Engagement rings

smash · 10-08-2016 5:05pm

seamus wrote: »

While one can argue that diamond prices are controlled by DeBeers, they still are what they are so an engagement ring can be considered an investment in an asset.

If you try and resell a diamond you'll get nowhere near what you paid for it unless you hold on to it for a very long time and hope the industry doesn't collapse. It's a bad investment.

BrokenArrows · 10-08-2016 5:05pm

how can any woman even walk around wearing that much money on her finger. I mean seriously. Wouldnt they be seriously paranoid?

As previous posters have mentioned it would be different if the ring might maintain its value, but as soon as you buy it you can probably knock off 50% of the value. The obvious reason is that women don't want to own a second hand ring and that diamonds are essentially worthless in the first place.

andekwarhola · 10-08-2016 5:07pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

how can any woman even walk around wearing that much money on her finger. I mean seriously. Wouldnt they be seriously paranoid?

You may as well apply that thinking to driving around in a car you paid for.

10-08-2016 5:08pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

how can any woman even walk around wearing that much money on her finger. I mean seriously. Wouldnt they be seriously paranoid?

I have a pair of earrings that cost maybe €150 and I'm terrified every second that I'm wearing them. If someone spent that much on a ring for me I'd be annoyed and confused because they've obviously never met me because if they did they know I lose everything

ScumLord · 10-08-2016 5:11pm

smash wrote: »

If you try and resell a diamond you'll get nowhere near what you paid for it unless you hold on to it for a very long time and hope the industry doesn't collapse. It's a bad investment.

Would holding onto the diamond ad value? If it was in some important jewelry piece I could maybe see it but on its own I don't see how? They're constantly adding diamonds to the market so in a few years time it will be in a more saturated market. If things keep going that way the market is eventually going to become somewhat saturated no matter what De Beers do. Unless De Beers buy up second hand diamonds and destroy them.

valoren · 10-08-2016 5:15pm

How about a new tradition?

If a man feels compelled to buy a bit of carbon for what is essentially a symbolic gesture, how about he get's a wrist watch bought for him in return.
My guess is that you wouldn't see many married lads walking around sporting a Rolex if that was the case.

For me, if I was marrying a woman who wanted a ring beyond my budget "It has to be a Tiffany solitaire in the blue box....I want to make my friends jealous", then I would seriously question my judgement in choosing a spouse.
For a woman, alternatively, if a man spends in this case 8k on a ring, then she should question his financial clout as a provider.
"Would it not be better that he put the 8k into an investment fund until the kids go to college??" for example.

I am assuming that the above scenarios relate to those who are not millionaires, who can afford 8k rings at the swipe of a card obviously.

Dravokivich · 10-08-2016 5:15pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

You may as well apply that thinking to driving around in a car you paid for.

What are you on about?

andekwarhola · 10-08-2016 5:17pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

What are you on about?

You may as well apply that thinking to driving around in a car you paid for.

davo2001 · 10-08-2016 5:22pm

ScumLord wrote: »

It's a highly inflated market, De Beers could flood the market the next day and make diamonds virtually worthless.

You could say the same about any commodity, gold, oil etc.

smash · 10-08-2016 5:25pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Would holding onto the diamond ad value? If it was in some important jewelry piece I could maybe see it but on its own I don't see how? They're constantly adding diamonds to the market so in a few years time it will be in a more saturated market. If things keep going that way the market is eventually going to become somewhat saturated no matter what De Beers do. Unless De Beers buy up second hand diamonds and destroy them.

I'm not sure, it would rise in value as long as the market didn't collapse but that's only based on inflation and then of course you're only going to get a wholesale price really. So they're a bad investment.

eeguy · 10-08-2016 5:27pm

smash wrote: »

I'm not sure, it would rise in value as long as the market didn't collapse but that's only based on inflation and then of course you're only going to get a wholesale price really. So they're a bad investment.

They're a terrible investment.

It's like investing in gold by buying rings in a jewellers.

The materials will hold their value, but the form and design are worthless, plus you're paying a huge mark-up to the retailer.

woodchuck · 10-08-2016 5:27pm

Smondie wrote: »

Not really. The reason for break up has nothing to do with the ring. Same as no fault divorce we have here. He might need it for his new lady, having spent all him money (or got in debt ) to buy it.

Aside from it being very poor form, I'd wonder about the legality. It's a gift... I don't think anyone has the right to demand a gift back?

ScumLord · 10-08-2016 5:28pm

davo2001 wrote: »

You could say the same about any commodity, gold, oil etc.

Not really, there is a very limited amount of available gold. Unless we start drilling into the earth's core there's a hard limit on the amount of gold that can be produced each year. Same for oil, we're more than likely in the midst of an oil crisis and it's a limit that's even harder than gold, worst case scenario if we can't find any more gold on earth and we need some, we can find more in our solar system. If we run out of oil it's highly unlikely we'll find any more in this solar system. When it's gone, it's gone.

If we run out of diamonds we can make more.

smash · 10-08-2016 5:29pm

woodchuck wrote: »

Aside from it being very poor form, I'd wonder about the legality. It's a gift... I don't think anyone has the right to demand a gift back?

Is it a gift? It's a proposal of intent. A deposit if you will. If the deal falls through then shouldn't you get your deposit back?

valoren · 10-08-2016 5:32pm

Just took a look.

Go back 10 years. Someone wants to spend $8000 on a Tiffany diamond ring which is now worth a fraction of what was paid.

Instead the fiancee says, i don't want a ring but invest it in Tiffany shares instead.

The 8 grand would be worth 16 grand now. Or 19 grand if the dividends were reinvested.

You would now have 311 shares and they would be paying you almost $140 every 3 months. (current dividend is 45 cent)

That's diamond investing.

Not sure how much that 8k ring would be worth today but it wouldn't be paying you money every 3 months that's for sure.

Smondie · 10-08-2016 5:34pm

woodchuck wrote: »

Aside from it being very poor form, I'd wonder about the legality. It's a gift... I don't think anyone has the right to demand a gift back?

Gifts between an engaged couple
When 2 people who are engaged give gifts (including an engagement ring) to each other, there is a presumption that they are given on the condition that the gifts will be returned (if requested to), should the engagement end. If one of the engaged couple dies, however, it is presumed the gifts the deceased gave were given without any conditions. So, the surviving fiancé(e) can keep the gifts. It is possible to contest either of these presumptions in court if there is evidence to the contrary.

These presumptions only apply to gifts given during the engagement and does not apply to gifts given before or after the engagement.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/legal_implications_of_a_broken_engagement.html

smash · 10-08-2016 5:35pm

valoren wrote: »

Just took a look.

Go back 10 years. Someone wants to spend $8000 on a Tiffany diamond ring which is now worth a fraction of what was paid.

Instead the fiancee says, i don't want a ring but invest it in Tiffany shares instead.

The 8 grand would be worth 16 grand now. Or 19 grand if the dividends were reinvested.

You would now have 311 shares and they would be paying you almost $140 every 3 months. (current dividend is 45 cent).

That's diamond investing.

Not sure how much that 8k ring would be worth today.

Will you marry me?

*gets on one knee holding an envelope with a printed a4 sheet containing share option details.

ScumLord · 10-08-2016 5:35pm

I actually just remembered an article I read in the likes of Focus that says that artificial diamond production could become so cost effective that we'll start making household items out of it. Once that happens diamonds won't be worth a thing. If you're token of love looks like a broken bit of the kettle it won't hold the same value.

woodchuck · 10-08-2016 5:44pm

Smondie wrote: »

Gifts between an engaged couple
When 2 people who are engaged give gifts (including an engagement ring) to each other, there is a presumption that they are given on the condition that the gifts will be returned (if requested to), should the engagement end. If one of the engaged couple dies, however, it is presumed the gifts the deceased gave were given without any conditions. So, the surviving fiancé(e) can keep the gifts. It is possible to contest either of these presumptions in court if there is evidence to the contrary.

These presumptions only apply to gifts given during the engagement and does not apply to gifts given before or after the engagement.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/legal_implications_of_a_broken_engagement.html

Interesting, thanks! I wonder if things get messy though if infidelity takes place.

Maximus Alexander · 10-08-2016 5:45pm

woodchuck wrote: »

Aside from it being very poor form, I'd wonder about the legality. It's a gift... I don't think anyone has the right to demand a gift back?

There are specific rules about gifts between engaged couples in the event of a broken engagement.

Edit: D'oh, didn't see it posted above.

RoboRat · 10-08-2016 5:45pm

Ask her to show you the type of engagement ring she wants, then get a replica made from cubic zirconia. She would never know as long she doesn't try to get it valued, or is friends with a jeweler.

I went to Antwerp for mine and paid a snip of what I would pay here, but still far too much IMO. This bull**** of 3 months wages is just the jewelers marketing ploy to get more money and is no different from possibly the greatest marketing campaign ever; the De Beers essentially though marketing, made the diamond the stone of choice and then bought up as much diamonds as possible to regulate the flow to the market so they can inflate the price.

Bottom line, diamonds are nowhere near as valuable or rare as they are made out to be. This is an interesting read and covers the De Beers marketing campaign:
http://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/diamond-de-beers-marketing-campaign#sm.001xx4ihs12rreewqs81ajxmbyqdl

Maximus Alexander · 10-08-2016 5:48pm

RoboRat wrote: »

Ask her to show you the type of engagement ring she wants, then get a replica made from cubic zirconia. She would never know as long she doesn't try to get it valued, or is friends with a jeweler.

Sure who wouldn't want to start their marriage on the back of a lie?

mackeire · 10-08-2016 5:49pm

Id say he spent a few hundred on the ring and just told everyone it was 8 g's.
Liar!!!!!

RoboRat · 10-08-2016 5:53pm

valoren wrote: »

How about a new tradition?

If a man feels compelled to buy a bit of carbon for what is essentially a symbolic gesture, how about he get's a wrist watch bought for him in return.
My guess is that you wouldn't see many married lads walking around sporting a Rolex if that was the case.

I did that, after I bought the overpriced ring, I picked out a lovely watch and asked my fiancee to buy it for me as her engagement gift to me. I could have bought it myself but I felt I also deserved something special seeing as I shelled out a lot of cash on something I personally think is silly.

I got the watch anyhow :-)

minikin · 10-08-2016 5:59pm

My ex insisted on something with a big stone... was glad she didn't ask for something with a few carrots.

nullzero · 10-08-2016 6:03pm

I personally haggled when buying hers, got a reasonable reduction as well, not saying how much I paid but some people see it as a badge of honor to Bragg about how much they spent.

PARlance · 10-08-2016 6:06pm

valoren wrote: »

Just took a look.

Go back 10 years. Someone wants to spend $8000 on a Tiffany diamond ring which is now worth a fraction of what was paid.

Instead the fiancee says, i don't want a ring but invest it in Tiffany shares instead.

The 8 grand would be worth 16 grand now. Or 19 grand if the dividends were reinvested.

You would now have 311 shares and they would be paying you almost $140 every 3 months. (current dividend is 45 cent)

That's diamond investing.

Not sure how much that 8k ring would be worth today but it wouldn't be paying you money every 3 months that's for sure.

Sex could be limited to 4 times a year to celebrate to quarterly dividend. You could spice it up by going non-missionary for the Annual Results.

Smondie · 10-08-2016 6:07pm

minikin wrote: »

My ex insisted on something with a big stone... was glad she didn't ask for something with a few carrots.

it would have been nutricious aswell as romantic

maudgonner · 10-08-2016 6:18pm

RoboRat wrote: »

Ask her to show you the type of engagement ring she wants, then get a replica made from cubic zirconia. She would never know as long she doesn't try to get it valued, or is friends with a jeweler.

Or how about you marry someone with the same financial values as you and be honest about things? Wouldn't that be more likely to save a lot of hassle in the long run?

Or if she does want an expensive ring, but you decide that she's got qualities that outweigh any differences you have about finances, then shouldn't you be adult enough to live with the consequences of that and buy her a diamond ring, rather than lie to her about it?

(And I say this as someone who wouldn't want to have more than a couple of hundred quid spent on an engagement ring for me, were I ever to get married. But if I found out I had been lied to about it I would be extremely upset and worried about what other lies would be told)

[Deleted User] · 10-08-2016 6:45pm

Just on the subject of engagement rings generally, the engagement ring isn't some venerable old tradition that dates back to ancient times, as some might assume (well, betrothal rings did exist, but mainly among the nobility)

In the Victorian era, men did give posie rings to women, but they were cheap and symbolic of a lover's affection, not exclusively used in a marital context.

Modern, diamond engagement rings are the result of a 20th century marketing strategy by -- you guessed it -- deBeers, the diamond cartel, after the price of diamonds collapsed in the 1930s.

They also started that silly rule about selecting a ring that costs the equivalent of a month's salary. Sneaky, eh?

I know that all sounds like a conspiracy theory, you bunch of old skeptics, but it's verifiably true.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27371208

The idea was embedded in popular culture in the West by an advertising drive from the De Beers diamond cartel that started in the lean years of the 1930s. The Depression was a disaster for De Beers, which controlled 60% of rough diamond output. De Beers embarked on what it now describes as a "substantial" campaign, linking diamonds with engagement.

Prior to the 1930s, presenting a woman with a diamond engagement ring was not the norm. Even on the eve of World War Two, a mere 10% of engagement rings contained diamonds. By the end of the 20th Century, 80% did.

OSI wrote: »

"One used engagement ring for sale"

Yeah, you're alright thanks.

I wouldn't have a problem buying someone a used engagement ring, is that a bad luck thing?

When my eldest sister got engaged, her (now) husband bought her a nice diamond & emerald ring, it was an antique (read: used) ring. He couldn't afford a new ring as they were students. There were some bitchy comments; I gather some women were mildly alarmed that it was a 'second-hand' ring, but who really cares?

Engagement rings

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