General Rugby Discussion II

Former Former · 07-11-2017 9:45am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No. But the point you made is constantly made, lazily, in an attempt to dismiss it. Or rather to dismiss accusations of it. Exactly what happened to Eniola Aluko or Drew Spence and exactly what happened recently with UR.

I have quite literally no idea who these people are.

The Ultimate Rugby thing was done to death. Some people saw it as racist. I guess that's my point.

awec · 07-11-2017 9:50am

Former Former wrote: »

Rodney made his (brief) debut in Argentina in a game that few people saw and even fewer remember.

And after his debut, it was very, very, obvious that he wouldn't be keeping any home-grown players out of the team.

But likewise, Niyi Adeolokun got his cap last year and no-one breathed a negative word about it, it was a good news story all round.

As you say, it's modern day outrage. If people scream "racism", "sexism" or whatever, they feel better about themselves, and anyone who questions it is labelled an apologist/defender/part of the problem.

Hasn’t Adeilokun been in Ireland most of his life? Not really the same thing.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 9:51am

Former Former wrote: »

I have quite literally no idea who these people are.

The Ultimate Rugby thing was done to death. Some people saw it as racist. I guess that's my point.

Well if you don't know who they are then it would probably explain why you take the stance you do towards the racism. Maybe its much more common and embedded in sports culture than you realise.

The UR thing, similar to the Aluko issue, was "banter" that some people saw as racism. If that's your point then you're saying that people who thought it was racist are only doing it to feel better about themselves. I think maybe you don't quite appreciate the problem if that's what you believe.

Former Former · 07-11-2017 9:54am

awec wrote: »

Hasn’t Adeilokun been in Ireland most of his life? Not really the same thing.

No, but if it's being claimed that people are juding Aki differently from Stander and Payne because of his skin colour, then it's at least worth mentioning.

Former Former · 07-11-2017 9:57am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well if you don't know who they are then it would probably explain why you take the stance you do towards the racism. Maybe its much more common and embedded in sports culture than you realise.

I googled them. No, I wasn't aware of any of this. But then, I'm not aware of anything to do with women's soccer in England.

Me not knowing who they are is probably explained by the fact that I don't roam the internet looking for things to be outraged about.

You must be the other guy.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 9:59am

Former Former wrote: »

I googled them. No, I wasn't aware of any of this. But then, I'm not aware of anything to do with women's soccer in England.

Me not knowing who they are is probably explained by the fact that I don't roam the internet looking for things to be outraged about.

You must be the other guy.

It was a major story in English papers, it was covered on major news channels, including on Irish news, and she spoke at length in parliament. You just missed it.

But now that you're aware of it, you should keep it in mind when dismissing potential cases of racism out of hand as just people looking to feel better about themselves.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 10:00am

Former Former wrote: »

No, but if it's being claimed that people are juding Aki differently from Stander and Payne because of his skin colour, then it's at least worth mentioning.

Why?

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 10:02am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just to be clear, it wasn't mentioned ONCE in the discussion. At no point did any of them suggest that Francis' opinion was altered by Aki's heritage.

You'd have to be pretty obsessed with race to watch that show in isolation and decide any of these people are inherently racist.

To be clear I wasn't actually talking specifically about the broadcast. I haven't listened to it and am unlikely to. I wouldn't be keen on the, eh, dulcet tones of our Franno.

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 10:05am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

....when dismissing potential cases of racism out of hand as just people looking to feel better about themselves.

I really don't think FF (or myself) is actually doing this though. You can be completely aware of and opposed to racism while also calling out BS claims of racism. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Buer · 07-11-2017 10:06am

molloyjh wrote: »

I really don't think FF (or myself) is actually doing this though. You can be completely aware of and opposed to racism while also calling out BS claims of racism. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Bingo. Sure some of my best friends are racist.

Wait...

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 10:08am

molloyjh wrote: »

I really don't think FF (or myself) is actually doing this though. You can be completely aware of and opposed to racism while also calling out BS claims of racism. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I don't think you are.

Former Former wrote: »

If people scream "racism", "sexism" or whatever, they feel better about themselves, and anyone who questions it is labelled an apologist/defender/part of the problem.

Erik Shin · 07-11-2017 10:34am

Are we all racists now Ted?

Interested Observer · 07-11-2017 11:00am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It was a major story in English papers, it was covered on major news channels, including on Irish news, and she spoke at length in parliament. You just missed it.

But now that you're aware of it, you should keep it in mind when dismissing potential cases of racism out of hand as just people looking to feel better about themselves.

I'm surprised anyone with a passing interest in sports news in this part of the world hasn't heard of Aluko at this stage.

Yeah_Right · 07-11-2017 11:20am

A lot people talk rugby with me probably because I'm the only kiwi they know and they think rugby is the default small talk for New Zealanders.

Which I find very disrespectful. We also like discussing sheep.

I've definitely noticed a lot more people commenting on foreign players with this squad compared to when Stander, Payne, Ah You, Bent etc were named. Now that might be because there has been more coverage on the issue this time than in previous years so therefore there are more people talking about it.

I felt Francis came across as quite xenophobic. Saying that the only people who should be playing for Ireland are those that grew up here, played mini rugby here etc. It came across as "no immigrants!" It was interesting that he had no issue with granny rule players. I personally think that someone who moves his family to Ireland to live and work for 3 plus years has more of a connection than someone who has never set foot in the country but had one grandparent born here.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 11:25am

Yeah_Right wrote: »

A lot people talk rugby with me probably because I'm the only kiwi they know and they think rugby is the default small talk for New Zealanders. Which I find very disrespectful. We also like discussing sheep.

I've definitely noticed a lot more people commenting on foreign players with this squad compared to when Stander, Payne, Ah You, Bent etc were named. Now that might be because there has been more coverage on the issue this time than in previous years so therefore there are more people talking about it.

I felt Francis came across as quite xenophobic. Saying that the only people who should be playing for Ireland are those that grew up here, played mini rugby here etc. It came across as "no immigrants!" It was interesting that he had no issue with granny rule players. I personally think that someone who moves his family to Ireland to live and work for 3 plus years has more of a connection than someone who has never set foot in the country but had one grandparent born here.

The most frustrating part of that show, for me, and I think it's a failing of the host, is that Francis wasn't challenged to tell us at what point he thinks its good enough.

I'm not really sure if he's saying that he's alright with the 5 years. Maybe I missed the part where he said exactly what he's looking for.

I'd be happier if he was pressed for something we could hold him to. At least if he said 5 years we'd have an easy enough way to dismiss his bleating in the near future.

thomond2006 · 07-11-2017 11:26am

#Fake Claire Byrne and her UNTRUSTWORTHY friends ganged up on my friend Neil Francis, a great guy! They should be fired! SOON!

Buer · 07-11-2017 11:43am

Yeah_Right wrote: »

It was interesting that he had no issue with granny rule players. I personally think that someone who moves his family to Ireland to live and work for 3 plus years has more of a connection than someone who has never set foot in the country but had one grandparent born here.

I've always had far more of a problem with the likes of Isaac Boss, Dion O'Cuinneagain, Tom Court and Michael Bent coming here and getting capped almost automatically. They contributed nothing to Irish rugby before then and were rewarded for a quirk of lineage.

All of the above (aside from Bent who is still playing) left Ireland once they retired or had a significant offer elsewhere (although Boss has since returned). Don't get me wrong, you can't blame them for using the system to their advantage to make a living but I don't agree with that system at all.

awec · 07-11-2017 11:58am

To be honest I think a lot of the discussion is just because it's yet another imported player and people are reaching breaking point with the IRFUs never ending attempts to turn the national side into a glorified club team, while at the same time bleating on with their "protecting Irish rugby" stuff. Aki just happens to be the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

The IRFU make a mockery of themselves with their excessive exploitation of these project player rules. We must be one of the worst unions in the world at it.

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 12:06pm

awec wrote: »

To be honest I think a lot of the discussion is just because it's yet another imported player and people are reaching breaking point with the IRFUs never ending attempts to turn the national side into a glorified club team, while at the same time bleating on with their "protecting Irish rugby" stuff. Aki just happens to be the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

The IRFU make a mockery of themselves with their excessive exploitation of these project player rules. We must be one of the worst unions in the world at it.

Um, absolute worst case scenario we could have 3 foreign players in a 23 at one time. Stander, Aki and Payne. I'm starting to get a bit wary of it myself, but it isn't the mockery you're making it out to be.

awec · 07-11-2017 12:08pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Um, absolute worst case scenario we could have 3 foreign players in a 23 at one time. Stander, Aki and Payne. I'm starting to get a bit wary of it myself, but it isn't the mockery you're making it out to be.

Can you name a union who exploit these rules more than Ireland?

We have plenty of project players but we'll only pick a few of them at a time isn't really much of a defense. The IRFU actively encourage the provinces to sign non-granny rule players who can play for Ireland eventually.

irishbucsfan · 07-11-2017 12:15pm

awec wrote: »

Can you name a union who exploit these rules more than Ireland?

We have plenty of project players but we'll only pick a few of them at a time isn't really much of a defense. The IRFU actively encourage the provinces to sign non-granny rule players who can play for Ireland eventually.

Scotland are worse than us in that they employ someone specifically to find players like this.

But we're all as bad as each other in Europe. Wales are probably the only ones who aren't at it as much as the rest of us (although Hadleigh Parkes is in this squad). Ireland, Scotland, England, France and Italy all doing it. Because it makes sense to do it if you're a pure pragmatist.

Buer · 07-11-2017 12:17pm

awec wrote: »

The IRFU make a mockery of themselves with their excessive exploitation of these project player rules. We must be one of the worst unions in the world at it.

I wouldn't think so, particularly. If you look at Australia, they've a rake of players who were born elsewhere but moved to Australia when they were growing up. They also have a handful of guys Speight, Koroibete and Timani who all moved to Australia as adults in their current squad. They're massively reliant on players born elsewhere. I'd say their current squad would have over a dozen.

Then you've got the likes of Scotland and Italy who continually recruit players with a mind to capping them the same as ourselves and possibly have a higher conversion rate. England have guys like Solomona and Rokoduguni in their current squad despite having massive playing resources that we could only dream of.

We have two project players in our current squad. No different to anyone else, in reality. Quite decent, really when you think about it. Most nations actively cap players under the project rule and they're right to do so.

[Deleted User] · 07-11-2017 12:18pm

Not to stir up a fuss but haven't the All Blacks been doing this for donkey's years just starting the 'projects' off at a much younger age?

I don't think we stand out internationally at all. Let's not forget that two of our project players were brought on the Lions tour along with Te'o.

I agree with awec that there is a 'straw that broke the camel' aspect with Aki. I also think in general Ireland have a lot more depth so whilst in the past the project players would have filled a gap that otherwise would have required some serious barrel dredging but now they are displacing talented Irish players.

Yeah_Right · 07-11-2017 12:18pm

awec wrote: »

Can you name a union who exploit these rules more than Ireland?

We have plenty of project players but we'll only pick a few of them at a time isn't really much of a defense. The IRFU actively encourage the provinces to sign non-granny rule players who can play for Ireland eventually.

I'd say Scotland, Italy, France and Australia exploit it as much if not more than Ireland. I think Wales and England have probably been as bad in the recent past as well.

That's off the top of my head with no research.

Buer · 07-11-2017 12:23pm

awec wrote: »

Can you name a union who exploit these rules more than Ireland?

We have plenty of project players but we'll only pick a few of them at a time isn't really much of a defense. The IRFU actively encourage the provinces to sign non-granny rule players who can play for Ireland eventually.

Italy immediately springs to mind. I don't have vast knowledge of Italian rugby and they only have two professional teams yet have guys like McKinley, Steyn, Heyward and Dean Budd in their current squad.

If you look at the Zebre and Treviso squads they have about 10 project players between them (plus a rake more foreign players aside).

awec · 07-11-2017 12:26pm

Ludik, Herbst, Payne, JGP, Strauss, Bleyendaal, Aki, Ah You, Roux, Stander, Diack, Lowe.

They're just the ones I can remember off the top of my head, all of which have been capped or will eventually be capped (presuming Lowe will be). The fact we might only pick 2 or 3 at a time doesn't really defend this.

The project system is a joke. The IRFU actively exploit it. People are fed up with it. The IRFU should shut up with their "protecting Irish rugby" stuff while actively seeking project player signings, they look like idiots. Thankfully the 5 year rule should have an impact here, but it is sad that it took World Rugby to act to try and sort out this charade.

I have always hated this project player nonsense. At the start it was something you could live with as there were only 1 or 2, but since the IRFU have become obsessed with increasing the national team player numbers by actively encouraging provinces to sign non-capped internationals that they can convert it has become much harder to swallow. I do not want Aki playing for Ireland. Enough is enough.

Buer · 07-11-2017 12:28pm

awec wrote: »

The project system is a joke. The IRFU actively exploit it. .

They'd be idiots not to and so do most of the other unions. Stop blaming the IRFU for taking advantage of a straightforward opportunity especially when other unions are doing the exact same thing. The system is the issue.

molloyjh · 07-11-2017 12:29pm

awec wrote: »

Can you name a union who exploit these rules more than Ireland?

We have plenty of project players but we'll only pick a few of them at a time isn't really much of a defense. The IRFU actively encourage the provinces to sign non-granny rule players who can play for Ireland eventually.

I suggest you take a look at the Italians or even the French practices at dodging the project thing altogether by bringing guys in during their school years etc. We're really not that bad at this stuff at all. It just seems like it because we are so much more familiar with the Irish teams. How many guys in France would fall into the definition of "project player"? For example, Agen have 20 non-French born players in their squad. How many of those are non-capped players? You don't know do you? So how can you compare us to them?

awec · 07-11-2017 12:30pm

Buer wrote: »

They'd be idiots not to and so do most of the other unions. Stop blaming the IRFU for taking advantage of a straightforward opportunity especially when other unions are doing the exact same thing. The system is the issue.

I don't give a stuff about other unions.

I will 100% blame the IRFU for watering down the Irish national team with foreign imports. It's nobody elses fault but theirs.

"Protecting Irish Rugby".

Buer · 07-11-2017 12:32pm

awec wrote: »

Ludik, Herbst, Payne, JGP, Strauss, Bleyendaal, Aki, Ah You, Roux, Stander, Diack, Lowe.

They're just the ones I can remember off the top of my head, all of which have been capped or will eventually be capped (presuming Lowe will be). The fact we might only pick 2 or 3 at a time doesn't really defend this.

If you're picking guys who might potentially be capped one day or aren't qualified yet we're getting into fantasy stuff. Edinburgh and Glasgow have about 14 lads between them who fit that category. That doesn't include guys like Cornell du Preez or WP Nel who are actually capped.

Not saying it's right but it's clearly the way many unions go.

General Rugby Discussion II

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