Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Making Confirmation and regular attendance at Mass

24567…13

Comments

  • #32
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    Pete Tong wrote: »
    They don't want their kids to miss out on the party.
    They also don't want their kids to stand out or be different.
    (what VinLieger above said)

    For them, it's just a party with a boring Church bit at the beginning.

    May I ask you for your personal opinion BellaBella - would you have a problem with religion being removed from schools? - you could still do this stuff in your own time.

    As I've said, I think Sunday Schools probably make more sense nowadays.


  • #33
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    I was actually querying the posters who implied that children 'lose out' when it comes to school places going forward. I was wondering if that actually happens, and do secondary schools discriminate against kids who haven't received their First Communion or Confirmation.

    No they don't, they don't even ask.


  • #34
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    A further twist is that Canon Law states that, for a Catholic Church wedding you need to make you confirmation first.


  • #35
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Do they though? I've known loads of kids in Catholic schools who didn't do them and no one cared or teased them.

    Likewise. They were always made to feel welcome at the Church on the day if they wanted to witness their friends taking part in the ceremony and back at the party in the school. I would hate to think that any children would be nasty or unpleasant towards a child not making their Communion or Confirmation, or that teachers would allow this.


  • #36
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    Kace Prehistoric Raceway wrote: »
    A further twist is that Canon Law states that, for a Catholic Church wedding you need to make you confirmation first.

    But I presume if you haven't made your Confirmation you would be unlikely to want a Catholic Church wedding.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I don't understand why the priest wants to see the parents at Mass. They're not the ones making their confirmation.


  • #38
    Pete Tong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭Pete Tong


    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    As I've said, I think Sunday Schools probably make more sense nowadays.

    Thanks.
    In my opinion, that is the answer. With a Sunday School system and no religion in schools you'd see a sudden drop in bouncy castle Catholics.


  • #39
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    seamus wrote: »
    I don't understand why the priest wants to see the parents at Mass. They're not the ones making their confirmation.

    He wants to see the parents bringing the children to Mass.


  • #40
    BeardySi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭BeardySi


    Pete Tong wrote: »
    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    As I've said, I think Sunday Schools probably make more sense nowadays.

    Thanks.
    In my opinion, that is the answer. With a Sunday School system and no religion in schools you'd see a sudden drop in bouncy castle Catholics.

    Best phrase ever....


  • #41
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,966 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Kace Prehistoric Raceway wrote: »
    A further twist is that Canon Law states that, for a Catholic Church wedding you need to make you confirmation first.

    What if you can't fit into the suit anymore?


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Odhinn wrote: »
    What if you can't fit into the suit anymore?

    Judging by what Mrs. Sof's nephews got in cards for theirs, a confirmation before a wedding would be a handy way to pay off the wedding band.

    To be honest, priests (both Catholic and Presbyterian, not sure 100% about the other flavours of Protestant) have been saying this for ages around here.


  • #43
    wnolan1992
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭wnolan1992


    Sorry, going to reply to three vastly different points at once here:
    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    Genuine question, not being sarcastic, but do you actually know of any child who's been penalised for not making their Communion or Confirmation?

    A fair question, don't know why people were jumping down your throat a bit about it. No, I know of no such situation, nor do I think it's a widespread thing. My original post (which was what was originally replied to for those who don't want to read back) was mostly just me kidding around about parents who aren't believers putting their kids in religious education even though they have no faith themselves.

    However, I do subscribe to the idea that kids who don't partake in Communion and Confirmation prep in schools miss out, and I'll go into that more below.
    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    Most practising Catholics I know really dislike the way sacraments have become so meaningless and would prefer that only genuine Catholics took part in them.

    I think the Church is in a difficult position. If they put their foot down and refused to baptise, Confirm or allow making of Holy Communion for children from non practising families they would be attacked. If they allow it they're accused of hypocrisy.

    There's a very, very simple solution to keep everyone happy. Remove religious education (with a specific ethos, not actual education about religions) from schools.

    Parents can then opt IN to extra religious classes (say after school hours have finished or in a Sunday School type scenario where while the parents are at Mass, the kids are in the local community centre doing Communion and Confirmation prep).

    I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    Do they though? I've known loads of kids in Catholic schools who didn't do them and no one cared or teased them.

    OK, I'll be drawing on my own experiences here, so bear in mind that these are anecdotal and may not be representative of wider trends.

    So, I'm visually impaired. Legally blind. When I received special resource hours during the week. Basically, at certain times I'd just head off to a separate room with a teacher to get one-on-one tuition. Similarly, in my secondary school, first years do every subject. Because of my limited vision, it was decided that I couldn't do subjects like Metalwork or Woodwork. I would break off from my class at these times to go with a resource teacher. And during my 5 years in secondary education, I spent the majority of my PE classes alone in the back room of the gym where there were some machines (rowing machine, treadmill, bike, elliptical, weights, etc).

    All of that is to say, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to being separated out from the main class.

    And it, f*cking, sucks.

    Do not misunderstand me. I am incredibly grateful I got those hours. I am. But it f*cking sucks to be the only one doing something in an environment where basically everything revolves around everyone doing everything at the same time. You come back to your class an hour later, and something has happened that they're all laughing at and you have to hear about second hand. They've all had a collective experience which you couldn't share in.

    So yeah, I was never teased because, luckily, pretty much everyone in both my primary school and secondary school classes were decent human beings, and I don't think the argument here should be that kids who opt out of religious education would be teased. The argument here is that they are being singled out and separated.

    Make it an extra curricular activity, done outside of school. Then it's no different to kids who play GAA or learn music outside of school.


  • #44
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    wnolan1992 wrote: »
    Sorry, going to reply to three vastly different points at once here:



    A fair question, don't know why people were jumping down your throat a bit about it. No, I know of no such situation, nor do I think it's a widespread thing. My original post (which was what was originally replied to for those who don't want to read back) was mostly just me kidding around about parents who aren't believers putting their kids in religious education even though they have no faith themselves.

    However, I do subscribe to the idea that kids who don't partake in Communion and Confirmation prep in schools miss out, and I'll go into that more below.



    There's a very, very simple solution to keep everyone happy. Remove religious education (with a specific ethos, not actual education about religions) from schools.

    Parents can then opt IN to extra religious classes (say after school hours have finished or in a Sunday School type scenario where while the parents are at Mass, the kids are in the local community centre doing Communion and Confirmation prep).

    I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.



    OK, I'll be drawing on my own experiences here, so bear in mind that these are anecdotal and may not be representative of wider trends.

    So, I'm visually impaired. Legally blind. When I received special resource hours during the week. Basically, at certain times I'd just head off to a separate room with a teacher to get one-on-one tuition. Similarly, in my secondary school, first years do every subject. Because of my limited vision, it was decided that I couldn't do subjects like Metalwork or Woodwork. I would break off from my class at these times to go with a resource teacher. And during my 5 years in secondary education, I spent the majority of my PE classes alone in the back room of the gym where there were some machines (rowing machine, treadmill, bike, elliptical, weights, etc).

    All of that is to say, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to being separated out from the main class.

    And it, f*cking, sucks.

    Do not misunderstand me. I am incredibly grateful I got those hours. I am. But it f*cking sucks to be the only one doing something in an environment where basically everything revolves around everyone doing everything at the same time. You come back to your class an hour later, and something has happened that they're all laughing at and you have to hear about second hand. They've all had a collective experience which you couldn't share in.

    So yeah, I was never teased because, luckily, pretty much everyone in both my primary school and secondary school classes were decent human beings, and I don't think the argument here should be that kids who opt out of religious education would be teased. The argument here is that they are being singled out and separated.

    Make it an extra curricular activity, done outside of school. Then it's no different to kids who play GAA or learn music outside of school.

    I can see why that was difficult for you. I suppose the difference with a religious scenario is that an awful lot of the children don't come from families who practise their Catholicism so if those parents stopped opting in to ceremonies that they don't believe in, there would be at least a 50:50 split between those being prepared for Confirmation and those doing something else during that time.


  • #45
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,966 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    wnolan1992 wrote: »
    ................

    I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.



    l.

    That sums it up. Tick the boxes, do the minimum, throw up murder if they want to change the ethos of the school, follow the poxy herd. It sickens me about this country. They should adopt the German method - if you tick the box, you pay money and get the church services. If you don't, you don't. That would stop this neverending cycle of hypocrisy quick enough.


  • #46
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,118 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    piplip87 wrote: »
    Yes but how many if the Children are only Catholic because of the schools admission policy ?

    I'm sure some kids are but I'm also sure more kids are baptised because people feel pressure from their family to do so.

    It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of figures. How many are because parents are devout catholics. How many are because of peer pressure. How many because of schooling etc...


  • #47
    wnolan1992
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭wnolan1992


    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    I can see why that was difficult for you. I suppose the difference with a religious scenario is that an awful lot of the children don't come from families who practise their Catholicism so if those parents stopped opting in to ceremonies that they don't believe in, there would be at least a 50:50 split between those being prepared for Confirmation and those doing something else during that time.

    So then you either have the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education getting a superior education to their classmates by spending that prep time actually learning something, or you the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education doing pointless busy work during that time effectively wasting their school hours.

    Neither of those are particularly palatable options.


  • #48
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,414 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    wnolan1992 wrote: »
    TBH, I think your wife is right, as sad and all as that is.

    Just be sure to constantly tell him it's all bollox and you're literally just ticking a box so he can claim to be Catholic if his school requires it, and he should be grand.

    Well I want him to find his own way. If he chooses to believe in it that's his prerogative.
    For me the realization that God obviously didn't exist was the day Jamie Bulger died and the papers ran with the the picture of those boys holding his hand as they led him away. I think I was only 18 or something at the time. Some day I hope those two pricks get what's coming for them instead of them leading a happy life till they get old and die. Sometimes I envy those who believe these guys will burn alive in hell forever but to me that's not going to happen.


  • #49
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    wnolan1992 wrote: »
    So then you either have the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education getting a superior education to their classmates by spending that prep time actually learning something, or you the 50% of the class that has opted out of religious education doing pointless busy work during that time effectively wasting their school hours.

    Neither of those are particularly palatable options.

    Not really. They could work on group projects and present them to the other half of the class on a specified day; so they learn something and then pass what they've learnt on to the rest of the class. So maybe one teacher of that particular year could do the Communion or Confirmation preparation and the other(s) could work with the rest of the group.

    I'm sure there's lots of other options as well.

    But as I've already said, Sunday School is becoming a strong likelihood.


  • #50
    Dozyart
    Registered Users Posts: 765 ✭✭✭Dozyart


    Had to get my kids baptised etc to get into local schools,but the oldest is up for confirmation this year and we have left it up to her now,she doesnt believe in god and we said we would respect whatever decision she makes.....so.....she made a business decision to do it for the money and never go back near a church were possible,pretty much what everyone does anyway


  • #51
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    wnolan1992 wrote: »
    .

    I genuinely believe people who so ardently oppose removing religious doctrines from schools only do so because they are too lazy to go to the effort themselves. They want their kid to be Catholic, but don't actually want to go to any effort in making that happen, they just want the school to do it.



    What makes you believe they want their kids to be Catholic?

    If there was no downside, with schools etc, to not being Catholic, why do you reckon people who don't bother their holes to engage in Catholicism would want their kids to?






    On the part about kids not getting confirmed, I took it that the poster meant that the kids would feel left out, in the sense of missing a party and getting money etc. How much you got was the first topic on the day after when I was in school. I doubt very many people are bullied excuse they didn't and I don't think that was implied.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    wnolan1992
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭wnolan1992


    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    Not really. They could work on group projects and present them to the other half of the class on a specified day; so they learn something and then pass what they've learnt on to the rest of the class. So maybe one teacher of that particular year could do the Communion or Confirmation preparation and the other(s) could work with the rest of the group.

    I'm sure there's lots of other options as well.

    But as I've already said, Sunday School is becoming a strong likelihood.

    That would literally be my definition of "superior education" though.

    One group is researching a topic, preparing a presentation and presenting in front of a group.

    Sunday Schools are the best option, but a middle ground would be to just hold religion classes directly after school ends. Final bell rings, kids who want to prepare for Communion stay back, kids who don't either go home or go to after-school study. Parents fund the cost of the teacher for that extra hour.

    Win-win really. Kids in general get a better education because you're not spending limited school time on religious pursuits. Teachers no longer need to be educated for religious teaching at third level, allowing them to be trained to a higher standard in relevant real world subjects. Parents who want their kids educated about their faith still can. Those that don't don't need to make a choice between having their kid singled out or having them educated in a religion they don't believe in.

    Literally no downsides. Unless they're afraid if it literally isn't forced on people that people will suddenly realise they don't need religion as much as they'd like people to believe they do.


  • #53
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,644 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    What makes you believe they want their kids to be Catholic?

    If there was no downside, with schools etc, to not being Catholic, why do you reckon people who don't bother their holes to engage in Catholicism would want their kids to?

    Ive encountered people who honestly believe its their right to have their childs religious education taken care of by the state.

    They see the potential removal of the catholic ethos and them having to take over the role of religious education in their childs lives as a form of discrimination. I have actually had someone try argue that because they pay taxes their child should be taught religion in school, when i asked what about people who dont want that they literally couldn't grasp that they were in a position of privilege having their religion taught in school above all others and paid for with taxes and argued the removal of that privilege was discrimination.


  • #54
    c68zapdsm5i1ru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭c68zapdsm5i1ru


    wnolan1992 wrote: »
    That would literally be my definition of "superior education" though.

    One group is researching a topic, preparing a presentation and presenting in front of a group.

    Sunday Schools are the best option, but a middle ground would be to just hold religion classes directly after school ends. Final bell rings, kids who want to prepare for Communion stay back, kids who don't either go home or go to after-school study. Parents fund the cost of the teacher for that extra hour.

    Win-win really. Kids in general get a better education because you're not spending limited school time on religious pursuits. Teachers no longer need to be educated for religious teaching at third level, allowing them to be trained to a higher standard in relevant real world subjects. Parents who want their kids educated about their faith still can. Those that don't don't need to make a choice between having their kid singled out or having them educated in a religion they don't believe in.

    Literally no downsides. Unless they're afraid if it literally isn't forced on people that people will suddenly realise they don't need religion as much as they'd like people to believe they do.

    I don't think it's going to give primary school kids a massive edge over their classmates, to be honest. If they were in an exam year and getting extra study time or something then I'd agree.

    However, Sunday School or after school religion classes are starting to look like the more pragmatic option. Personally I think Sunday School before or after Mass would make more sense than keeping kids back after school which could be messy vis a vis being collected by childminders, getting to other after school activities and so on.


  • #55
    wnolan1992
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭wnolan1992


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    What makes you believe they want their kids to be Catholic?

    If there was no downside, with schools etc, to not being Catholic, why do you reckon people who don't bother their holes to engage in Catholicism would want their kids to?

    Anecdotally only I'm afraid, but I know plenty of people who "Would want my kids to get Communion, get the Confirmation" etc who never go near a church except for weddings and funerals, or maybe while half-cut at Christmas.

    They don't actually care about the religion, they just want their kid to be Catholic because they're technically Catholic because their parents wanted them to be Catholic because they were technically Catholic because their parents wanted them to be Catholic because they were Catholic...

    No one wants to be the one in the family that breaks the tradition. I know my own parents would be snide and snarky if I decided not to baptise my kids. Granted, I don't give a sh*te and if I do have kids they're not coming within a mile of weird man in a white robe who wants to pour water over them, but the pressure is still there.


  • #56
    hurler32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭hurler32


    It's coming to the stage in rural Ireland there won't be enough priests to deal with confirmations baptisms in every parish anyways so it makes sense for those who aren't interested forget about it and not be taking up time or space if they hate the church so much ... same for weddings ... take over a church and expect an already under pressure priest to do the service ...


  • #57
    wnolan1992
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭wnolan1992


    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    I don't think it's going to give primary school kids a massive edge over their classmates, to be honest. If they were in an exam year and getting extra study time or something then I'd agree.

    However, Sunday School or after school religion classes are starting to look like the more pragmatic option. Personally I think Sunday School before or after Mass would make more sense than keeping kids back after school which could be messy vis a vis being collected by childminders, getting to other after school activities and so on.

    Oh I absolutely agree that Sunday School is the absolute best option, because it ensures the only people who are being inducted into the religion are those that are actively practicing.

    The suggestion of doing it after school is more a medium term solution to appease those who think it'd be abhorrent to get rid of it from schools entirely. Call it the slippery slope to getting it out completely, except we're the ones pushing it down the slope instead of trying to climb back up. :P


  • #58
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,407 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Dozyart wrote: »
    Had to get my kids baptised etc to get into local schools,but the oldest is up for confirmation this year and we have left it up to her now,she doesnt believe in god and we said we would respect whatever decision she makes.....so.....she made a business decision to do it for the money and never go back near a church were possible,pretty much what everyone does anyway


    Clinical execution


  • #59
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Trey Quick Flame wrote: »
    A priest in Enniscorthy has said that parents who want their children to make their Confirmation must attend Mass.

    Thats scandalous. What right has he to deny people a big day out?


  • #60
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,661 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I would be like several of the other parents here - against the whole idea in the first place, but forced to give in to it to get him a place in a decent school locally.

    When do they make their communion/confirmation anyway?


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,666 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Dozyart wrote: »
    so.....she made a business decision to do it for the money and never go back near a church were possible,pretty much what everyone does anyway

    Definitely a kid you can be proud of there. I wonder what sort of business decisions she'll make about the nursing home you'll go into.


    hurler32 wrote: »
    It's coming to the stage in rural Ireland there won't be enough priests to deal with confirmations baptisms in every parish anyways so it makes sense for those who aren't interested forget about it and not be taking up time or space if they hate the church so much ... same for weddings ... take over a church and expect an already under pressure priest to do the service ...

    Absolutely. In many places (not only rural ones) that's pretty close to case already.

    VinLieger wrote: »
    We have been told by every school near us as they are all catholic that if our child is not baptised they will be at the bottom of any admissions list and not guaranteed a place.

    So have you found other parents who feel like you, and asked Educate Together to open a school locally? What did they say? Or if you don't like ET, some other body, eg the local ETB (ex VEC). If not - then why not? Why should you benefit from the education governance structure that the church puts in place, when you don't share their values?

    AFAIK, every time the church has tried to divest itself of schools, the majority of parents have been opposed to this. Hopefully some priests will have the balls to do what the lad in Enniscorthy is doing and insist on no sacraments without family participation - and that will prompt some families to change their minds and make divestment possible.


Advertisement