The official "the-ball-goes-too-far" poll

RoadRunner · 13-02-2018 12:41pm #1

Interesting to get some figures on this and some comments on this new 'drive' by some in the game.

ShriekingSheet · 13-02-2018 12:56pm

I say yes, with the caveat that it should be restricted on Tour only or in Pro golf only. The Amateur game should be left as is.

Would you maybe think of adding a poll option for that? As I think that's what a few people are suggesting.

Basically, the thinking is that absolutely nothing should be done to make the game more difficult for the average player, or general amateurs.

But for Tour golf, as an entertainment spectacle, something has definitely been lost since so many players now hit mid irons into the likes of 13 and 15 at Augusta. Removing that risk of hitting a very long iron or (God forbid) a wood off the deck definitely reduces the drama of the events, and probably cuts down the number of guys who genuinely have a chance to compete - again, less fun for the spectator.

Some of the old and most favorite courses have and will be extended to adjust, but they're running out of room. Playing new venues in the desert that are 8,000 yards long with zero strategy involved, or allowing tournaments to be routinely won with 26 under par are not good options.

Reduce the driving distance and bring the trouble back into play - not allowing guys to bomb over bunkers or dog legs that they used to have to work around. Bring back the risk reward of par 5s by making it a genuinely long hit for the second shot, if at all. This should mean that guys can actually falter if they're in the lead, and not just cruise home as they always seem to do.

dan_ep82 · 13-02-2018 1:00pm

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://golfweek.com/2015/12/22/average-driving-distance-pga-tour-hasnt-changed-much-decade/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiK55DS6qLZAhWJJMAKHeqADXoQFjABegQIERAB&usg=AOvVaw2QBovw09mSmjUFW-wwEq-P&ampcf=1

It hasn't changed much in ten years, don't understand what the big fuss is about.

I don't think length should be the sole defence of a course anyhow, plenty of other ways of keeping the course tough.

martinkop · 13-02-2018 1:20pm

I think the concern is more about the change in the last 2 years; https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.html

68 lads averaging 300 yrds +

Russman · 13-02-2018 1:20pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://golfweek.com/2015/12/22/average-driving-distance-pga-tour-hasnt-changed-much-decade/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiK55DS6qLZAhWJJMAKHeqADXoQFjABegQIERAB&usg=AOvVaw2QBovw09mSmjUFW-wwEq-P&ampcf=1

It hasn't changed much in ten years, don't understand what the big fuss is about.

I don't think length should be the sole defence of a course anyhow, plenty of other ways of keeping the course tough.

I think I've seen something in the last few days though that indicates the distance has started to creep up again in the last year or so. It might have been on Golfwrx, can't remember.

Its a tricky one, I'm totally against bifurcation, and yet the added distance is really only applicable to a tiny, tiny percentage of golfers worldwide.
Maybe reducing the head size of drivers back down to 320cc or something (for everyone) so its not so easy to hit the sweetspot when swinging out of your shoes ? I dunno.

I think on Sky sports I've seen Dennis Pugh say something along the lines of: you need to be swinging over 113mph to really get the benefit of the modern ball. Apparently there's an exponential jump once you get to that speed, and realistically, how many people (apart from on the internet) actually swing at that speed ?

Totally agree that there's not much fun in watching someone blast a drive 340yds over the trouble and still able to chip onto the green out of the rough.
Also I totally see the savings in terms of land needed for courses, additional cost of maintenance and water on longer bigger courses, longer rounds etc etc that reining in the ball might bring. Yet I'm not 100% convinced we need to change the rules because of 40/50 long hitters on tour.

If I had to come down on one side or the other, I'd say yes bring it back a little.

ShriekingSheet · 13-02-2018 1:26pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://golfweek.com/2015/12/22/average-driving-distance-pga-tour-hasnt-changed-much-decade/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiK55DS6qLZAhWJJMAKHeqADXoQFjABegQIERAB&usg=AOvVaw2QBovw09mSmjUFW-wwEq-P&ampcf=1

It hasn't changed much in ten years, don't understand what the big fuss is about.

I don't think length should be the sole defence of a course anyhow, plenty of other ways of keeping the course tough.

The last 10 years is a short time. It doesn’t even take into account the Tiger era.

But even still, look at the number of “long hitters” as opposed to the yardage changes. In 2008, one guy was averaging 300 yards. Now pretty much half the field on the Saturday and Sunday of every tournament does so. That’s a huge change.

So, again from an entertainment perspective, where it used to be amazing to see a guy hit a short iron onto a par 5, or drive a par 4, now it’s every other John Tour Player who can do so.

Bare in mind, the driving is only part of the story. The ball goes further off irons as well. So if average driving goes up by 10 or 20 yards, add on more benefit for the 175 9 irons they’re now hitting.

Also worth pointing out that Daly (in the 90s) was using a Wilson Ultra ball - not a balata. So to get those distances he was sacrificing short game benefit. That’s not the case anymore.

ShriekingSheet · 13-02-2018 1:36pm

I don’t get the bifurcation argument.

What we watch on TV and what we play at the weekend are two different sports. There are already different rules for the tour / pros than for amateurs. There’s a really clear and distinct line could be drawn at main tour or secondary tour level to say: beyond here, you use a limited ball. Any elite player heading that direction will be able to work with that.

For everyone else, nothing changes, other than we get a bit of the entertainment value back that has been stripped away.

In fairness, is us that pays for the tour through TV rights, eyeballs for sponsors, equipment and BALL sales. So it’s not a ridiculous ask to want to preserve it as a spectacle.

backspin. · 13-02-2018 1:44pm

I'm sure engineers could design a ball that had diminishing returns as the swing speed goes in excess of 100mph. So someone swinging at 120mph wouldn't get 20% more distance maybe only 110% the distance.

With the current balls i think it is the opposite in that someone swing at 120mph probably gets 25% more distance of the 100mph swinger due to the way the core flexes.

dan_ep82 · 13-02-2018 2:10pm

Don't see the argument of limiting the driver head size. The sweet spot stays the same size and the guys hitting it 300+ aren't missing the middle.

I understand argument of spectator sport ete. However, hitting the ball far is a player skill, not equipment or the R&A would have stopped it before it began. These guys are doing more work than your John Dalys to earn that extra yardage. And if you take out roll most of the drives are much less spectacular. It just seems unfair to punish the guys putting in the work and reward the players who don't.

Russman · 13-02-2018 2:48pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Don't see the argument of limiting the driver head size. The sweet spot stays the same size and the guys hitting it 300+ aren't missing the middle.

I understand argument of spectator sport ete. However, hitting the ball far is a player skill, not equipment or the R&A would have stopped it before it began. These guys are doing more work than your John Dalys to earn that extra yardage. And if you take out roll most of the drives are much less spectacular. It just seems unfair to punish the guys putting in the work and reward the players who don't.

Two points I sort of disagree with there,
Guys hitting it 300 can miss the middle of the club quite often, not by much, but by enough that a 460cc head lets them away with it.

I don't agree that guys who don't hit it far aren't putting in the work. Some players, no matter what they do, will never hit it 300yds. I would have thought the authorities should try to have a game where skill it still a little bit important along with distance, these days at the top level its all about power and little else really, essentially most weeks, with a few exceptions, boil down to a putting contest (in the States anyway, probably not so much in Europe).

dan_ep82 · 13-02-2018 3:18pm

Russman wrote: »

Two points I sort of disagree with there,
Guys hitting it 300 can miss the middle of the club quite often, not by much, but by enough that a 460cc head lets them away with it.

I don't agree that guys who don't hit it far aren't putting in the work. Some players, no matter what they do, will never hit it 300yds. I would have thought the authorities should try to have a game where skill it still a little bit important along with distance, these days at the top level its all about power and little else really, essentially most weeks, with a few exceptions, boil down to a putting contest (in the States anyway, probably not so much in Europe).

These are the same guys hitting 3woods (smaller head) 260-280 in the air, really can't see the smaller head being a problem for long. Once they got used to it the smaller head will be swung even faster (weight+aerodynamics) so you would have the same "problem"

Why not, 110ss or so with a bit of roll will see 300yds and that's more or less the tour average. I'm sure most just look for fairway and give up a small bit if distance. Rory, DJ etc just go 100% and get the risk or reward.

If hitting the ball far wasn't a skill everyone would do it.

RoadRunner · 13-02-2018 3:45pm

I presume all proponents of "the ball goes too far and this needs to stop" are the poorest drivers on tour?

RGS · 13-02-2018 4:50pm

RoadRunner wrote: »

I presume all proponents of "the ball goes too far and this needs to stop" are the poorest drivers on tour?

Jack Nicklaus has been beating this drum for over 20 years and no one could accuse Jack, in his pomp, of being a short hitter.

Tiger has recently joined the chorus.

Something has to be done to bring the game back and changing the ball is the easiest solution.

If nothing is done new courses will need to go over 8,000 yds with par 5 nearer 700 yds. Where will designers get the land to build these new courses.

charlieIRL · 13-02-2018 4:53pm

I think they should tighten up fairways around the 280 - 350 yard mark! That'll stop them pounding one down that far and won't really effect the everyday golfer.

RoadRunner · 13-02-2018 5:14pm

RGS wrote: »

Jack Nicklaus has been beating this drum for over 20 years and no one could accuse Jack, in his pomp, of being a short hitter.

Tiger has recently joined the chorus.

Something has to be done to bring the game back and changing the ball is the easiest solution.

If nothing is done new courses will need to go over 8,000 yds with par 5 nearer 700 yds. Where will designers get the land to build these new courses.

No one would accuse Jack, in his pomp, of being a short hitter. However he certainly wasn't calling for these changes while in his pomp. Same too with Woods. It's great to have him back but he will use his clout to it's fullest to manipulate his chances of winning against his new opponents who now have a better long game than he does. His best chance of winning will certainly be to eliminate the advantage that the guys have who can swing 100% at the ball and still hit the fairway have over him. Was he calling for drastic changes to eliminate his advantage of the rest of the field during the tiger-proofing years? No. I'm sure the very term "tiger-proofing" give him great pride in his heyday.

re: courses needing to be 8,000y+ and 700y par5's, If you like, but why does it matter if -20 or +20 wins a comp?

Also changing the ball is not an easy solution to regulate unless you eliminate all the ball making manufacturers and standardise the ball to be made by a single manufacturer. Otherwise, well think of the type of cheating that's gone on in cycling by the teams to help them get every advantage. Cheating accusations in golf would be rampant whenever one guy outdrives another, "test that ball", "oh he hit it into the water - how convenient".

kiers47 · 13-02-2018 5:21pm

Also excuse my ignorance. But if the ball is changed to make it not go as far. Surely this will have an effect on the shorter hitters to or do they get to use the old ball?

The long drivers will still be longer than the shorter drivers. Grand you are protecting the courses but are you really going to even up the playing field? Id be skeptical.

valoren · 13-02-2018 5:41pm

Money is a factor as well. The increase in prize money makes a potential career as a pro very attractive for talented players. With the more attractive financial aspect it is going to encourage those players to take a shot in the Pro ranks and being capable of carrying the ball 300 yards is no longer a wonder but has quickly become a necessity. With that comes a more capable pool of incoming young professionals for whom, with the aid of trackman, equipment and hunger 300+ yards is standard practice. For me that explains how 69 players now average over 300 in driving distance.

You win the Masters in 1988 and you got a cheque for $183,000. Win it now and it's a shade under $2 million. Quite an increase in 30 years.

We remember Bubba hitting a sand wedge into the 13th hole 4 years ago. A 360 yard drive over the trees and Rae's Creek. And yet, he still had to chip, to putt, to shape his irons, to hit all the shots he needed to in order to post the numbers to win.

In 1948, Ben Hogan's scoring average was 69.30. In 2016, for all the discourse about technology and the ball, Dustin Johnson's scoring average was 69.17. A negligible improvement in 68 years. Of course there has been course lengthening, deeper rough, faster greens to mitigate the distance increases but the scoring averages align in the professional ranks. To me that correlation indicates that those changes are now standardised, they have successfully made today's scoring averages align with historical tour averages.

The ball is actually standardised as well. Any new improvements can't breach a set speed off the clubface on the 'Iron Byron' machine. That's a machine which hit's it perfectly every time. With the attractiveness of prize money, more and more motivated players are fine tuning their game to hit the ball to nearer and nearer that perfection. Leave the ball alone and long live the long hitters.

martinkop · 13-02-2018 6:17pm

Well said Valoren.

Essentially the kids that grew up watching Tiger are now on tour, after practicing smashing the ball for years. Plus more people play golf nowadays, hence the ability pool at the top of the game is deeper.

Insecurity Guard · 13-02-2018 6:48pm

kiers47 wrote: »

Also excuse my ignorance. But if the ball is changed to make it not go as far. Surely this will have an effect on the shorter hitters to or do they get to use the old ball?

The long drivers will still be longer than the shorter drivers. Grand you are protecting the courses but are you really going to even up the playing field? Id be skeptical.

It's not about leveling the playing field in that sense. With a modified ball, poor drivers would still be poor and great drivers would still be great, but everyone would be a little shorter.

Long hitters have always been with us and they of course deserve whatever advantages they can get from that. The issues now though are (a) how far they are hitting it and (b) their growing numbers. Modern equipment, diet, weight training, etc. etc. help more and more hit it further and further, giving rise to all the issues already discussed. Superbly designed courses are made to look ridiculous. How many otherwise excellent courses are simply not long enough any more to host a top level event?

Golf at the highest level must need more than a driver and a wedge - finesse and accuracy are just as important as distance.

Mantis Toboggan · 13-02-2018 7:33pm

No need for this, as was said earlier in this thread narrow the fairways and punish players who are wild off the tee.

BigChap1759 · 13-02-2018 8:43pm

RoadRunner wrote: »

I presume all proponents of "the ball goes too far and this needs to stop" are the poorest drivers on tour?

Jack Nicklaus?!

BigChap1759 · 13-02-2018 8:47pm

I think the main point for me is that some of the classic major courses have no more room to move the tees back and the design isn’t relevant because, as was said earlier, the new ball and other advances let them fly the ball over all the trouble and clever design points.

The long guys will still have an advantage of being longer but probably not such a disproportionate advantage as they have now - they might have to play the courses as they were originally designed again.

I say pro spec ball that spins more, leave the rest of us alone

Benicetomonty · 13-02-2018 9:33pm

Hard to see how manafacturers could be persuaded to pull back on years of technological advancements, no matter how hard a line the USGA and RandA took. Remember what a disaster the former had trying to deal with Ping and the box groove controversy?

I will say that for tour pros, making a short course difficult is a tricky prospect. You either have to go down the Merion / Winged Foot route where the fairways are pinched in and the rough is grown to extreme lengths, to the point where players would have lost balls in the stuff if not for the thousands of spectators. The other option is to make the greens borderline unputtable, which literally putts the event itself at risk, ie Shinnecock and the Olympic Club. Bad weather can defend a links, but you cant bank on that any more than you can on good weather.

All in all I think Augusta has held up relatively well over the years. 13 is a great hole, you might be able to fly it up the left but anything mi**** or pulled slightly is dead.

death1234567 · 13-02-2018 9:43pm

backspin. wrote: »

I'm sure engineers could design a ball that had diminishing returns as the swing speed goes in excess of 100mph. So someone swinging at 120mph wouldn't get 20% more distance maybe only 110% the distance.

With the current balls i think it is the opposite in that someone swing at 120mph probably gets 25% more distance of the 100mph swinger due to the way the core flexes.

This is the answer. It keeps the game the same for everyone and big hitters still have an advantage, just not as big of one as they have now. Current pro golf is a farce, keopka playing a near 8,000 yard us open course and never hitting any iron bigger than a seven iron was the moment it jumped the shark.

spacecoyote · 14-02-2018 9:44am

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Jack Nicklaus?!

...and Tom Watson...and Greg Norman...and Tiger have all come out with similar arguments to Nicklaus

RoadRunner · 14-02-2018 10:11am

Taking every tour pro in the world, forcing them to learn a new ball, then taking every ball manufacturer and forcing them to produce a ball that's x% sh1tter, but only for tour pros, regulating that the agreed apon x% is adhered to eternally, opening up a gulf in the difference between pro and amateur equipment. It is a lot of unworkable bullsh1t to have to go through because 3 former greats are upset that the younger guys are scoring better than they used to.

death1234567 · 14-02-2018 10:13am

RoadRunner wrote: »

Taking every tour pro in the world, forcing them to learn a new ball, then taking every ball manufacturer and forcing them to produce a ball that's x% sh1tter, but only for tour pros, regulating that the agreed apon x% is adhered to eternally, opening up a gulf in the difference between pro and amateur equipment. It is a lot of unworkable bullsh1t to have to go through because 3 former greats are upset that the younger guys are scoring better than they used to.

What a load of nonsense.

prawnsambo · 14-02-2018 10:25am

death1234567 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense.

I'm not sure that it is. The golf ball doesn't exist in isolation, it gets hit by a golf club that's engineered to get the most out of the contact area. If you change the mechanics of the ball, you can also change the mechanics of the driver to get more out of the strike. So there'd have to be a set of standards developed to prevent that and you would end up with a divergence of all equipment between pros and amateurs.

Slanty · 14-02-2018 11:09am

Have to agree with what’s being said in this thread. Used to be a big fan of golf on tv but it’s gotten so boring of late. Long drives, short wedges, either gets the putt or doesn’t and walks on. Hardly ever in trouble.

When they started using the gallery stands as ball stops so they could fly the green taking the hazards out of play that’s when I stopped watching.

RoadRunner · 14-02-2018 11:40am

death1234567 wrote: »

What a load of nonsense.

It is. Groove dept/width can be easily measured. Broomstick putters can be easily seen. Can you propose a way of bringing in a standardised level of retarded ball flight that would be adhered to by all manufacturers, can be tested easily, and will not lead to accusations of cheating by players/ball manufacturers?

OR

:

Are you one of those who think that a type of gentleman's agreement among manufacturers will suffice long term. Whereby each manufacturer would happily produce a ball designed to not be able fly over the bunkers?

Look, in all things you got to look at the scale of a problem and the proposed solution.

In F1 in 1955 one single incident caused the death of 84 people and seriously injured 120+ more. Later in the 60's and 70's, 1 in 3 drivers stepping into a race car would die in their own car, most by being burned alive upside-down. This is an example of a problem necessitating strict regulation (of car design) moving forwards, even despite the fact that it would open up regular cheating accusations.

I'm just not sure we're there yet with the enormity of our problem. And because "Jack says so" isn't good enough for me yet

backspin. · 14-02-2018 11:45am

I wouldn't like to see the pros use a different ball to us amateurs.

The official "the-ball-goes-too-far" poll

Should the ball be changed to reduce distance? 62 votes

Comments