Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

1235723

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    You don't need a dedicated assistant referee for the scrum. At scrum time the referee will be on the putting in side and one assistant will be on centre line of scrum at other side watching feed etc while the other AR is watching the opposition backline for offside. We already have 6 officials plus a citing commissioner at games we don't need any more.
    You are just opening things up for more confusion and frustration amongst players with different referees coming in
    Assistant referees at pro level already police defensive offside line/blindside of scrum. World Rugby are and always have been working on referees(at all levels elite or otherwise) improving at the existing laws and implementing them more effectively.

    Your argument would hold more weight if it weren't for the repeated spectacle of cheating at scrums, scrum collapses and all the rest, that occurs in every game. Most refs do not do a good job reffing the scrum, the constant failure to ensure a straight feed being the most glaring example of that. A raft of articles out after this weekends games highlighting the refs failure to recognise teams cheating at the scrum and to take the appropraite action.

    The current system is clearly not sufficient, why you are so resistant to the idea of trying something new in place of a set that is not working is a strange one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Your argument would hold more weight if it weren't for the repeated spectacle of cheating at scrums, scrum collapses and all the rest, that occurs in every game. Most refs do not do a good job reffing the scrum, the constant failure to ensure a straight feed being the most glaring example of that. A raft of articles out after this weekends games highlighting the refs failure to recognise teams cheating at the scrum and to take the appropraite action.

    The current system is clearly not sufficient, why you are so resistant to the idea of trying something new in place of a set that is not working is a strange one.
    There will be "cheating" at the scrum regardless of if there is 3 officials as is currently the case or any more than that looking at aspects of the game. Where do you propose these officials to go in the game?
    You say extra assistant referees on the pitch? Where do they go - stand during game? What will be each ARs role? Does 1 guy do touch and the other ....
    Your proposal is not feasible and the system is working. There will always be complaints. The referees see an incident once in real time and judge based on that. They can go to the video for some incidents but we already have games that are going on for ridiculously long time frames due to TMO stops etc. Do we really need to be extending the number of stoppages???


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Your argument would hold more weight if it weren't for the repeated spectacle of cheating at scrums, scrum collapses and all the rest, that occurs in every game. .

    the work done around the scrum has been great in the last few years.
    the current scrum sequence of ‘crouch, bind, set’ has reduced front row injuries by 50% by ‘reducing forces on engagement by 25 per cent’,

    and more changes to be trialed
    In the crouch position ‘front rows will be shoulder to shoulder with their opponents, stable and supporting their own weight without pushing’. Upon the bind call being made by the referee, ‘props will position their arms in the correct ‘bind’ position. The front rows (+ back 5 players) will tighten binds and set themselves for the throw-in’.

    Defending teams will also be discouraged from wheeling the scrum by awarding the attacking team with a new scrum if wheeling does occur. In a situation where a team is unable to supply front row cover due to in game injuries or suffer a sending off, each team will have to commit to involving eight players in uncontested scrums. This differs from the current law, where it is possible to have uncontested scrums involving less than the sixteen players required.

    from here
    http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/world-rugby-to-trial-new-laws/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Neil Treacy has an article in the 42 on problems with the scrum; specifically boring in by the loose head.

    Joe Marler is singled out, but there are others as well.

    ?width=630&version=2357728


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    There will be "cheating" at the scrum regardless of if there is 3 officials as is currently the case or any more than that looking at aspects of the game. Where do you propose these officials to go in the game?
    You say extra assistant referees on the pitch? Where do they go - stand during game? What will be each ARs role? Does 1 guy do touch and the other ....
    Your proposal is not feasible and the system is working. There will always be complaints. The referees see an incident once in real time and judge based on that. They can go to the video for some incidents but we already have games that are going on for ridiculously long time frames due to TMO stops etc. Do we really need to be extending the number of stoppages???

    An assistant ref could police the blindside, watching the binds, angle of the scrum etc.

    Your argument against trying to improve reffing in the game is that it is too much work to figure out where an extra ref might stand on the field?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    the work done around the scrum has been great in the last few years.



    and more changes to be trialed



    from here
    http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/world-rugby-to-trial-new-laws/

    There has been an improvement certainly, but it is far from ideal. The scrum is still a mess, teams get away a rake of messing at scrum time and refs aren't even following the dictates put out by WR with respect to things like early pushing and feeding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    An assistant ref could police the blindside, watching the binds, angle of the scrum etc.

    Your argument against trying to improve reffing in the game is that it is too much work to figure out where an extra ref might stand on the field?
    Assistant referees already do all the above. They make calls and as they are mic'd up they inform referee and the infringing side are penalised in games. You are looking for things that already occur


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    There has been an improvement certainly, but it is far from ideal. The scrum is still a mess, teams get away a rake of messing at scrum time and refs aren't even following the dictates put out by WR with respect to things like early pushing and feeding.

    of course they are... that hyperbole rubbish


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    To the OP its well done diagram.
    My 2 cents would be to add something about advantage (scrum vs penalty) and maybe mention the 5m lines for scrums


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    of course they are... that hyperbole rubbish

    Really? Go pull up one of the recent world cup games and count how many times they pinged a team for a crooked feed.

    Assistant refs are not effective at helping refs deal with the scrum. If they were, you would see team getting pinged correctly for boring in etc. You are living in denial if you are claiming that the scrum and offside are being policed effectively at the moment on a consistent basis.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 23,532 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Really? Go pull up one of the recent world cup games and count how many times they pinged a team for a crooked feed.

    Assistant refs are not effective at helping refs deal with the scrum. If they were, you would see team getting pinged correctly for boring in etc. You are living in denial if you are claiming that the scrum and offside are being policed effectively at the moment on a consistent basis.

    There's a fair amount of truth in this.

    It's seldom enough you see the AR get involved in calling a foul at scrum time. It's an absolute rarity for the ref or AR to call a crooked feed at scrum time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,894 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Really? Go pull up one of the recent world cup games and count how many times they pinged a team for a crooked feed.

    Assistant refs are not effective at helping refs deal with the scrum. If they were, you would see team getting pinged correctly for boring in etc. You are living in denial if you are claiming that the scrum and offside are being policed effectively at the moment on a consistent basis.


    Given that the referee is closer to the scrum than other officials, they are in by far the best position to make the call on a feed than any other match official.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,532 ✭✭✭✭phog


    You don't need a dedicated assistant referee for the scrum. At scrum time the referee will be on the putting in side and one assistant will be on centre line of scrum at other side watching feed etc while the other AR is watching the opposition backline for offside. We already have 6 officials plus a citing commissioner at games we don't need any more.
    You are just opening things up for more confusion and frustration amongst players with different referees coming in
    Assistant referees at pro level already police defensive offside line/blindside of scrum. World Rugby are and always have been working on referees(at all levels elite or otherwise) improving at the existing laws and implementing them more effectively.
    Given that the referee is closer to the scrum than other officials, they are in by far the best position to make the call on a feed than any other match official.

    I think AT was going on what TLS said about what one of the ARs do at scrum time


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,720 ✭✭✭degsie


    phog wrote: »
    I think AT was going on what TLS said about what one of the ARs do at scrum time

    Acronym much?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Really? Go pull up one of the recent world cup games and count how many times they pinged a team for a crooked feed.

    Assistant refs are not effective at helping refs deal with the scrum. If they were, you would see team getting pinged correctly for boring in etc. You are living in denial if you are claiming that the scrum and offside are being policed effectively at the moment on a consistent basis.
    How do you know assistants are not effective? They are micced to the referee and make calls a lot but you just wont see that they'll have made the caslls.
    Offside is certainly policed effectively and scrum is doing ok but varies amongst some referees.
    phog wrote: »
    There's a fair amount of truth in this.

    It's seldom enough you see the AR get involved in calling a foul at scrum time. It's an absolute rarity for the ref or AR to call a crooked feed at scrum time.
    How do you know its "seldom enough" the AR gets involved? They are regularly calling on the ref mic about infringements that are clear and obvious


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,532 ✭✭✭✭phog


    How do you know assistants are not effective? They are micced to the referee and make calls a lot but you just wont see that they'll have made the caslls.
    Offside is certainly policed effectively and scrum is doing ok but varies amongst some referees.

    It's not really, all teams are guilty of being offside especially at rucks but some of the backs creep up at scrum & lineout time too.
    How do you know its "seldom enough" the AR gets involved? They are regularly calling on the ref mic about infringements that are clear and obvious

    I can see with my own two eyes on ineffective they are.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    phog wrote: »
    There's a fair amount of truth in this.

    It's seldom enough you see the AR get involved in calling a foul at scrum time. It's an absolute rarity for the ref or AR to call a crooked feed at scrum time.


    i dont agree at all.

    i pretty much say ALL the penalties given for laws broken on the opposite side of a scrum to where the ref is, are called by the AR


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    phog wrote: »
    It's not really, all teams are guilty of being offside especially at rucks but some of the backs creep up at scrum & lineout time too.
    It is. It is all about how material the infringement is. If teams are creeping especially outwide and it is of no real effect then why pull it? You don't pull everything you see to award a penalty/advantage or the teams become frustrated etc that's basic game management.
    I can see with my own two eyes on ineffective they are.
    The AR's are constantly on the mic making calls. You mightn't see it but they are....


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,532 ✭✭✭✭phog


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    i dont agree at all.

    i pretty much say ALL the penalties given for laws broken on the opposite side of a scrum to where the ref is, are called by the AR

    and what about the ones that are not called or the crooked feeds? How many scrums are penalised for a crooked feed?
    It is. It is all about how material the infringement is. If teams are creeping especially outwide and it is of no real effect then why pull it? You don't pull everything you see to award a penalty/advantage or the teams become frustrated etc that's basic game management.

    The AR's are constantly on the mic making calls. You mightn't see it but they are....

    I'm well aware that the ARs have mics and make some call but if the offside isn't being penalised then it's safe to assume that the AR hasn't done their job or are you implying that the AR tells the ref and the ref ignores him?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    phog wrote: »
    and what about the ones that are not called or the crooked feeds? How many scrums are penalised for a crooked feed?
    Should every thing that breaks the law be called up and penalised? IMO NO. Only those that are clearly crooked will be penalised..
    I'm well aware that the ARs have mics and make some call but if the offside isn't being penalised then it's safe to assume that the AR hasn't done their job or are you implying that the AR tells the ref and the ref ignores him?
    Not all should be penalised. Im saying sometimes the ref will decide not to use the info an AR gives. Soemtimes they may be off but it may not be material so therefore nothing is done by the referee.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 23,532 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Should every thing that breaks the law be called up and penalised? IMO NO. Only those that are clearly crooked will be penalised..

    Well obviously, I'm referring to those that are clearly crooked, how else are they picked up by the fans or TV audiences.
    Not all should be penalised. Im saying sometimes the ref will decide not to use the info an AR gives. Soemtimes they may be off but it may not be material so therefore nothing is done by the referee

    TBH, that's a cop out. There are loads of examples where the offside law isn't being reffed and I'm not talking about the guy at the other side of the field away from the ball.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    phog wrote: »
    Well obviously, I'm referring to those that are clearly crooked, how else are they picked up by the fans or TV audiences.
    .

    wow, is that peer reviewed data?
    phog wrote: »
    TBH, that's a cop out. There are loads of examples where the offside law isn't being reffed and I'm not talking about the guy at the other side of the field away from the ball.

    again.... quantify "loads" in comparison to the ones which are actually called please.

    Billy Joe in the pub will scream offside at anything


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    ^^ Rugby newbies - this last page is what it looks like when you become Level 50 Advanced Spectators and have too much time on your hands...


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    phog wrote: »
    Well obviously, I'm referring to those that are clearly crooked, how else are they picked up by the fans or TV audiences.
    What is clearly crooked though? Unless its thrown to second rows feet and is someway down the channel the put ins are let go.
    TBH, that's a cop out. There are loads of examples where the offside law isn't being reffed and I'm not talking about the guy at the other side of the field away from the ball.
    It isn't a cop out at all. If the infringement is material call it otherwise don't unless you want to prevent the sides always doing it. If referees are to blow the whistle for every offence they see then people get frustrated and more serious sanctions can come on the radar.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    MJohnston wrote: »
    ^^ Rugby newbies - this last page is what it looks like when you become Level 50 Advanced Spectators and have too much time on your hands...

    or level 1 game player ......


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,645 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    MJohnston wrote: »
    ^^ Rugby newbies - this last page is what it looks like when you become Level 50 Advanced Spectators and have too much time on your hands...

    I'd say any newbies are long gone at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,532 ✭✭✭✭phog


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    wow, is that peer reviewed data?



    again.... quantify "loads" in comparison to the ones which are actually called please.

    Billy Joe in the pub will scream offside at anything

    Perhaps the guys you attend games with don't understand the laws but most of the people I'd be watching games with are fairly knowledgeable on the laws particularly the offside and certainly can spot a crooked feed.
    What is clearly crooked though? Unless its thrown to second rows feet and is someway down the channel the put ins are let go.

    It isn't a cop out at all. If the infringement is material call it otherwise don't unless you want to prevent the sides always doing it. If referees are to blow the whistle for every offence they see then people get frustrated and more serious sanctions can come on the radar.

    Obviously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    phog wrote: »
    Obviously.
    Ah come on phog surely you can come up with better than that? What is clearly crooked? Obviously crooked?

    The laws state "A scrum is formed in the field of play when eight players from each team, bound together in three rows for each team, close up with their opponents so that the heads of the front rows are interlocked. This creates a tunnel into which a scrum half throws the ball so that front row players can compete for possession by hooking the ball with either of their feet." and "The tunnel is the space between the two front rows."
    Under the laws as they are currently written a ball that is anywhere in front of the feet of both front rows is straight


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,532 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Ah come on phog surely you can come up with better than that? What is clearly crooked? Obviously crooked?

    The laws state "A scrum is formed in the field of play when eight players from each team, bound together in three rows for each team, close up with their opponents so that the heads of the front rows are interlocked. This creates a tunnel into which a scrum half throws the ball so that front row players can compete for possession by hooking the ball with either of their feet." and "The tunnel is the space between the two front rows."
    Under the laws as they are currently written a ball that is anywhere in front of the feet of both front rows is straight

    Yes, I aware of that but watch some of the feeds and see how often they're penalised if fed in crooked.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Okay guys, there's a rugby laws thread for this sort of discussion. Can we keep this thread for the simple rugby questions and new poster queries.


Advertisement