Green fees: how do we stop the golf consultants ruining golf?

ThunderCat wrote: »

The ones in bold are members and their guests only aswell.

Golf in America can be very Expensive,

A non tour Hotel course can be €200+

A mate of mine Caddies over in Riveria where The PGA tour is on this week. The way these Country Club type places work is the member pays for everything on a tab bar Caddie tips (Additional to Caddie Fees)

It would be common enough for a member to bring out 3 guests and after Fees, Caddies, Drinks, Dinner etc to be spending €3,000-5,000 in a day


On Talk of Ripping off Yanks they do the exact same to us to some extent. Non residents of NY or San Diego would pay double that of Residents at Bethpage Black or Torrey Pines.

Can someone explain why a club that is full should charge less so someone who doesn’t want to pay the full fee can play it?

Does Mercedes, Rolex, Gucci, Prada, Bentley do this?

Why should one of the top 100 courses in the world do it?

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can someone explain why a club that is full should charge less so someone who doesn’t want to pay the full fee can play it?

Does Mercedes, Rolex, Gucci, Prada, Bentley do this?

Why should one of the top 100 courses in the world do it?

I don't think anyone is going to start blowing up greens in the middle of the night.

In general (nice segue even if I do say so myself), I agree that clubs should set their prices as they so wish.

I also think it's understandable for people to look at an "average" club setting "premium" rates and question it. In nothing more than a "that's a bit odd/nuts isn't it" sense.

I also think it's understandable for "local" Irish people to look at the likes of Ballybunion and say ~€200 is a bit nuts. Yes, it's in line/much less with other top courses in the world... but full membership is ~€450 per year in Ballybunion, that's not in line with other top courses in the World. Yes, there's a waiting list and a relatively modest joining fee (€7000 I think)...but once you're in, you're in. Most members will be paying less than €1,000 pa over their lifecycle, if you want to factor in that joining fee.

Some of the courses in the States that are being listed cost over €100,000 p.a so it's not exactly like for like in that sense. Not that there's any hard and fast rules on what green fees to charge. But there's no Rolex dealership on Main St Ballybunion, Tralee doesn't have a Bentley dealership and Abbeydorney doesn't have a Gucci store. It's far more palatable for a Course outside New York to be charging $5,000 a round... it makes more sense with a city with double the population of Ireland on it's doorstep. And a whole lot more wealth per capita.

Hank isn't going to be looking for a €60 green fee on a course that would cost Curtis €100,000 per year. Jimmy might be more justified in thinking that €60 is about right if Paddy is getting it for €450 p.a.

Clubs should charge what they want but most clubs should also look after "locals" too imo. Ballybunion does this. Most Irish course do. I've no real complaints at all, just putting forward a different angle on things.

Great value in Ireland, even at the higher end... you'll find a member if you want to, you'll get out for an Open / Event if you want to.

PARlance wrote: »

I don't think anyone is going to start blowing up greens in the middle of the night.

In general (nice segue even if I do say so myself), I agree that clubs should set their prices as they so wish.

I also think it's understandable for people to look at an "average" club setting "premium" rates and question it. In nothing more than a "that's a bit odd/nuts isn't it" sense.

I also think it's understandable for "local" Irish people to look at the likes of Ballybunion and say ~€200 is a bit nuts. Yes, it's in line/much less with other top courses in the world... but full membership is ~€450 per year in Ballybunion, that's not in line with other top courses in the World. Yes, there's a waiting list and a relatively modest joining fee (€7000 I think)...but once you're in, you're in. Most members will be paying less than €1,000 pa over their lifecycle, if you want to factor in that joining fee.

Some of the courses in the States that are being listed cost over €100,000 p.a so it's not exactly like for like in that sense. Not that there's any hard and fast rules on what green fees to charge. But there's no Rolex dealership on Main St Ballybunion, Tralee doesn't have a Bentley dealership and Abbeydorney doesn't have a Gucci store. It's far more palatable for a Course outside New York to be charging $5,000 a round... it makes more sense with a city with double the population of Ireland on it's doorstep. And a whole lot more wealth per capita.

Hank isn't going to be looking for a €60 green fee on a course that would cost Curtis €100,000 per year. Jimmy might be more justified in thinking that €60 is about right if Paddy is getting it for €450 p.a.

Clubs should charge what they want but most clubs should also look after "locals" too imo. Ballybunion does this. Most Irish course do. I've no real complaints at all, just putting forward a different angle on things.

Great value in Ireland, even at the higher end... you'll find a member if you want to, you'll get out for an Open / Event if you want to.

The reason ballybunion and other top courses membership is so cheap per annum is due yo the fact u can't get out before 3/4pm most days during the summer season. I know members in tralee who rarely play due to the amount of greenfees on the course from may-october

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can someone explain why a club that is full should charge less so someone who doesn’t want to pay the full fee can play it?

Does Mercedes, Rolex, Gucci, Prada, Bentley do this?

Why should one of the top 100 courses in the world do it?

Because - a golf club in Ireland has a different identity. It is not just about profit, typically. Local community in Ireland is not about an elite world brand - like the ones mentioned.

Irish towns and communities are fairly small - the tourist season is fairly short.

The local golf club - was/is an integral part of the community - a location where the local builder plays golf with the solicitor and the doctor and the mechanic play golf together and he looks after the doctor's car. It isn't straight forward. Irish golf clubs are run on a considerable amount of good will and volunteerism. They hold funerals, baptisms, weddings, charity events for local people, not all members.

I'm not naive saying that there is not a class element in Ireland around golf - but there is a different dynamic going on here. I like the Irish model - and the stuff around the exclusive country club in America is a bit distasteful to be honest.

In America - cash is king - and the fee is what you can pay. Paying a fee is a statement. The population around the golf clubs are 10 times the amount.
The tipping culture and openly flashing money - would be laughed at here and would not be the done thing.

But the local GAA lad and the the local bar man is not going to go out and pay 400 euro to play his local club. Golf clubs here are very small communities - Isolating your local community is a big jump - changing your approach for a couple of yanks in July and August is not going to work all year round.

There are a couple of courses I can think of, that have totally isolated themselves from the local community likes of.

Portmarnock
Old Head
Doonbeg
K club

They are the exception - and there is very little warmth towards them.

golfguy1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure portmarnock old head doonbeg and the k club are worried about the warmth towards them. They are making money which is the most important thing for a golf club now.
What good is the "warmth" for all the struggling golf clubs.
I would love my club to be able to make money like them so club could reinvest in course to improve it for members and visitors

the bottom line really is that these clubs (and add in RCD, RP, Ballyb, Waterville) are taking in more than 1.5m in green fee revenue and most clubs in ireland probably struggle to get to €100,000 in green fees.

Its like any business, to get to the top, you need to have something special. And that in Ireland is our links golf. Nobody is really going to fork out big to play parkland. I'd be surprised even in Mount Juliet or the K Club if their golf course made a substantial profit, compared with the top links courses.

Theres a massive gulf between those at the top (of which I would say there might be 20 courses taking €750,000 in green fees) and everything else. Its a numbers game at the end of the day.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Because - a golf club in Ireland has a different identity. It is not just about profit, typically. Local community in Ireland is not about an elite world brand - like the ones mentioned.

Irish towns and communities are fairly small - the tourist season is fairly short.

The local golf club - was/is an integral part of the community - a location where the local builder plays golf with the solicitor and the doctor and the mechanic play golf together and he looks after the doctor's car. It isn't straight forward. Irish golf clubs are run on a considerable amount of good will and volunteerism. They hold funerals, baptisms, weddings, charity events for local people, not all members.

I'm not naive saying that there is not a class element in Ireland around golf - but there is a different dynamic going on here. I like the Irish model - and the stuff around the exclusive country club in America is a bit distasteful to be honest.

In America - cash is king - and the fee is what you can pay. Paying a fee is a statement. The population around the golf clubs are 10 times the amount.
The tipping culture and openly flashing money - would be laughed at here and would not be the done thing.

But the local GAA lad and the the local bar man is not going to go out and pay 400 euro to play his local club. Golf clubs here are very small communities - Isolating your local community is a big jump - changing your approach for a couple of yanks in July and August is not going to work all year round.

There are a couple of courses I can think of, that have totally isolated themselves from the local community likes of.

Portmarnock
Old Head
Doonbeg
K club

They are the exception - and there is very little warmth towards them.

While i agree with the sentiment of your post i played Doonbeg a few weeks back and found that the locals had no issue with the course

Slightly off topic but members of clubs that don't run any open comps should be excluded in playing in other clubs open competitions.

It can't be right that a member from Portmarnock GC (for example) can compete in my club's SCR but I don't get the opportunity to compete in theirs, because they chose not to have one.

The issue is not complicated and its easy to fix, so come on GUI, do the right thing and brig some balance into the game.

slingerz wrote: »

While i agree with the sentiment of your post i played Doonbeg a few weeks back and found that the locals had no issue with the course

Yes, I think they got off to a bad start - but the crash brought it down a peg or two.

But - don't know how locals feels about the place at this point.

golfguy1 wrote: »

Can't agree with you.
Each club should be allowed to run their business as they see fit. Not every club runs a senior scratch cup and rightly so. My club does so by your thinking I should have the option to play a senior scratch cup at every other club just because one chooses to host one.

Each to their own but I think there's a gap.

There are only a handful of clubs don't run opens EVER. These clubs are totally out of kilter with the rest of the country and should be insensitivsed to change their tune.

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for a cheap round on one of these courses, I have friends that are members and I can play them reasonably cheaply. Its the principle that irks me.

My club doesn't have opens, I've brought it up with a committee member and he replied that we have 'semi opens'. Asked him would it not be worth having a bank holiday Monday in May like say Tralee (Monday 19th march people!), but he said that the older members don't want it (seems to be the committee's answer for everything). Bottom line is that they don't need to do it. I will bring it up again though, next time I'm at a meeting.

I play opens in other courses, great way to play courses in their peak condition, but not sure its fair to penalise people that way, nor would they.

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

My club doesn't have opens, I've brought it up with a committee member and he replied that we have 'semi opens'. Asked him would it not be worth having a bank holiday Monday in May like say Tralee (Monday 19th march people!), but he said that the older members don't want it (seems to be the committee's answer for everything). Bottom line is that they don't need to do it. I will bring it up again though, next time I'm at a meeting.

I play opens in other courses, great way to play courses in their peak condition, but not sure its fair to penalise people that way, nor would they.

I agree, 2 wrongs don't make a right

I also think the clubs in question would probably change their policy if the rule was brought in. As it stands there is no incentive.

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

What club is that? and fair play for advocating for a proper open or 2,personally i would not be in favor of banning members from clubs that do not have opens from playing in other clubs opens, 2 wrongs and all that. I think the GUI could impress upon such clubs the having opens is a something that the union feels is expected from all affiliated clubs.

I'll actually bring this up again with one of the committee members to see if there is any fresh appetite. I'm in the Island.

thewobbler wrote: »

First of all, I don't expect cheap golf on quality courses. And I do expect that the market should determine the price, and not what I'm willing to pay.

But having scanned tee times for the coming weekend, a weekend which I must point out is in the middle of February, Seapoint are looking for €150pp for a Sunday morning tee time.

I can only assume a golf consultant has paid them a visit, and advised them about the now Fionn mac Cumhaill style story whereby Golf Links A was struggling to attract American visitors, until they cleverly trebled their prices overnight, at which point they'd a queue of price-equates-to-prestige-minded Yanks at their door. I call it Golf Links A as I've heard the same story about Ardglass, Castlerock, Ballyliffin, Portmarnock Links and Portsalon. It might even be a true story for some of them; for I've noticed that little old Kirkistown went down a similar route last winter.

As mentioned, I've no qualms with market rates.

But I'm going to make an assumption that Irish people won't pay €150 for a round of golf in February. And another one that the volume of American golf tourists in Ireland during February would comfortably fit in a single minibus.

So, can we possibly start spreading out a rumour (one which hopefully our golf travel consultants pick up upon, and turn into one of their rules) that golf courses really need to price according to the seasons?

We were advised to do the same in Greenore. Thankfully we declined.

The golfers looking for open competitions at every course, really should be saying what they mean, which is we want to play the best courses at highly discounted rates, because I'm pretty sure if Portmarnock, as an example, had an open competition at their standard rate of €225 or Winter rate of €145 they would be not happy with that either