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Is the indie scene over-saturated?

  • 16-02-2018 8:05am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 27,583 ✭✭✭✭


    Unpopular opinion: The indie scene is starting to really get oversaturated.

    FE being another example

    And I mean that on all platforms


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,136 ✭✭✭Lord Spence


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion: The indie scene is starting to really get oversaturated.

    FE being another example

    And I mean that on all platforms

    Agreed!


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,444 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    AAA games are dying off. I don't think there are as many as there used to be. Making games has become more and more expensive.

    Indies have filled the void (and we're all the better for it).

    I think this has the bones of an interesting discussion, so I'll split it away from the News thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    I think there's a pendulum swinging wildly away there, between ridiculous, overblown excess and cheap "could have been released 20 years ago with zero compromise" lo-fi indie stuff. The rendering power of the hardware and storage capacity of media have accelerated beyond our ability to create content that uses this power in an efficient manner. Costs spiral, making contemporary games something that an aspiring programmer or team simply can't achieve. That causes a reactionary movement where people go back to basics, gameplay over graphics, but in an almost militant way. And while that was exciting at the outset, it's getting a bit stale and samey, because a lot of the gameplay possibilities were milked to death the first time around when these "basics" were the cutting edge.

    Basically, video gaming is at the "Prog vs Punk" phase of it's development, specifically the tail end where anyone with a flying piano or a bass with a single string made of actual string could get a recording contract, with very little in between.

    Which is great, because we can look forward to all sorts of weird fusions of these opposed ideals generating some truly innovative content once the initial dust settles. And a whole lot of ****e, but sure that's prevalent in any creative medium.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,444 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    The cream always rises to the top.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    While I miss THQ, Sega & others releasing mid tier AAA games like Binary Domain or Red Faction I think indies offer good value in comparison
    But I do think AAA releases are losing their lustre as so few are new IP's or not mainly disappointing like Ubisoft this gen. I absolutely fu*king hate games as a service or lootbox focused games. I can genuinely say I haven't bought a sports game in 18 months as I get bored with them quicker now as the year on year gameplay innovation is secondary.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    It sure does. And don't just take it from me. The Wildman, he knows :

    Ironically, the quality of the recording is not what you'd call the cream of the crop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,128 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    I've never been able to get into or credit indie games in general. As a PC gamer obviously this genre came to my attention quicker then consoles.

    I do see and appreciate some of them can be good or well rated, but it's not something that's ever peaked my interest. Bought a few over the years and they never got more then a few minutes of my attention.

    It's probably a more overarching discussion about how content is being consumed, by us. You see it across TV and Movies and Music as it has broken apart over the years where us as the consumer, consume what we want and when, as opposed to just accepting what is put before us.

    The indie genre is saturated, of course. It's a way for a quick buck, develop a game at low cost and cut out multiple middle men to get your content out to consumers and hope you hit a win. Or someone that has had a game or idea that could never convince publishers etc. So there will be good ones by word of mouth, as there will be bad ones, as there will be ones that will just never receive any spotlight.

    I think part of the models whereby you are effectively paying to beta test or alpha test, is something many people feel uncomfortable and I know for me was another easy stick to beat Indie developement with. A real "hold on till I pay for your broken game to help you fix it". I know they tend to be the more grand scale of the genre, but they are still in the genre imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,764 ✭✭✭✭TitianGerm


    Cuphead and Ori and the Blind Forest are some of my favourite games ever.

    Indies are great when you just don't want to be swamped in another massive AAA game.

    I don't buy that many of them but if one catches my eye it's nice getting something enjoyable for €20 or less.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    I don't think they are over saturated per se, I just think they have never had more attention than they are getting today and the reporting on them in turn as been more than it ever has, so it may seem like that. When AAA games cost as much as they do now, it's still great to see small developers put out great games with a fraction of a budget, and in many instances more interesting games than their counterparts. I'd gladly have a wider choice of indies if it produces gems like Golf Story, Celeste and Cuphead etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    When you see stats like this I think it's hard to disagree that the games market in general, mainly driven by indie or lower than-AAA tier games, is becoming increasingly saturated at the very least.

    https://twitter.com/ZhugeEX/status/906230432852824065

    Whether that's a bad thing or not kind of depends on what perspective you're looking at. The stats are from Steam obviously but with the Switch being a more viable target for indies than previous consoles from Nintendo we seem to be seeing a lot more of these titles make the jump to tap into the new market.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    I think there is a large percentage of indie games that are just rubbish or don't look appealing. However, there are some really good indie games released each year and they are often better than many of the so called AAA games.

    I found it difficult to play/get into indie games on my ps4 and pc, but as soon as i bought the Switch, indie games suddenly become much more appealing to the system and really work on portable mode. I don't think indie games capture the same feeling on a 2k/4k monitor or a 55" tv.

    some excellent examples of indie games include, some of these are on the Switch:

    both Steamworld Digs
    Golf Story
    Stardew Valley
    Fez
    Super Meat Boy
    Axiom Verge
    Celeste
    Owlboy
    Inside
    Journey
    Bastion
    The Witness
    Firewatch
    Resogun
    Nex Machina


  • Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭nairy hipples


    Gonzo wrote: »
    I think there is a large percentage of indie games that are just rubbish or don't look appealing. However, there are some really good indie games released each year and they are often better than many of the so called AAA games.

    I found it difficult to play/get into indie games on my ps4 and pc, but as soon as i bought the Switch, indie games suddenly become much more appealing to the system and really work on portable mode. I don't think indie games capture the same feeling on a 2k/4k monitor or a 55" tv.

    some excellent examples of indie games include, some of these are on the Switch:

    both Steamworld Digs
    Golf Story
    Stardew Valley
    Fez
    Super Meat Boy
    Axiom Verge
    Celeste
    Owlboy
    Inside
    Journey
    Bastion
    The Witness
    Firewatch
    Resogun
    Nex Machina

    Add Overcooked to that list! One of my most played games on Switch, never had as much fun with a group of people!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,324 ✭✭✭chrislad


    I think the hardware required to make a decent game is more widely available, as technical knowledge has grown exponentially, and people like games, so yeah, there's a massive surge. However, as said earlier, the cream does rise to the top. As long as companies control this, by either manually curating content, or designing their system to allow the games that get the best reviews/playtimes/whatever to gain provenience, we should be fine.

    I remember when the Apple App Store launched. I used to be able to check for new apps daily, where now, I'm literally just a top 50 guy, or if I see an article somewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,764 ✭✭✭✭TitianGerm


    Gonzo wrote: »
    I think there is a large percentage of indie games that are just rubbish or don't look appealing. However, there are some really good indie games released each year and they are often better than many of the so called AAA games.

    I found it difficult to play/get into indie games on my ps4 and pc, but as soon as i bought the Switch, indie games suddenly become much more appealing to the system and really work on portable mode. I don't think indie games capture the same feeling on a 2k/4k monitor or a 55" tv.

    some excellent examples of indie games include, some of these are on the Switch:

    both Steamworld Digs
    Golf Story
    Stardew Valley
    Fez
    Super Meat Boy
    Axiom Verge
    Celeste
    Owlboy
    Inside
    Journey
    Bastion
    The Witness
    Firewatch
    Resogun
    Nex Machina

    No Ori or Cuphead?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    TitianGerm wrote:
    No Ori or Cuphead?

    On switch? Sadly no


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    TitianGerm wrote: »
    No Ori or Cuphead?

    forgot about those, I have yet to buy/play those titles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,764 ✭✭✭✭TitianGerm


    ERG89 wrote: »
    On switch? Sadly no

    I know, but Gonzo didn't put them in his list for Indies worth playing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,764 ✭✭✭✭TitianGerm


    Gonzo wrote: »
    forgot about those, I have yet to buy/play those titles.

    Two excellent games. And an Ori sequel due this year which will be a day one purchase for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭megaten


    In terms of people making a living? maybe. As a consumer though I wouldn't say so. Only if your only way of finding out about game is trawling through Steams new releases section. Also as someone that almost solely plays RPG's I don't feel like theres that that many indie RPG's


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    I think so. There are some magnificent indie games out there but there is also a lot of utter garbage.

    There are WAY more bad ones than good ones but I feel, for now, that Nintendo are doing a decent job of controlling the quality in their catalog.

    Another problem you have with indie games is that corruption is rampant in the community and the industry. So you'll have media outlets, with large readership, giving positive publicity to games that were created by friends of the journalists or giving glowing reviews to games that align with their political outlook.

    Then you've just got the really lazy efforts that somehow make it onto the eshop (thinking about the Wii and Wii U days) despite being obviously crap.

    I'd like to see Nintendo introduce a proper vetting program that goes some way towards keeping garbage away from the e-shop. I suppose money will be the deciding factor though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion: The indie scene is starting to really get oversaturated.

    FE being another example

    And I mean that on all platforms

    Are you using Indie games as a "catch all" for 16-bit pixel art shovelware sh!te and/or walking simulators?

    If so, I agree.

    But I have loved some indie games recently that did not fit that description specifically, so it's a No from me if you're talking about "all indie games"

    Hellbalde was indie. Journey was indie. Hotline Miami was indie. Fez was indie.

    Indie games can be great when they are done well. Pity lashing together any old 16-bit cr@p and saying "that'll do for 7.99" is now what a lot of crowds are doing


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,078 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    There's far more **** films than great ones, particularly since the rise of independent film in the early 80s/90s and advent of home video. There's an overwhelming amount of bad books compared to the good ones, and that's never been more pronounced than with the increased prominence of ebooks and self-publishing. Same with podcasts, paintings, whatever. It's a result of democratisation - the easier it is to create and publish / release something, the more junk that's going to get out there.

    With games, it's perhaps compounded somewhat by the medium's deep integration with digital distribution: while there's always been a challenge in getting a film into cinemas or a film festival (or, in gaming, on to retail shelves), in the last 10 years it's become very easy to release a game to a whole lot of people. This has only become more pronounced with the likes of Steam's increasingly hands-off approach to curation, although a more curatorial spirit can be seen somewhere like the homepage of itch.io. (not that curation is always a good thing - look at the recent refusal by GOG to allow the widely acclaimed Opus Magnum on their platform, thankfully something they later backtracked on).

    So yes, there's a lot of crap, and there's definite problems for developers who are trying to get the message out. Sometimes I feel whether I hear about a game is down to whether Twitter's algorithm just luckily happened to show me a recommendation from a game-maker or writer I like - I only randomly stumbled across Genesis Noir a day or two before its Kickstarter campaign ended, even though it looks exactly like my kind of thing.

    This is easily countered by indie gaming being in very rude health creatively as a result of the very same processes that have led it to being overpopulated, competitive and overwhelming. As someone who often prefers experimental stuff these days, I'm thrilled that developers are out there making art games like Oikospiel, The Norwood Suite, Anatomy, Samorost 3, Opus Magnum, The Beginner's Guide, Kentucky Route Zero, Engare, Naissancee, Gorogoa etc... These, alongside the bigger name indie gems & masterpieces, are the reason why the oversaturation has to be accepted: because the more people there are making games, the more likely there's going to be interesting, weird, ambitious, or just straight up great ones.

    No matter what kind of games you're into, there's almost certainly interesting independent games worth looking into (well, maybe not licenced sports games ;)). If it takes 50 underwhelming pixel art platformers for every Celeste, that's a price I guess we have to pay. Thankfully we can choose to only play the good ones.

    I wouldn't envy being a developer trying to make a splash in the indie scene, but hopefully most talented ones can find at least a niche to sustain them - Cosmo D is unlikely to ever be a big name like Jon Blow, but one can only hope he finds an audience who can sustain his work. As a player, though, I guess the key thing is to try and establish one's own discovery networks - following interesting developers & critics on social media, or checking a wider range of platforms than just the Nintendo eShop or Steam frontpages etc... It isn't always easy - personally never have quite found somewhere to give me the reliable fix Kill Screen used to provide before the owner went and ****ed that up. But even if I miss some stuff, there's always tonnes of recommendations out there, and plenty of great games :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,583 ✭✭✭✭T. Hanks


    I must have a magic account as somehow I started a thread :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,444 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    I split it from the news thread in the Nintendo forum and it grew legs. :)


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