Green fees: how do we stop the golf consultants ruining golf?

golfguy1 · 13-02-2018 6:18pm

Certainly during the season from may to mid October the main links courses in kerry/Clare are running close to full everyday. Pretty sure they do off season rates but still around €100.
Again I don't see why the SHOULD give any discount just because I am a member of an Irish golf club. Let's remember we only pay around €20 a yr to the gui
I can't think of any other business that gives me a discount just cause I'm Irish.

backspin. wrote: »

golfguy1 wrote: »

Of course not if they are busy. But is it really full all day every day. They could offer decent rates in off season.

ShivasIrons · 13-02-2018 6:37pm

I think some of the views posted in this thread show how the race to the bottom has been very detrimental to golf in Ireland.

There is a view been put out that every golf course in Ireland should offer their course for next to nothing.

However it is as simple as this, if you don't think a course is worth the fee they're asking don't pay it. Play somewhere else.

As has been pointed out earlier, you shouldn't be expecting to get a Ferrari for Mini prices.

neckedit · 14-02-2018 12:26am

thewobbler wrote: »

First of all, I don't expect cheap golf on quality courses. And I do expect that the market should determine the price, and not what I'm willing to pay.

But having scanned tee times for the coming weekend, a weekend which I must point out is in the middle of February, Seapoint are looking for €150pp for a Sunday morning tee time.

I can only assume a golf consultant has paid them a visit, and advised them about the now Fionn mac Cumhaill style story whereby Golf Links A was struggling to attract American visitors, until they cleverly trebled their prices overnight, at which point they'd a queue of price-equates-to-prestige-minded Yanks at their door. I call it Golf Links A as I've heard the same story about Ardglass, Castlerock, Ballyliffin, Portmarnock Links and Portsalon. It might even be a true story for some of them; for I've noticed that little old Kirkistown went down a similar route last winter.

As mentioned, I've no qualms with market rates.

But I'm going to make an assumption that Irish people won't pay €150 for a round of golf in February. And another one that the volume of American golf tourists in Ireland during February would comfortably fit in a single minibus.

So, can we possibly start spreading out a rumour (one which hopefully our golf travel consultants pick up upon, and turn into one of their rules) that golf courses really need to price according to the seasons?

Sunday Morning is Prime time.....
While I agree the Rate is on the high side, Its prime time. You did notice that they have many many open days for €30?

P.S. It was Ardglass.

thewobbler · 14-02-2018 1:08am

Prime time is not February.

Adiaga 2 · 14-02-2018 8:27am

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I think some of the views posted in this thread show how the race to the bottom has been very detrimental to golf in Ireland.

There is a view been put out that every golf course in Ireland should offer their course for next to nothing.

However it is as simple as this, if you don't think a course is worth the fee they're asking don't pay it. Play somewhere else.

As has been pointed out earlier, you shouldn't be expecting to get a Ferrari for Mini prices.

It's interesting how value for money in green fees is labelled "race to the bottom" so often. I don't get it personally. Are you saying making golf more affordable to more people is a bad thing? That's what it sounds like.

€150 for Seapoint in February, even on a sunday morning, is ridiculously over priced. It's like the Dacia garage next door to the Ferrari one asking Ferrari prices for a Duster.

newport2 · 14-02-2018 8:42am

I've found in the past that a lot of places don't charge what they advertise.

I played Enniscrone and Carne last year. Enniscrone was €135, I played open comp which was held weekly for €30. Carne was €110 with a GUI rate of €55.

Last time I played Doonbeg it was €150 and quiet. I went into the pro shop and asked what was the best deal they would give me. €90 for a round and dinner in the bar afterwards was the response. Got to play Lahinch for €40 because friend's uncle was a member and wangled it for us despite the fact he wasn't playing that day.

I think like the OP says, to attract a certain clientel they need to be seen to charge a premium. But there's often ways of getting around paying it.

prawnsambo · 14-02-2018 10:20am

There's an operator in France (and to a limited extent in a few other countries) called Golfy that gives you discounted green fees in many golf courses. It's obviously not the same thing, but at a starting price of €112, you can get discounts of 25% on green fees. Perhaps a model like that could work for GUI members?

neckedit · 14-02-2018 10:42am

thewobbler wrote: »

Prime time is not February.

while February is not Peak Season,
Sunday at the Majority of Clubs is Prime Time. There is a difference.

PARlance · 14-02-2018 10:55am

neckedit wrote: »

Sunday Morning is Prime time.....
While I agree the Rate is on the high side, Its prime time. You did notice that they have many many open days for €30?

P.S. It was Ardglass.

No, no, it was The Island...

Would love another go at Ardglass now that you mention it. Played it in an absolute gale before. Had to take the driver out on the Par 3 2nd, hit the best 170 yard drive of my life to a few feet.

Deals can be got anywhere, no point making a fuss about a club doing a bit of marketing to tourists. There's unreal value for golf here if you want to make it work for you.

PARlance · 14-02-2018 10:58am

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's an operator in France (and to a limited extent in a few other countries) called Golfy that gives you discounted green fees in many golf courses. It's obviously not the same thing, but at a starting price of €112, you can get discounts of 25% on green fees. Perhaps a model like that could work for GUI members?

www.openfairways.com/golf-courses/UK-and-Ireland/Ireland

This has been around for some time here. I don't think there's much of an uptake of it purely for the simple reason that you can find many ways to pay less than the rake rate without such a card.

If link isn't working, just search Open Fairways. It's the same thing that you describe.

prawnsambo · 14-02-2018 11:23am

neckedit wrote: »

while February is not Peak Season,
Sunday at the Majority of Clubs is Prime Time. There is a difference.

I just had a look on teetimes and these are the rates for Seapoint at the moment:

Monday - Thursday: €80
Friday: €100
Saturday: €120
Sunday: €150

Seapoint is the only course in County Louth offering bookings on teetimes. So pretty much in a monopoly situation on the site.

neckedit · 14-02-2018 11:26am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I just had a look on teetimes and these are the rates for Seapoint at the moment:

Monday - Thursday: €80
Friday: €100
Saturday: €120
Sunday: €150

Seapoint is the only course in County Louth offering bookings on teetimes. So pretty much in a monopoly situation on the site.

i'm sure you saw the Open Days for €30 too...

prawnsambo · 14-02-2018 11:30am

neckedit wrote: »

i'm sure you saw the Open Days for €30 too...

The open days aren't advertised on teetimes.

neckedit · 14-02-2018 11:34am

Sorry they are on the website.
I think it is important to point this out as the discussion has gone on to talk about GUI membership deals.

14-02-2018 11:36am

There are GUI rates on certain days for €40 on their website.

I think the €150 is well overpriced but apart from that it looks like there is no members time before 10:30am on Sunday. I can't imagine that is popular among members.

backspin. · 14-02-2018 11:50am

My cousin tells me he played Ballyliffin a few weeks ago for €30. He s a member of a Donegal club so maybe there is a reciprocal deal.

benny79 · 14-02-2018 12:15pm

Lads most clubs offer a gui rate if you ring and ask them. I was in Kerry on holidays 1 summer and got waterville for €65 in the middle of July 2 american lads that were behind me paid €180 each..

Petty the weather was terrible! it was like playing in a hurricane on the last few holes but enjoyed the experience

shamco · 14-02-2018 12:48pm

The GUI rate is waterville is a lot dearer now. I rang them last year and I think they quoted me ca €150

Dbu · 14-02-2018 12:59pm

shamco wrote: »

The GUI rate is waterville is a lot dearer now. I rang them last year and I think they quoted me ca €150

Open to correction, but I think Waterville is now €90 with a member, so €150 sounds about right.
Class track though

benny79 · 14-02-2018 1:37pm

So its doubled in 2 years that's poor form

rooney30 · 14-02-2018 2:55pm

Ballybunion has raised its green fee to 220. However this may still represent good value relative to its course ranking.. Golf digest has it' ranked 16th in the world . Would you play any of those other courses in the worlds top 20 for less than 220 ? I doubt it . Do some of the other courses in the worlds top 20 charge more than 220? almost certainly , and a lot more I'd say

ShivasIrons · 14-02-2018 2:56pm

Adiaga 2 wrote: »

It's interesting how value for money in green fees is labelled "race to the bottom" so often. I don't get it personally. Are you saying making golf more affordable to more people is a bad thing? That's what it sounds like.

€150 for Seapoint in February, even on a sunday morning, is ridiculously over priced. It's like the Dacia garage next door to the Ferrari one asking Ferrari prices for a Duster.

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

Making golf more affordable is not a bad thing. The 'race to the bottom' has lead to a number of different problems.

Let's look at how golf clubs are funded. They're funded mainly through member subscriptions and in general the subscriptions are linked to how much it costs to run the club. Green fees are then sold for times when the clubs are less busy and are used to subsidize subscriptions.

A green fee should then be related to the subscription, i.e. a one time visitor to a club pays a premium for playing the club. This is subsidizing the subscription. So a quick example of what a green fee should be, if a club is €1000 for the year and the average player plays 40 times it's €25 per round. A green fee for this club should be at least €40-€50 or more depending on quality, location, scarcity etc.

The race to the bottom, however has lead clubs to believe that the only reason that golfers play their club is because of price and that reducing the price will lead to more golfers playing. This however is not true. The reason why golfers join a club or play a club is location, quality of the course, course conditioning, atmosphere in the club, whether their friends are there and then price comes along. It is a factor but it's down on the list of factors.

As clubs think it's the main factor they ignore the other more important factors leading to a decline in services and spending as income decreases. When a regular green fee is cheaper then the average round, members start to leave.

Having a lower and lower green fee makes the business model of a golf course less sustainable and will lead to courses eventually closing. So the 'race to the bottom' would be beneficial to the consumer in the short term in cheaper prices but detrimental in the long term as more facilities close and standards decline in others.

There's a course up the road from here that's available for €10 most days on golf now. They might as well shut it down, they're driving members away. Focus on the member experience, that's the sustainable model.

As for the leading golf courses here, they are charging the correct amount for their courses, otherwise they would be full. The GUI member rate that so many want is a bad idea. Why would you sell a time cheaper to someone who doesn't value it as much as another customer. If you think the course is worth playing, pay it, if not don't.

There's always playing as a guest of member, or a national competition, or scratch cup. Don't expect to play wherever you want to, whenever you want to, at a price you dictate. This seems to be the attitude of many which is fueled by many clubs continually dropping their prices.

Clubs need consultants very badly as about 90% of Irish clubs are run very, very badly

neckedit · 14-02-2018 4:39pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

Making golf more affordable is not a bad thing. The 'race to the bottom' has lead to a number of different problems.

Let's look at how golf clubs are funded. They're funded mainly through member subscriptions and in general the subscriptions are linked to how much it costs to run the club. Green fees are then sold for times when the clubs are less busy and are used to subsidize subscriptions.

A green fee should then be related to the subscription, i.e. a one time visitor to a club pays a premium for playing the club. This is subsidizing the subscription. So a quick example of what a green fee should be, if a club is €1000 for the year and the average player plays 40 times it's €25 per round. A green fee for this club should be at least €40-€50 or more depending on quality, location, scarcity etc.

The race to the bottom, however has lead clubs to believe that the only reason that golfers play their club is because of price and that reducing the price will lead to more golfers playing. This however is not true. The reason why golfers join a club or play a club is location, quality of the course, course conditioning, atmosphere in the club, whether their friends are there and then price comes along. It is a factor but it's down on the list of factors.

As clubs think it's the main factor they ignore the other more important factors leading to a decline in services and spending as income decreases. When a regular green fee is cheaper then the average round, members start to leave.

Having a lower and lower green fee makes the business model of a golf course less sustainable and will lead to courses eventually closing. So the 'race to the bottom' would be beneficial to the consumer in the short term in cheaper prices but detrimental in the long term as more facilities close and standards decline in others.

There's a course up the road from here that's available for €10 most days on golf now. They might as well shut it down, they're driving members away. Focus on the member experience, that's the sustainable model.

As for the leading golf courses here, they are charging the correct amount for their courses, otherwise they would be full. The GUI member rate that so many want is a bad idea. Why would you sell a time cheaper to someone who doesn't value it as much as another customer. If you think the course is worth playing, pay it, if not don't.

There's always playing as a guest of member, or a national competition, or scratch cup. Don't expect to play wherever you want to, whenever you want to, at a price you dictate. This seems to be the attitude of many which is fueled by many clubs continually dropping their prices.

Clubs need consultants very badly as about 90% of Irish clubs are run very, very badly

Well said.

kiers47 · 14-02-2018 5:32pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

This is probably the single best comment in this thread. Value doesn't necessarily mean a low price.

It is to simplistic to compare getting a reduced rate at 1 course to not getting one at another course and doesn't necessarily mean that one is less or more value than the other.

slingerz · 14-02-2018 5:50pm

boomtown84 wrote: »

There is a GUI rate for Open Competitions in most of the top courses in the country. Tralee and Ballybunion are only €50 to play. Played both their Junior Scratch Cups last year in the same weekend. Great value. You need to be quick to get on the time sheet though.

Quick edit: Played Mt. Juliet last week for €40 and you can play the Ryder course in the K Club most weeks for €60. European has/had a €50 deal too. Just need to keep an eye on golfnet.

this is a very valid comment. The scratch cups and random open days offered by the elite courses at a reasonable value just be commended and acknowledged by the GUI members from other clubs.

However, not all clubs host a scratch cup. I dont believe Lahinch host one, neither do Waterville or the Old Head to the best of my knowledge.

These clubs should not be afforded the opportunity to allow their members to play in GUI competitions and other clubs open days as a result IMO

kiers47 · 14-02-2018 6:06pm

slingerz wrote: »

this is a very valid comment. The scratch cups and random open days offered by the elite courses at a reasonable value just be commended and acknowledged by the GUI members from other clubs.

However, not all clubs host a scratch cup. I dont believe Lahinch host one, neither do Waterville or the Old Head to the best of my knowledge.

These clubs should not be afforded the opportunity to allow their members to play in GUI competitions and other clubs open days as a result IMO

Im open to correction here but to my knowledge the Old Head are not in the GUI.

billy3sheets · 14-02-2018 8:23pm

kiers47 wrote: »

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

This is probably the single best comment in this thread. Value doesn't necessarily mean a low price.

It is to simplistic to compare getting a reduced rate at 1 course to not getting one at another course and doesn't necessarily mean that one is less or more value than the other.

Yes but cheap and expensive are relative terms to everyone.
I would think there are not many golfers in Ireland who would consider any course over 100 euros as cheap or good value.

Kingswood Rover · 14-02-2018 8:38pm

benny79 wrote: »

Lads most clubs offer a gui rate if you ring and ask them. I was in Kerry on holidays 1 summer and got waterville for €65 in the middle of July 2 american lads that were behind me paid €180 each..

Petty the weather was terrible! it was like playing in a hurricane on the last few holes but enjoyed the experience

Yanks get screwed over here for green fees. If they looked in here they would run a mile.

backspin. · 14-02-2018 8:45pm

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Yanks get screwed over here for green fees. If they looked in here they would run a mile.

If they truly are being fleeced as it is reported here I'd love for the golf channel or some of the big golf magazines to report in it.

neckedit · 14-02-2018 9:40pm

backspin. wrote: »

If they truly are being fleeced as it is reported here I'd love for the golf channel or some of the big golf magazines to report in it.

Why?
What would thay achieve?
The golf tourism sector is worth in excess of 200million to the Irish economy. The in bound golf tourist spends nearly Double the normal tourist.
if we are speaking of American golfers, alot of them save for years to come here and between Ireland and Scotland they are ticking off the aul bucket list and they are here for the total experience. Others are here on the corporate Credit Card where money is no object, And others fly in on a budget and will play one marquee course, coupled with a few of our real hidden treasure. We have some of the best Golf Products in the world and we are exceptionally lucky to have them. If they want to play them at peak Times in high season, they pay for it and they don't seem to mind. We should not be ashamed of this, Have faith in you product.

Green fees: how do we stop the golf consultants ruining golf?

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