Windscreen discs on UK motors.

Lord Nikon · 21-02-2019 4:58pm #1

Driving your vehicle in Ireland requires you to display relevant discs(Insurance, tax, and maybe NCT). However, I find it crazy that cars on UK plates can drive around without any visual proof of insurance/tax/MOT. Where I could purchase a car up North, and street park it in Dublin without any valid documents, as no one is the wiser.

Is it required by law in England to produce proof of insurance/tax/MOT at a checkpoint, as UK has the ANPR system which checks this automatically. If insurance/tax/MOT in UK are all digitized, then are they issuing paper documents for showing when at a checkpoint?

Why haven’t Ireland brought in the ANPR system, which would see a decrease in the amount of time the Gardai spend at checkpoints(checking for tax/NCT).

gooch2k9 · 21-02-2019 5:01pm

They don't issue any certificates anymore. Insurance companies provide one online usually that can be printed off.

MOT is now just a report, no certificate for the last two or three years.

_Brian · 21-02-2019 5:05pm

With everything digital now every guard on the beat should have a hand held scanner, few seconds would tell if a car is covered or not. No problems with home made discs which can be hard to spot.

seamus · 21-02-2019 5:06pm

Lord Nikon wrote: »

Driving your vehicle in Ireland requires you to display relevant discs(Insurance, tax, and maybe NCT). However, I find it crazy that cars on UK plates can drive around without any visual proof of insurance/tax/MOT. Where I could purchase a car up North, and street park it in Dublin without any valid documents, as no one is the wiser.

Is it required by law in England to produce proof of insurance/tax/MOT at a checkpoint, as UK has the ANPR system which checks this automatically. If insurance/tax/MOT in UK are all digitized, then are they issuing paper documents for showing when at a checkpoint?

Why haven’t Ireland brought in the ANPR system, which would see a decrease in the amount of time the Gardai spend at checkpoints(checking for tax/NCT).

We do have ANPR in Ireland, but your average Garda wandering down the road or standing at a checkpoint, doesn't.

The UK have seen motor tax evasion rates triple since they abolished the discs.

Tbh, any solution that involves pay a specific motor tax on your vehicle has flaws. SORN and ANPR do a good job of keeping honest people honest, but won't catch most evaders.

Abolishing motor tax and increasing the cost of fuel is the only way forward.

Dravokivich · 21-02-2019 5:09pm

seamus wrote: »

Abolishing motor tax and increasing the cost of fuel is the only way forward.

We've already done that haven't we?

Caliden · 21-02-2019 5:15pm

Central ANPR system for Ireland is in the works between insurance companies, Gardai and revenue.

I think within the next 2 years (if not this year) we'll see it being rolled out. Your licence will be tied to your insurance which is tied to your car (tax) and Gardai will have access to all of that on a central database.

Will make it a lot more difficult for some people to drive uninsured when the ANPR in a Garda car is going off.

bazz26 · 21-02-2019 5:45pm

seamus wrote: »

We do have ANPR in Ireland, but your average Garda wandering down the road or standing at a checkpoint, doesn't.

The UK have seen motor tax evasion rates triple since they abolished the discs.

Tbh, any solution that involves pay a specific motor tax on your vehicle has flaws. SORN and ANPR do a good job of keeping honest people honest, but won't catch most evaders.

Abolishing motor tax and increasing the cost of fuel is the only way forward.

The problem with that is you open up other avenues of evasion which might defeat the purpose, ie people living in border counties popping over the border to fill up with cheaper fuel thus avoiding any motor tax payment. Sticking it on fuel in the south may also encourage large scale fuel laundering between the north and south as it become more lucrative.

L1011 · 21-02-2019 5:49pm

Caliden wrote: »

insurance which is tied to your car (tax)

This is going to require a structural change in how fleet policies work in Ireland; which is one of the reasons we don't have a full reg-to-insurance DB currently.

My employers fleet policy covers every vehicle owned by or leased by the company. The insurer doesn't have a full list, just an assurance its below a certain number, and that's the number of certs/disks they issue. Insurance certs have no regs on them.

I've never been asked to produce a cert by AGS, mainly because I don't drive them very often, but I presume I'd have to produce the letter I have from our fleet manager stating I'm on the policy as well as it certainly won't have my name on it!

CiniO · 21-02-2019 6:05pm

Problem in Ireland is that Insurance covers only certain drivers (normally insured person + named drivers) so any possible database gardai might have won't help.

Even if their ANPR database was working 100% (which it isn't at the moment AFAIR due to insurers not providing all details up to date), Gardai still wouldn't be able to tell purely by checking reg with ANPR if driver is insured or not.

In other words, ANPR might check reg number, check in database if car has insurance policy attached to it or not, but they can't check if person driving is actually covered by that policy or not.

This IMO makes the whole system pointless.

Del2005 · 21-02-2019 6:28pm

CiniO wrote: »

Problem in Ireland is that Insurance covers only certain drivers (normally insured person + named drivers) so any possible database gardai might have won't help.

Even if their ANPR database was working 100% (which it isn't at the moment AFAIR due to insurers not providing all details up to date), Gardai still wouldn't be able to tell purely by checking reg with ANPR if driver is insured or not.

In other words, ANPR might check reg number, check in database if car has insurance policy attached to it or not, but they can't check if person driving is actually covered by that policy or not.

This IMO makes the whole system pointless.

No system is fool proof and having an instant knowledge of whether a vehicle is insured or not is a start. Even the EU way of insuring the car still requires the police to check the person driving has a licence, so that's useless system also.

CiniO · 21-02-2019 6:37pm

Del2005 wrote: »

No system is fool proof and having an instant knowledge of whether a vehicle is insured or not is a start. Even the EU way of insuring the car still requires the police to check the person driving has a licence, so that's useless system also.

It's not useless.
Licence is separate thing. Insurance is separate.
Indeed to check if driver is licenced, currently police would need to pull over a car to check it and that's probably like that all over the world - no way around it.

But way it works with insurance on the Continent is way more efficient, where policy covers anyone to drive, and therefore police by checking ANPR on reg number can tell straight away if insurance policy is in place or not.
Most countries also require policy to be active at all times when car is registered (issued with number plates).
That way is way more effective than Irish (or UK) way.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 21-02-2019 6:41pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

We've already done that haven't we?

Jack Lynch 1977 general election.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 21-02-2019 6:43pm

CiniO wrote: »

Problem in Ireland is that Insurance covers only certain drivers

The new thing i've heard of lately is drivers blatantly driving around with home made discs/not legitimate and driving on, the attitude is if they crash 'the fund will cover it anyway'

And even with a court order the odds of recovering the money if their sole income is state benefits is virtually zero.

21-02-2019 6:44pm

CiniO wrote: »

It's not useless.
Licence is separate thing. Insurance is separate.
Indeed to check if driver is licenced, currently police would need to pull over a car to check it and that's probably like that all over the world - no way around it.

But way it works with insurance on the Continent is way more efficient, where policy covers anyone to drive, and therefore police by checking ANPR on reg number can tell straight away if insurance policy is in place or not.
Most countries also require policy to be active at all times when car is registered (issued with number plates).
That way is way more effective than Irish (or UK) way.

The problem with that is that is how insurance is dealt with here, one driver may be a significant risk and another not, or have traffic convictions or be banned, I dont really get how that a car just being insured works? it sounds great really as it sounds like theyre not getting gouged like we are here for that to be even considered, but seems there could be downsides, maybe if we had a less penal system for insurance it'd work here, I can see they might bring in the worst of the system (being insured all the time) and none of the benefits (any driver or reduced costs), there seems to be no political or business will to change anything though.

Crock Rock · 21-02-2019 6:45pm

I wouldn't trust the abolition of insurance discs here.

If someone crashes into you here all you need to see is the company the other person is insured with and their reg number so you can make a claim.

If there is no disc, you don't know whom to contact. The third party could lie about which company they're insured with. If you gave the bacon the reg and asked them to find out the insurance company, they'd just tell you it's a civil matter and wouldn't bother their hole helping you (like most Gardaí).

Poster banned for calling Gardai "bacon"

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 21-02-2019 6:46pm

seamus wrote: »

Abolishing motor tax and increasing the cost of fuel is the only way forward.

Bilking is already a problem in this country, that proposal would see it soar still further

Lord Nikon · 21-02-2019 6:54pm

Crock Rock wrote: »

I wouldn't trust the abolition of insurance discs here.

If someone crashes into you here all you need to see is the company the other person is insured with and their reg number so you can make a claim.

If there is no disc, you don't know whom to contact. The third party could lie about which company they're insured with. If you gave the bacon the reg and asked them to find out the insurance company, they'd just tell you it's a civil matter and wouldn't bother their hole helping you (like most Gardaí).

Ah, but if the driver hits you and drives off, do you have time take a photo or his insurance disc? If someone has a fake insurance disc that means nothing also. If the car is insured then all you need is the reg plate, and all cars are insured(on the continent) for the minimum insurance cover. Isn't insurance covered through tax on petrol/diesel?

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 21-02-2019 7:08pm

Lord Nikon wrote: »

Ah, but if the driver hits you and drives off, do you have time take a photo or his insurance disc?

This exact scenario happened to me in 2015. I got the registration number, Gardai did the rest.

CiniO · 21-02-2019 7:42pm

1874 wrote: »

The problem with that is that is how insurance is dealt with here, one driver may be a significant risk and another not, or have traffic convictions or be banned, I dont really get how that a car just being insured works? it sounds great really as it sounds like theyre not getting gouged like we are here for that to be even considered, but seems there could be downsides, maybe if we had a less penal system for insurance it'd work here, I can see they might bring in the worst of the system (being insured all the time) and none of the benefits (any driver or reduced costs), there seems to be no political or business will to change anything though.

I'm not sure exactly how it works country by country, but in Poland f.e. it's the vehicle owner who is responsible for obtaining insurance policy for his car and then it's his choice who he allows to drive his car.

So you're saying that in Ireland drivers considered higher risk will attract higher premium. (i.e. those with many penalty points, driving convictions, bad insurance record, etc). Insurers penalize them with high premiums, beaucse they need to be named on the policy.
In Poland insurers can't do that so throughly, as they might issue policy to vehicle owner who has very good driving/insurance record, but car can be driven by anyone, including drivers of high risk...

Well - the answer is that it's the vehicle owner who takes the risk of loosing his NCB and effectively sky rocketing his premium.

So f.e. I have a car here in Poland and have full NCB on it. I drive it safely and never caused an accident. Insures are happy with it and my premium is low.
But if I start allowing dangerous drivers to drive my car, and they'll crash, then I'll loose my NCB and my premium will go up a lot.
I wouldn't like that to happen, so I don't allow anyone risky to drive my car.

It's simple enough and it works.
Those who allow dangerous drivers to drive their cars which results in crashes and claims, will have their premiums much highers than those who don't.

Squidgy Black · 21-02-2019 7:57pm

CiniO wrote: »

Problem in Ireland is that Insurance covers only certain drivers (normally insured person + named drivers) so any possible database gardai might have won't help.

Even if their ANPR database was working 100% (which it isn't at the moment AFAIR due to insurers not providing all details up to date), Gardai still wouldn't be able to tell purely by checking reg with ANPR if driver is insured or not.

In other words, ANPR might check reg number, check in database if car has insurance policy attached to it or not, but they can't check if person driving is actually covered by that policy or not.

This IMO makes the whole system pointless.

It's the exact same in the UK, insured by driver. What regularly happens over there is the ANPR system flags it as say only a male in his 40s is insured to drive the car, and it's a female or a young male driving it.

Insuring by vehicle and not by driver would be great if it could be put into place, but there's no way in hell it'll happen over here, particularly considering the premiums we have to pay at the moment for young drivers etc

21-02-2019 8:02pm

Lord Nikon wrote: »

Is it required by law in England to produce proof of insurance/tax/MOT at a checkpoint,m

Checkpoints are illegal in the UK you can’t be stopped randomly like you are here, there has to be a reason. Proper order too.

punisher5112 · 21-02-2019 8:05pm

Ahmed Uptight Transportation wrote: »

Checkpoints are illegal in the UK you can’t be stopped randomly like you are here, there has to be a reason. Proper order too.

Do you mean the US?

Squidgy Black · 21-02-2019 8:10pm

Ahmed Uptight Transportation wrote: »

Checkpoints are illegal in the UK you can’t be stopped randomly like you are here, there has to be a reason. Proper order too.

You can't be stopped without probable cause, but a checkpoint is a completely different matter. There's plenty of checkpoints for drink driving across the UK.

It's the same in Ireland, the Garda can't pull you over without probable cause. But the definition of probable cause means they only have to suspect you of something that could be contravening a law or potentially committing an offence.

mickdw · 21-02-2019 8:11pm

It abit of a joke how they are allowed to drive around Ireland with a clear windscreen.
I think Ireland needs to tighten up that. Request that anyone using a UK car here has full prove of insurance, tax and mot in the car at all time.
I know there is this argument that if a car is road legal in its own country, it is road legal in any eu country. The difficulty is proving it here hence they must be made to carry full proof.
There is an english audi a6 driving around my town for about a year. I looked it up. Failed it's last mot on a list of things about 18 months ago so it's taken over here and driven around with no hassles.

21-02-2019 8:21pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Do you mean the US?

No the UK, it’s similar in the US though afaik.

BailMeOut · 21-02-2019 8:26pm

seamus wrote: »

Abolishing motor tax and increasing the cost of fuel is the only way forward.

Not possible unless NI did the same thing.

CiniO · 21-02-2019 8:36pm

mickdw wrote: »

It abit of a joke how they are allowed to drive around Ireland with a clear windscreen.

But same applies to car from any other country in Ireland (from Germany, Spain, Poland, etc...) There's normally nothing on a windscreen afaik.

I think Ireland needs to tighten up that. Request that anyone using a UK car here has full prove of insurance, tax and mot in the car at all time.
I know there is this argument that if a car is road legal in its own country, it is road legal in any eu country. The difficulty is proving it here hence they must be made to carry full proof.

All over EU, if person is driving a foreign registered vehicle, they need to carry registration cert + insurance cert.
This is very strictly controlled in most countries. F.e. I definitely wouldn't like to be pulled over or encounter a roadside check in Germany driving my Irish registered car and not carrying logbook and insurance cert.
I don't really know why this isn't enforced in Ireland, as surely it could have been if gards wanted to do it.

Roadworthiness cert like NCT or MOT or TUV is bit different matter, as I don't think there are any EU wide regulations for verifying those on foreign cars. There definitely should be though.
Local road/motortax is normally only required in country where car is registered, so it's none of interest of foreign authorities on foreign registered car. (like you're never going to be asked for valid motortax on Irish registered car driven in Germany)

punisher5112 · 21-02-2019 8:45pm

Ahmed Uptight Transportation wrote: »

No the UK, it’s similar in the US though afaik.

UK they do checkpoints though.....

In the US each state has different rules and laws.

In the US in most cases they need a reason from not indicating to not stopping or faulty lights etc etc etc.

21-02-2019 8:48pm

1874 wrote: »

The problem with that is that is how insurance is dealt with here, one driver may be a significant risk and another not, or have traffic convictions or be banned, I dont really get how that a car just being insured works? .

The thing is some of what you are concerned about is already possible here as while on the face of it our system works as you said loading based on the person not the car etc there are loads of instance where it all goes out the window (I don’t mean I disagree with it, I think our system is stupid and we are being made fools of by insurance companies I’d much prefer a system like other eu counties or better again Austria where 3rd part instance is dirty cheap and comes with the tax).

As an example I can use my driving other cars to drive anything I want pretty much, I don’t have any restrictions on value or engine size. Then you have open drive, with isn’t far off the Europen system burried in our system. Ok it’s restricted to over 25’s but other than that anyone with a license can drive your car regardless of what it is once they have an eu license (again I see this as a good thing) but to use your example they could have no experience and drive any car no matter how powerful that has an open drive, they could have multiple previous convictions, they could have claims pending etc etc.

Another is the spouse always covered on your policy. I know of a married couple where the wife can’t get a reasonable quote for a bike due to a history of multiple crashes and claims yet can drive the husbands very expensive and very powerful car no questions asked. Again of course a spouse should be automatically covered my overall point is that the concerns you expressed aren’t exclusive to the eu system.

Atlantic Dawn · 21-02-2019 8:54pm

ANPR should be introduced across the country, any car spotted with no insurance showing should result in a ticket similar to a speeding ticket where the owner of the car has to declare what insurance policy covered the car at that time.

punisher5112 · 21-02-2019 9:04pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

ANPR should be introduced across the country, any car spotted with no insurance showing should result in a ticket similar to a speeding ticket where the owner of the car has to declare what insurance policy covered the car at that time.

They had it running back a few years ago and it would show 500,000 as uninsured many even had cars taken that were insured so they stopped relying on it fully but use it for tax, NCT and markers such as theft or drugs.

Hyundai i30 can't fit the equipment so the only cars that have it were Focus, Mondeo, Vectra, Insignia, BMW 530d, Hyundai i40 and so on.

Windscreen discs on UK motors.

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