed?

    Do we operate a no tolerance policy? Is it graded, like is there a different level of rule breaks? Like does the deleted post from last night warrant a ban? Or just the rereg?

    I deleted the posts for the good of the integrity of the game and pm d necro to tell him
    I am not the only person to have edited during the game tho am I ?

    The re reg thing, well I wouldn’t advise anyone else do it I didn’t think it’s matter I underestimated the vitriol, you live youblearn

    I have no intention of playing ww here again I said so to necro before Xmas that I’d like to playbhis game as my last and I didn’t feel that I could do so from my normal account

    Any ways just ban me from WW and be done with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    Pter wrote: »
    A vote was had to have a non anon game. The game was billed as such.

    If you create a pseudo anon account, you have a meta advantage for the game over the others in the game.

    It's not rationalisable. Even if it were it's not a decision for one player to go off and do on his own. He should be asking the mods who in turn will ask the rest of the players.

    This was my first non-anon game. Every other player had a meta advantage over me. (Ironically with one exception).

    Anyway, I'll leave it to the more experienced to discuss.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Pter wrote: »
    A vote was had to have a non anon game. The game was billed as such.

    If you create a pseudo anon account, you have a meta advantage for the game over the others in the game.

    It's not rationalisable. Even if it were it's not a decision for one player to go off and do on his own. He should be asking the mods who in turn will ask the rest of the players.

    You weren’t playing so indont getvthe butthurt
    I did ask the mods
    They approved it

    Word for word I said I won’t play in peters game cos he won’t wantvthat so I’ll rrwyite after yours necro


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Tigger wrote:
    You weren’t playing so indont getvthe butthurt I did ask the mods They approved it


    I have a stake in this forum whether I play each individual game or not.

    Do not try to devalue my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Banjo wrote:
    This was my first non-anon game. Every other player had a meta advantage over me. (Ironically with one exception).


    That can't be helped as you are new to the forum. I appreciate your contribution but I do feel the two situations we are discussing here (your breach and tiggers breaches) are different cases.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭tritium


    sullivlo wrote: »
    That’s what I mean. We all need to be on the same page.

    - If a game is to be non-anon, everyone plays under their own account.
    - People should not re-register on boards to circumvent these rules.
    - Everyone, even game mods, should stick to the rules.


    I think this kind of nails a major issue for me. I know some players may think that non-anon they don’t get a fair shout because of meta. I don’t honestly buy that as anything like the problem it’s positioned as but if it’s so worrying, frankly, stick to anon. There are plenty of regular players who if they’re playing I have to watch that my meta preconception doesn’t unfairly tag them as bad and put village at a disadvantage from my bias- hell every time I see cross on here I probably think wolf. Similarly I’d expect wolves to exploit that. Strangely enough those players still manage to play very successfully. Honestly, there isn’t a player here who hasn’t had one or two stinking bad games, no ones so amazing they get killed for the sake of it imho so just get on with the game


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    On the charges levied I plead guilty
    Now if it pleases the court can we move to the sentencing


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Tigger wrote: »
    You weren’t playing so indont getvthe butthurt
    I did ask the mods
    They approved it

    Word for word I said I won’t play in peters game cos he won’t wantvthat so I’ll rrwyite after yours necro

    You don’t have to play in a game to be invested in it. We have huge traffic on the forum from non-players watching the game, to the extent that they sometimes report posts if they think something is wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    tritium wrote: »
    I think this kind of nails a major issue for me. I know some players may think that non-anon they don’t get a fair shout because of meta. I don’t honestly buy that as anything like the problem it’s positioned as but if it’s so worrying, frankly, stick to anon. There are plenty of regular players who if they’re playing I have to watch that my meta preconception doesn’t unfairly tag them as bad and put village at a disadvantage from my bias- hell every time I see cross on here I probably think wolf. Similarly I’d expect wolves to exploit that. Strangely enough those players still manage to play very successfully. Honestly, there isn’t a player here who hasn’t had one or two stinking bad games, no ones so amazing they get killed for the sake of it imho so just get on with the game

    I’ve been first or second munched more times than anyone else last 4 non anon games iirc


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Tigger wrote:
    On the charges levied I plead guilty Now if it pleases the court can we move to the sentencing


    Great show of contrition there Tigger.

    If you are actually done here as you say just leave?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    sullivlo wrote: »
    You don’t have to play in a game to be invested in it. We have huge traffic on the forum from non-players watching the game, to the extent that they sometimes report posts if they think something is wrong.

    Your saying I’m famous?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Tigger wrote: »
    I’ve been first or second munched more times than anyone else last 4 non anon games iirc

    Because you **** around with every game that you play in!!!!!


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Tigger wrote: »
    Your saying I’m famous?

    Don’t flatter yourself


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Is a two month ban from playing ww an apropiate punishment?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    Is a two month ban from playing ww an apropiate punishment?


    No. He wouldn't be playing in the March game anyway.


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