Smart Alarm

chrismon · 21-02-2019 9:00am #1

Hi all.
I want to put some sort of alarm into my home but don't want to spend €40 a month on monitoring when I could do it myself.
What's out there that people recommend?

bk · 21-02-2019 12:19pm

It depends on what you want and need.

First of all let me say that currently this is a very conservative market, it moves slowly and it is currently a transition point IMO where there is really no perfect system. Just different systems with pros and cons.

First you have your more traditional, professionally installed systems. They typically have very good security features, but lag in terms of smart technology and are a bit out of date now.
- HKC, leading system in Ireland, very reliable, app/self monitoring costs €70 per year
- Siemens Vanderbilt and GSD are two other traditional systems which have free apps and free self monitoring.

These don't have much else in terms of Smart technology or integration.

Then you have some new, DIY Smart Sytems:
- Yale Smart Home and Yale Sync systems. I've this myself. Pretty cheap system, install yourself, free app and self monitoring. Downsides are it is wireless only, no shock sensors, contacts only and single path only comms, no GSM backup channel. Upside can integrate with Hue smart lights.
- Honeywell Evohome Smart Alarm, a similar system to the above, but uses GSM, rather then broadband. €20 to keep the SIM card going per year after the free first two years.

Also there are interesting systems from Smanos and Somnify.

There are a whole bunch of really interesting Smart Alarms in the US market, Nest, Ring, Smartthings ADT, etc. But non have come to Europe yet. Some probably will in the next year or so.

21-02-2019 2:39pm

bk wrote: »

It depends on what you want and need.

First of all let me say that currently this is a very conservative market, it moves slowly and it is currently a transition point IMO where there is really no perfect system. Just different systems with pros and cons.

Exactly.

First you have your more traditional, professionally installed systems. They typically have very good security features, but lag in terms of smart technology and are a bit out of date now.
- HKC, leading system in Ireland, very reliable, app/self monitoring costs €70 per year

€5 per month, so €60 per annum. I agree that they are a bit out of date. However they do have wired and wireless sensors in addition to motion detectors with built in cameras. These units send phots to the app in the event of bing triggered. The same app can also integrate with CCTV cameras.

- Siemens Vanderbilt and GSD are two other traditional systems which have free apps and free self monitoring.

A good system but very few installers = less competition = higher price.

These don't have much else in terms of Smart technology or integration.

Agreed. You can drive a few outputs, that’s about it.

Then you have some new, DIY Smart Sytems:
- Yale Smart Home and Yale Sync systems. I've this myself. Pretty cheap system, install yourself, free app and self monitoring. Downsides are it is wireless only, no shock sensors, contacts only and single path only comms, no GSM backup channel. Upside can integrate with Hue smart lights.

No shock sensors is a big disappointment IMHO but I don’t see why could couldn’t add a 3rd party GSM device.

bk · 21-02-2019 7:06pm

2011 wrote: »

No shock sensors is a big disappointment IMHO but I don’t see why could couldn’t add a 3rd party GSM device.

The Yale is a small, integrated, hand sized box. It wouldn't have the support to add 3rd party devices like the more traditional panels do.

I have seen routers that had 3G support built in as backup if the broadband went down, one of those on a UPS could do the trick. I'd assume you could also build something with a RaspberryPi to monitor the alarm and signal over GSM, but would be beyond most consumers abilities.

For me, it would be a nice to have but not a real issue.
- Live in an apartment, so you'd need to cut the broadband to 100 apartments, so quiet unlikely.
- I've two devices with 5 minutes polling that would notify me of the Broadband being down.
- I get on very well with my neighbours, we all keep an eye out.

So it wasn't a big deal for me.

As for the shock sensors, yes, I notice that non of the new US smart systems has them. They really seem to be only a feature of alarm systems in the UK/Ireland.

In the US, they seem to rely more on external PIR's in the garden, curtain PIR's, point to point sensors and audible glass break sensors.

BTW the Somfy system does have shock sensors and one of the Smanos systems has very interesting support for more unusual sensors like point to point ones, curtain PIRs and external PIRs

garion · 21-02-2019 7:55pm

I've ordered an Abode Smart Alarm (https://goabode.com/) via a friend in the US. I'll hopefully have it installed within a month so will keep you all posted.

It looks great with a huge variety of sensors etc. and despite not selling it in Europe, I've read reviews on reddit from folks using it outside of the US without any issues.

21-02-2019 8:08pm

bk wrote: »

The Yale is a small, integrated, hand sized box. It wouldn't have the support to add 3rd party devices like the more traditional panels do.

I suspect that these alarms can work with a 3rd party GSM module.
All it needs is a "trigger wire" that becomes live when the alarm activates. This is enough to get the GSM module to send a text to multiple phones.

For me, it would be a nice to have but not a real issue.
- Live in an apartment, so you'd need to cut the broadband to 100 apartments, so quiet unlikely.
- I've two devices with 5 minutes polling that would notify me of the Broadband being down.
- I get on very well with my neighbours, we all keep an eye out.

I wasn't referring specifically to you and your set up. My statement was directed more to the OP.

In the US, they seem to rely more on external PIR's in the garden, curtain PIR's, point to point sensors and audible glass break sensors.

In Ireland we tend to take the view that it is a bit late for the alarm to activate a this point as the intruder has already gained entry. The preference is to have an alarm that activates before the intruder has breached the perimeter. We are covering old ground here so I will leave it at that....

BTW the Somfy system does have shock sensors and one of the Smanos systems has very interesting support for more unusual sensors like point to point ones, curtain PIRs and external PIRs

That's good.

OU812 · 21-02-2019 8:11pm

Be sure to tell your insurance company you've no alarm & take the discount hit. They won't pay out on a non professional installed alarm

21-02-2019 9:20pm

OU812 wrote: »

Be sure to tell your insurance company you've no alarm & take the discount hit. They won't pay out on a non professional installed alarm

Nope, this is a common misconception.
In fact it depends entirely on your policy. My policy for example will provide me with the discount despite the fact that I told them in writing that I installed my own alarm.

However I always recommend that people do not avail of alarm discounts as in general there are conditions in the fine print such as if the alarm was not armed during a break in the insurance company do not have to pay out (and yes they can check). It would be most unfortunate to have your house ransacked only to find out that the insurance will not cover it due to a technicality.

Edit: My home is insured with Zurich by the way.

Roen · 21-02-2019 10:14pm

garion wrote: »

I've ordered an Abode Smart Alarm (https://goabode.com/) via a friend in the US. I'll hopefully have it installed within a month so will keep you all posted.

It looks great with a huge variety of sensors etc. and despite not selling it in Europe, I've read reviews on reddit from folks using it outside of the US without any issues.

I have a lot of ZWave gadgets in my house already, don't the US ZWave and the European Zwave items operate at a different frequency? Are you in a similar position or are you starting from scratch?

wexfordman2 · 21-02-2019 10:46pm

The comfort alarm from cytech, fully functional smart alarm system with interfaces to multiple ha systems, and now also has a dedicated node red module, so integration into pretty.much anything

Not cheap, but ultra stable, and very very reliable.

An owner/user for nearly twenty years the system has continually evolved and is ahead if the game imho.

chrismon · 22-02-2019 12:13pm

Thanks for the info.

I think I'm going to have a basic HKC alarm installed. I'm a qualified sparky but have no cert for installing alarms, painful having to splash out on getting it installed, can't even buy them in the wholesaler anymore.

I'd be tempted to build something myself with a raspberry pi or similar and use my cctv for monitoring.
But they do crash from time to time so might be reliable enough.

22-02-2019 9:56pm

chrismon wrote: »

Thanks for the info.

I think I'm going to have a basic HKC alarm installed. I'm a qualified sparky but have no cert for installing alarms

Not required for installling an alarm inuour own home. Installing in other people’s homes is a different story.

can't even buy them in the wholesaler anymore.

Yes you can.

23-02-2019 12:33pm

chrismon wrote: »

can't even buy them in the wholesaler anymore.

Here is where I purchased HKC products at a good price. I think some vested interests try to spread the myth that the general public can not buy alarm products.

bk · 23-02-2019 4:15pm

Roen wrote: »

I have a lot of ZWave gadgets in my house already, don't the US ZWave and the European Zwave items operate at a different frequency? Are you in a similar position or are you starting from scratch?

Yes, Z-wave uses different frequencies in the US and those frequencies aren't legal to use in the EU.

garion wrote:

It looks great with a huge variety of sensors etc. and despite not selling it in Europe, I've read reviews on reddit from folks using it outside of the US without any issues.

It is a great looking system and I'm sure it works. But it is illegal to use Z-wave devices from the US here.

wexfordman2 · 23-02-2019 4:32pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, Z-wave uses different frequencies in the US and those frequencies aren't legal to use in the EU.

It is a great looking system and I'm sure it works. But it is illegal to use Z-wave devices from the US here.

Illegal and using the 900 spectrum allocated for low band 3g/2g for mobile operators in Ireland.

My advice, steer well clear.of using them.

chrismon · 23-02-2019 9:23pm

2011 wrote: »

Here is where I purchased HKC products at a good price. I think some vested interests try to spread the myth that the general public can not buy alarm products.

Ok good stuff!
I tried buying through CT Electric where I have an account and they don't supply anymore!
Thanks for the info!
Might just install my own so!

Roen · 24-02-2019 1:46pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Illegal and using the 900 spectrum allocated for low band 3g/2g for mobile operators in Ireland.

My advice, steer well clear.of using them.

So effectively Abode in Europe is a non runner. Or is the core of their product non zwave and only the expanded functionality is zwave?
A bit confused on it at the mo.

garion · 24-02-2019 1:54pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Illegal and using the 900 spectrum allocated for low band 3g/2g for mobile operators in Ireland.

My advice, steer well clear.of using them.

Hmmm, I want aware of this. Any idea what the penalty would be if caught?

wexfordman2 · 24-02-2019 2:07pm

garion wrote: »

Hmmm, I want aware of this. Any idea what the penalty would be if caught?

The potential penalty, I dont know, but assume they could be quite significant.

Practically, I can tell you, having been involved as part of my work, in identifying external interference on mobile networks, and pin pointing the location, I can tell you that normally, a knock on the door or query about the equipment has been enough to get it shut down
Normally, once the source was identified, we would also inform comreg as standard, but the generally innocent user was typically unaware of the impact.

There was an occasion where the retailer was repeatedly warned by comreg and eventually.prosecuted I beleive.

Small low power devices can significantly impact mobile networks, I have seen wireless camera systems knock out local cells, and cause literally thousands of dropped calls per day. The financial cost of this to an operator, never mind the reputational impact is not insignificant.

Z wave, low power, intermittent would probably not have such a large impact, I would be more concerned about the potential impact of the local network on you than vice versa.

Again, my advice, stay well clear

bk · 25-02-2019 1:40pm

Roen wrote: »

So effectively Abode in Europe is a non runner. Or is the core of their product non zwave and only the expanded functionality is zwave?
A bit confused on it at the mo.

Their hub seems to use three protocols:
AdobeRF - 433MHz
Zwave Plus - 915MHz
Zigbee - 2.4GHz

It would seem that their sensors are a mis-mash of 433MHZ and Zwave Plus ones.

433MHZ is legally fine to use here, though it is a very "noisy" frequency. Early alarm systems use to use it here, but it wasn't very reliable and most have moved to 868MHz here. The fact Adobe use this frequency, while legal, is poor IMO.

Zigbee is fine, it is the same as Wifi.

Z-Wave operating at 915MHz is definitely not ok here.

The issue you'd have, is even if you only bought sensors that use 433MHz, the hub itself will still be transmitting Z-Wave at 915MHz, so not good.

Adobe will need to officially launch a new hub and sensors here to support Europe. Unfortunately I wouldn't buy one otherwise.

Roen · 25-02-2019 6:12pm

Cool, had it in the back of my mind that Euro zwave didn't play nice with it's transatlantic cousins.
Cheers for detailed reply.

scorn · 25-02-2019 10:07pm

chrismon wrote: »

I think I'm going to have a basic HKC alarm installed.

If you get that installed then take a look at Konnected which can hook into your home alarm. In their words:

"Connect your home's wired alarm system to SmartThings or Home Assistant and make it smart."

You obviously need one of those hubs set up (actually it's compatible with a few now) but by the sounds of things you could already be there. I've been interested in them for a while - especially more so now as I believe that you don't have to replace the alarm panel any more as they have a board that can run in parallel to the existing alarm board.

garion · 25-02-2019 11:49pm

bk wrote: »

Their hub seems to use three protocols:
AdobeRF - 433MHz
Zwave Plus - 915MHz
Zigbee - 2.4GHz

It would seem that their sensors are a mis-mash of 433MHZ and Zwave Plus ones.

433MHZ is legally fine to use here, though it is a very "noisy" frequency. Early alarm systems use to use it here, but it wasn't very reliable and most have moved to 868MHz here. The fact Adobe use this frequency, while legal, is poor IMO.

Zigbee is fine, it is the same as Wifi.

Z-Wave operating at 915MHz is definitely not ok here.

The issue you'd have, is even if you only bought sensors that use 433MHz, the hub itself will still be transmitting Z-Wave at 915MHz, so not good.

Adobe will need to officially launch a new hub and sensors here to support Europe. Unfortunately I wouldn't buy one otherwise.

Thanks WexfordMan & bk. I wish I'd asked the question here a few days ago!

I contacted them on chat earlier & they confirmed the product isn't suitable for Europe. They did say they are exploring a European version but no commitment on release dates so I'll be returning my purchase. :mad:

chrismon · 04-03-2019 10:58am

2011 wrote: »

Here is where I purchased HKC products at a good price. I think some vested interests try to spread the myth that the general public can not buy alarm products.

Rang Mercury.
They only supply to registered fitters now.

04-03-2019 12:21pm

chrismon wrote: »

Rang Mercury.
They only supply to registered fitters now.

Extraordinary. It is odd for a business to turn away cash in this day and age.

I bought lots of HKC gear from Mercury.
I still have the receipt.

Never mind you can simply pick a wholesaler that will be willing to take your money from this list of HKC distributors:

https://www.hkcsecurity.com/ie/find-distributors/#.WIiJLYXXIqU

I also purchased HKC kit from NEW in Bray and Eurosales in Sandyford.

bk · 04-03-2019 1:09pm

You could probably buy from the UK too. Might actually be cheaper, but higher delivery fees. Might need to use ParcelWizard

UK Suppliers here:
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/uk/find-distributors/

chrismon · 04-03-2019 3:45pm

bk wrote: »

You could probably buy from the UK too. Might actually be cheaper, but higher delivery fees. Might need to use ParcelWizard

UK Suppliers here:
https://www.hkcsecurity.com/uk/find-distributors/

Good thinking!

wexfordman2 · 04-03-2019 9:59pm

chrismon wrote: »

Rang Mercury.
They only supply to registered fitters now.

I've seen Yale alarms for sale in b and q mahon point.

No idea what they are like, and how you could integrate them though.

04-03-2019 10:19pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

No idea what they are like, and how you could integrate them though.

I'm not a fan for a number of reasons such as they do not meet the EN50131 (this standard sets the bar very low).
Also they are not compatible with inertia shock sensors which for me is a deal breaker.

I know that BK likes Yale alarms and I accept his point that inertia shock sensors are of little advantage for those that live in an apartment that is above ground floor level.

bk · 04-03-2019 11:24pm

2011 wrote: »

I'm not a fan for a number of reasons such as they do not meet the EN50131 (this standard sets the bar very low).

An alarm needs to be professionally installed to be EN50131 certified. As the Yale ones are for DIY focused systems, it is the only reason they aren't EN50131 certified from what I can see.

Their isn't anything else about them that wouldn't allow them to be EN50131 AFAIK. They meet all the other requirements that I can tell. Battery backup, SAAB, comms channel, etc.

Having looked at the EN50131 standard, it is now quiet out of date (more then 10 years, lots has changed in electronics and security since then) and has some terrible inadequacies and obvious security holes IMO.

2011 wrote: »

Also they are not compatible with inertia shock sensors which for me is a deal breaker.

I know that BK likes Yale alarms and I accept his point that inertia shock sensors are of little advantage for those that live in an apartment that is above ground floor level.

Actually I'm ground floor, but doesn't bother me

wexfordman2 wrote:

No idea what they are like, and how you could integrate them though.

You can get unofficial arm/disarm and alarm activated alerts in SmartThings and thus out to Google Assistant, IFTTT, etc. integration.

Very cool, is that it has official integration with Philips Hue. If the alarm goes off, all your lights flash red, turning your whole home into one big SAAB. Honestly I can't see many thieves sticking around when light up like that.

The longer I've had this system, the more impressed I've gotten with it. It has been proven quiet reliable. It definitely isn't prefect and definitely isn't my ideal system. But I'm quiet happy with it for now.

05-03-2019 12:19am

@BK, as stated EN50131 sets the bar very low. Yale alarms can not comply with this regardless who installs it because these systems don’t meet all of the requirements. Alarms that meet this standard state it very clearly on their documentation. This is just one reason why no professionals installers use them.

See link:
https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/alarm-systems-alarmingly-insecure-oh-the-irony/

Suggest that those that require an alarm that is compliant with EN50131 should "contact Yale Security point (0800 9700 247) for a suitable installed system".
I would be interested to know what this is. Somehow I suspect that whatever is offered is very different to their DIY offering. In terms of a solid system with good home automation integration I think that wexfordman2 has the best solution.

I agree with you that from a home automation perspective they have some advantages. However this is not as important as security to most people. HKC are not where they should be in terms of automation. I am not one of those people that think that HKC is the be all and end all.

However if you are happy with it, good for you

Smart Alarm

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