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Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    A crooked feed is one deliberately into the second row. If it goes in the channel and is hooked properly no problem. People have a bee in their bonnet if a ball is fed in a few degrees off plumb

    That happens at almost every scrum in fairness, and it's typically more than a few degrees.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    That happens at almost every scrum in fairness, and it's typically more than a few degrees.

    And so you think if it was significant the captain's would be bringing it to the refs attention?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    But if you penalize all infringements of the law you have too many penalties and that will hurt viewing numbers/attracting beginners etc.
    One of the main laws a referee can use is advantage and thats used a lot. All offences are penalized depending on context within the game/timing etc

    I think you would encourage teams to play a cleaner game, If they know they will be called for transgressions, they make an effort to avoid doing so. It happens right now when refs make an effort to call particular things early in games. The match against Wales in the 6 nations this year as an example, Barnes made a point of pinging us for being on the wrong side of rucks. The issue later in the game was when he stopped calling players for doing so and became inconsistent after it had cost Ireland significant points.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    And so you think if it was significant the captain's would be bringing it to the refs attention?

    Seeing as both teams do so, I doubt he'd look to highlight themselves. However, when one teams gets called for it, you can bet they point it out to the ref if the other teams gets away with it. As happened against Wales this year with the final scrum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    I think you would encourage teams to play a cleaner game, If they know they will be called for transgressions, they make an effort to avoid doing so. It happens right now when refs make an effort to call particular things early in games. The match against Wales in the 6 nations this year as an example, Barnes made a point of pinging us for being on the wrong side of rucks. The issue later in the game was when he stopped calling players for doing so and became inconsistent after it had cost Ireland significant points.
    A "cleaner game" :rolleyes:
    The sport has 22 laws and multiples of transgressions within each law. You are looking for the impossible and yes referees will be stricter at the start. Thats simple game management


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Why is that impossible? Other, equally complicated sports manage it. Calling inconsistency "game management" is simply making excuses for poor performance. Barnes blew Ireland off the park in the first half against Wales, setting a tone for the match, and then more or less ignored similar acts in the second half. That's not something that should be lauded.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,986 ✭✭✭philstar


    regards tommy bowe's try.....if a player hits a corner flag is he deemed out??


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    philstar wrote: »
    regards tommy bowe's try.....if a player hits a corner flag is he deemed out??

    No, that hasn't been a rule for years now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Why is that impossible? Other, equally complicated sports manage it. Calling inconsistency "game management" is simply making excuses for poor performance. Barnes blew Ireland off the park in the first half against Wales, setting a tone for the match, and then more or less ignored similar acts in the second half. That's not something that should be lauded.
    Its not possible. Im not making any excuses for poor refereeing performances.
    You don't penalize all offences or the sport suffers. The advantage law is key to the game as is penalizing only those offences which are material. You will referee games slightly differently depending on context/what has occurred etc. Nothing wrong with that
    philstar wrote: »
    regards tommy bowe's try.....if a player hits a corner flag is he deemed out??
    No. Corner flag is part of the field of played and so play on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Its not possible. Im not making any excuses for poor refereeing performances.
    You don't penalize all offences or the sport suffers. The advantage law is key to the game as is penalizing only those offences which are material. You will referee games slightly differently depending on context/what has occurred etc. Nothing wrong with that

    No. Corner flag is part of the field of played and so play on.

    I've no issue with refs playing advantage, like you said it helps the game to flow. I've issue with the calls that the ref doesn't see because there are too many things happening at once for him to track fully.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    I've no issue with refs playing advantage, like you said it helps the game to flow. I've issue with the calls that the ref doesn't see because there are too many things happening at once for him to track fully.
    If you are looking for a game where the officials see everything illegal/against the spirit of the game you will never be happy as that will never ever occur. Even with the 3 officials as well as the TMO things will go unsighted and I have absolutely no problem with that


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,587 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Can I ask the definition of a knock on? Does the ball have to hit the ground to be a knock on? i.e. if a player knocks it forward but then catches it before it hits the ground is that considered a knock on or not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Can I ask the definition of a knock on? Does the ball have to hit the ground to be a knock on? i.e. if a player knocks it forward but then catches it before it hits the ground is that considered a knock on or not?

    From my guide:

    A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball forwards, or it strikes their hand or arm and goes forward and touches the ground or another player. The original player can re-collect the ball [before it touches the ground or the other player] and it will not be a knock-on, nor will any contact made when charging down an opposition kick be counted as a knock-on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,587 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Thanks, thats what I was thinking myself. So then in theory would it be possible for a player to palm/fist a ball that has been passed to him high into the air and in a forward direction and then run forward to catch his 'pass'. I know it sounds a bit bizarre, but is it technically within the laws of rugby?


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Thanks, thats what I was thinking myself. So then in theory would it be possible for a player to palm/fist a ball that has been passed to him high into the air and in a forward direction and then run forward to catch his 'pass'. I know it sounds a bit bizarre, but is it technically within the laws of rugby?

    often happens that a "palmed" forward pass is caught.... see BODs famous intercept from ROGs pass

    it wouldnt be common to try to fist it as
    (1) the ball is not round therefore it could bounce anywhere off a fist
    (2) much more likely to be considered a deliberate knock on and you run the risk then of being yellow carded


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Can I ask the definition of a knock on? Does the ball have to hit the ground to be a knock on? i.e. if a player knocks it forward but then catches it before it hits the ground is that considered a knock on or not?
    A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
    ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,986 ✭✭✭philstar


    why don't most players take a quick line out to themselves

    isn't it better than having the opposition lined out and organised ready for attack??


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    philstar wrote: »
    why don't most players take a quick line out to themselves

    isn't it better than having the opposition lined out and organised ready for attack??
    Because it can be quite risky and you risk a turnover and more chance of losing possession.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    If you are looking for a game where the officials see everything illegal/against the spirit of the game you will never be happy as that will never ever occur. Even with the 3 officials as well as the TMO things will go unsighted and I have absolutely no problem with that

    Fair enough if you are content with that. Personally, I think there a lot of areas that could improved upon with respect to refereeing, which would serve to improve the game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Fair enough if you are content with that. Personally, I think there a lot of areas that could improved upon with respect to refereeing, which would serve to improve the game.

    I don't think anyone strongly disagrees with that - just the notion that adding more refs is the solution.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Fair enough if you are content with that. Personally, I think there a lot of areas that could improved upon with respect to refereeing, which would serve to improve the game.

    at the elite level the game is referred to an extermely high standard

    if you dont want to see a raft of broken laws go unpunished, dont ever go to an amateur game

    a referee can only ref it from what they see


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Fair enough if you are content with that. Personally, I think there a lot of areas that could improved upon with respect to refereeing, which would serve to improve the game.
    Im just speaking from experience of refereeing/coaching/playing. Of course there is areas for improvement. There always will be. But this post of yours is what I have issue with
    I've issue with the calls that the ref doesn't see because there are too many things happening at once for him to track fully.
    The referee just will not see everything. His team of officials will not see everything. The referee and his other officials, at top level of the game the assistants can call all play to the referees attention and what isn't called in general is deemed fine or just ignored


  • Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭odyboody


    Lads I know the ref can tell the scrum half to "use it" when a maul has stopped going forward for the 2nd time.
    Its only recently I have noticed the ref saying use it at the back of a scrum. What is the rule around this, I thought the 8 could hold the ball between is feet and advance the scrum. As this is starting from a stationary position it cant be deemed to have come to a stop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    odyboody wrote: »
    Lads I know the ref can tell the scrum half to "use it" when a maul has stopped going forward for the 2nd time.
    Its only recently I have noticed the ref saying use it at the back of a scrum. What is the rule around this, I thought the 8 could hold the ball between is feet and advance the scrum. As this is starting from a stationary position it cant be deemed to have come to a stop.

    Could be that the referee is using the ruck laws for this? http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=16.7&language=EN


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    odyboody wrote: »
    Lads I know the ref can tell the scrum half to "use it" when a maul has stopped going forward for the 2nd time.
    Its only recently I have noticed the ref saying use it at the back of a scrum. What is the rule around this, I thought the 8 could hold the ball between is feet and advance the scrum. As this is starting from a stationary position it cant be deemed to have come to a stop.

    rugby law 20.4 (f)

    When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

    so the "use it" call is a warning to the team in possession.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Fair enough if you are content with that. Personally, I think there a lot of areas that could improved upon with respect to refereeing, which would serve to improve the game.
    I am quite content with it based on my involvement in the game
    Of course there is areas of improvement. That is why you will see World Rugby constantly updating the laws of the game. There will be notifications/clarifications on specific areas throughout the world cup and there is going to be big law trials coming into operation at different levels and world wide over the next season or two
    odyboody wrote: »
    Lads I know the ref can tell the scrum half to "use it" when a maul has stopped going forward for the 2nd time.
    Its only recently I have noticed the ref saying use it at the back of a scrum. What is the rule around this, I thought the 8 could hold the ball between is feet and advance the scrum. As this is starting from a stationary position it cant be deemed to have come to a stop.
    This has been allowed if the scrum has come to a stop and to speed the game. If the scrum is stationary and ball does not emerge immediately the laws state another scrum must take place and the
    When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage. The referee saying use it is to stop this from occurring. Preventative refereeing which is a good sign....


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I think having additional tasks for the Assistant Refs or even additional refs on the field would be an opportunity to improve the game significantly. Take the scrum for example. Having dedicated assistance to the ref, with clear guideline on what to look for and able to give feedback to head ref, would be very helpful. How many times a game to you see a ref give a scrum penalty for dubious or incorrect reasons? Certain elite refs have made careers out of that. What downside do you see in having such an option?

    Assistant refs already alert the ref to illegal play on the field if they see, usually relating to foul play or interference with players fielding kicks. WR could stand to give more direct tasking to them to police the defensive offside line, blindside of scrums etc (and maybe they have and I'm ignorant of that).

    WR seems eager to fiddle with the laws to try and engender a more pleasing spectacle, rather than work having refs enforce existing rules more effectively.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    I think having additional tasks for the Assistant Refs or even additional refs on the field would be an opportunity to improve the game significantly. Take the scrum for example. Having dedicated assistance to the ref, with clear guideline on what to look for and able to give feedback to head ref, would be very helpful. How many times a game to you see a ref give a scrum penalty for dubious or incorrect reasons? Certain elite refs have made careers out of that. What downside do you see in having such an option?

    Assistant refs already alert the ref to illegal play on the field if they see, usually relating to foul play or interference with players fielding kicks. WR could stand to give more direct tasking to them to police the defensive offside line, blindside of scrums etc (and maybe they have and I'm ignorant of that).

    WR seems eager to fiddle with the laws to try and engender a more pleasing spectacle, rather than work having refs enforce existing rules more effectively.
    You don't need a dedicated assistant referee for the scrum. At scrum time the referee will be on the putting in side and one assistant will be on centre line of scrum at other side watching feed etc while the other AR is watching the opposition backline for offside. We already have 6 officials plus a citing commissioner at games we don't need any more.
    You are just opening things up for more confusion and frustration amongst players with different referees coming in
    Assistant referees at pro level already police defensive offside line/blindside of scrum. World Rugby are and always have been working on referees(at all levels elite or otherwise) improving at the existing laws and implementing them more effectively.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    sydthebeat wrote: »

    if you dont want to see a raft of broken laws go unpunished, dont ever go to an amateur game

    Not when I'm in charge :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    rugby law 20.4 (f)

    When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

    so the "use it" call is a warning to the team in possession.

    This came up at the ARLB annual seminar as something to be the done thing for the new season. It's not really an issue in the junior game as quick ball is expected so it's only at the senior level that it will be noticed.


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