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Electric bike - see mode note post #298

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭2x4


    S-pedelecs, capable of 45 Kph are not illegal in Ireland once they have no throttle.

    As long as the owner is prepared to wear an appropriate helmet, have a number plate, tax disc, driving licence, and register and insure the S-Pedelec as an MPV there is no problem.


    An S-pedelec or a de-restricted e-bike/pedelec which does not comply with the above is illegal to ride on and off road. The exception to riding off road is on private land with the permission of the landowner. So basically you can ride in your back garden or on land which the public have no access to. This rules out all Coillte managed land where most off roaders ride.

    It is also illegal to ride any ebike/pedelec or s-pedelec in the North of Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'm not convinced its confusing. Just some choose to selectively quote from the rules or get around them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec
    A pedelec (from pedal electric cycle) is a bicycle where the rider's pedalling is assisted by a small electric motor; thus it is a type of low-powered e-bike. However, unlike some other types of e-bikes, pedelecs are classified as conventional bicycles in many countries by road authorities rather than as a type of electric moped. Pedelecs include an electronic controller which cuts power to the motor when the rider is not pedalling or when a certain speed – usually 25 km/h (16 mph) – is reached. Pedelecs are useful for people who ride in hilly areas or in strong headwinds. While a pedelec can be any type of bicycle, a pedelec city bike is very common. A conventional bicycle can be converted to a pedelec with the addition of the necessary parts, i.e. motor, battery etc.

    Many jurisdictions classify pedelecs as bicycles as opposed to mopeds or motorcycles. More powerful e-bikes, such as the S-Pedelecs and power-on-demand e-bikes (those whose motors can provide assistance regardless of whether the rider is pedalling or not) are often classified as mopeds or even motorcycles with the rider thus subject to the regulations of such motor vehicles, e.g. having a license and a vehicle registration, wearing a helmet etc.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    beauf wrote: »
    If the assistance does not cut out over 25 km/h then its not classed an pedelec.

    Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
    follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
    it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV). Under Road Traffic Law, if an MPV is used in a
    public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles. Therefore, it must be
    roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured. The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is
    obliged to wear a crash helmet.


    So it can legally go faster than 25 Km/h in Ireland. But I do not recommend over 30 mph or 50 Km/h, while it's an acceptable limit on a bicycle it's a speed where you must wear protection and have 8 inch brake disks and hydraulic brakes is a must, once someone is aware of this then they should be safe.

    Of course one should also be aware that motorists won't think you're going that fast on a bicycle.

    I have plenty of experience flying around at 60 Km/h but I was also well aware of the dangers, i.e mainly that I was going way faster than anyone would expect, I also didn't act the idiot on the road, breaking lights weaving in and out of traffic, riding on foot paths but I live in the country anyway and it was a great way to get into town.


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
    follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
    it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV). Under Road Traffic Law, if an MPV is used in a
    public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles. Therefore, it must be
    roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured. The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is
    obliged to wear a crash helmet.


    So it can legally go faster than 25 Km/h in Ireland. But I do not recommend over 30 mph or 50 Km/h, while it's an acceptable limit on a bicycle it's a speed where you must wear protection and have 8 inch brake disks and hydraulic brakes is a must, once someone is aware of this then they should be safe.

    Of course one should also be aware that motorists won't think you're going that fast on a bicycle.

    I have plenty of experience flying around at 60 Km/h but I was also well aware of the dangers, i.e mainly that I was going way faster than anyone would expect, I also didn't act the idiot on the road, breaking lights weaving in and out of traffic, riding on foot paths but I live in the country anyway and it was a great way to get into town.

    that's from an RSA document, is it not? Are those exact words (in particular, 'scooting') verbatim from the actual act?

    Whatever, it seems like there's a massive grey area still. It'll probably take for there to be a fatality before anyone has the will to ungrey it.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    2x4 wrote: »
    S-pedelecs, capable of 45 Kph are not illegal in Ireland once they have no throttle.

    As long as the owner is prepared to wear an appropriate helmet, have a number plate, tax disc, driving licence, and register and insure the S-Pedelec as an MPV there is no problem.


    An S-pedelec or a de-restricted e-bike/pedelec which does not comply with the above is illegal to ride on and off road. The exception to riding off road is on private land with the permission of the landowner. So basically you can ride in your back garden or on land which the public have no access to. This rules out all Coillte managed land where most off roaders ride.

    It is also illegal to ride any ebike/pedelec or s-pedelec in the North of Ireland.

    Did you not read this ? http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

    Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
    follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
    it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV). Under Road Traffic Law, if an MPV is used in a
    public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles. Therefore, it must be
    roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured. The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is
    obliged to wear a crash helmet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    2x4 wrote: »

    Did you not read this ? http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

    Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
    follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
    it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV). Under Road Traffic Law, if an MPV is used in a
    public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles. Therefore, it must be
    roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured. The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is
    obliged to wear a crash helmet.


    are you asking me? You quoted yourself.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    1bryan wrote: »
    are you asking me? You quoted yourself.

    Yes fixed,


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    RustyNut wrote: »
    I have a BBSHD kit that I use without the throttle. I use one of these(I see they have a new version now) to keep it a little more discrete. It allows you to use your phone to program power and speed limits for each assistance level. It also allows it to run legal on the road and full power off road or whatever suits.

    I absolutely love the bike, I still use my road bike for exercise but I commute full time on the ebike unless it's p1ssing down. It will do a full weeks commute on a single charge, 100 km with about 20% left. Everyone who has taken a go on it has come back with a big grin and more or less the same comment, "I wasn't expecting that"


    448337.jpg

    A lovely clean installation ! :)

    That's a cool interface for the BBSHD, I never saw that before.

    Yes ebiking is so much fun, I miss it a lot, I work shift these days and when I'm not working shift I have a 4 year old and 2.5 year old to drive me nuts lol so I'm off the bike at least 3 years. I used to be able to bring the eldest Child off before the 2nd came along, now I just can't go cycling any more but I should make more of an effort when I'm home at weekends when herself is there. Even an hour or two.

    I'm half tempted to sell my Bosch powered haibike eq trekking 2013 model as it's just sitting there most of the time now.

    <snip >

    I'm only half considering to sell it.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    LOL funny, I just came across another article. Read here http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

    As usual no one know what's going on. I've yet to see actual legislation written down on this matter , is the minister speculating Irish law ?

    It seems the bureaucrats in the E.U don't understand basic physics or mechanics and still refuse to increase the power limits, they fail to see that higher power does not mean more speed = more danger, they're simply idiots. Speed and acceleration can be limited and full power applied only when claiming hills where max power is required.

    250 watts wouldn't pull you out of bed which is why some ebike manufacturers ( Bosch to name 1 )hide it by limiting acceleration and top speed and use pedelec system via human cadence V speed to determine motor output.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    Ok so is this the actual law I've been looking for ? the b1stards are following the E.U regulation to every detail and can't think for themselves fools !

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/25/section/7/enacted/en/html

    ‘ pedal cycle ’ means—

    (i) a bicycle or tricycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon, or

    (ii) a pedelec,

    but does not include a moped or a scooter;

    ‘ pedelec ’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling;


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ...So it can legally go faster than 25 Km/h in Ireland....

    .. only unassisted. Assistance up to 25 then after that, its leg power or gravity on a big hill to get faster...


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,001 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Speed and acceleration can be limited and full power applied only when claiming hills where max power is required.
    OK, I think you're arguing for retaining the 25kph max but ditching (or raising) the power limit.

    Which begs the question: how much power is enough? In terms of power at the crank, a normal person should have no difficulty producing 150W from their own legs without overexertion.

    So the 250W limit gives them 400W overall, which enough for a 75kg person on a 15kg bike to climb a 10% hill at 14kph.

    To climb that at 25kph would require 750W, or 600W from the motor.

    But in any case, 25kph is a bit slow to be keeping up with traffic, particularly since we have 30kph limits in the city centre. I could cope with going slower up steep hills or using a bit more muscle.

    So I reckon 30kph and 600W would be reasonable limits. Lumen for Taoiseach! Or at least minister of transport. I couldn't be any worse than Shaney boy...


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Ok so is this the actual law I've been looking for ? the b1stards are following the E.U regulation to every detail and can't think for themselves fools !

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/25/section/7/enacted/en/html

    ‘ pedal cycle ’ means—

    (i) a bicycle or tricycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon, or

    (ii) a pedelec,

    but does not include a moped or a scooter;

    ‘ pedelec ’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling;

    that mention is in relation to the cycle to work scheme I spoke about
    rubadub wrote: »
    The only specific mention I have seen of pedelecs in Irish law was in relation to the bike to work scheme. And it DID note the 25km/h limit, but this just made it clear to me that the bike linked does not qualify for that scheme. (and the law seemed like a cut & paste job).

    I could not find any other mention of pedelecs, or if ones that go above that are against the law.

    I said a cut & paste job, like someone said "oh we should include electric bikes!, find out a nice definition of one and lash it in".

    Again I wonder if anybody can explain why cyclesuperstore are selling 45km/h ones very clearly intended for commuting.
    Lumen wrote: »
    So the 250W limit gives them 400W overall, which enough for a 75kg person on a 15kg bike to climb a 10% hill at 14kph.

    To climb that at 25kph would require 750W, or 600W from the motor..
    He was saying limit power and limit acceleration. What negatives do you see if people had a 1000W or even a 5000W motor? (with the speed AND acceleration limited)

    All it means is hills are not really an issue. I would like a high power one as I guess it is not as hard on the motor.

    Most E bikes are well over 15kg, and many people using them are well over 75kg -the exact reason they might want one. Even those who are 75kg might be older, unfit, or have injuries -again why they are using them.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    Lumen wrote: »
    OK, I think you're arguing for retaining the 25kph max but ditching (or raising) the power limit.

    Which begs the question: how much power is enough? In terms of power at the crank, a normal person should have no difficulty producing 150W from their own legs without overexertion.

    So the 250W limit gives them 400W overall, which enough for a 75kg person on a 15kg bike to climb a 10% hill at 14kph.

    To climb that at 25kph would require 750W, or 600W from the motor.

    But in any case, 25kph is a bit slow to be keeping up with traffic, particularly since we have 30kph limits in the city centre. I could cope with going slower up steep hills or using a bit more muscle.

    So I reckon 30kph and 600W would be reasonable limits. Lumen for Taoiseach! Or at least minister of transport. I couldn't be any worse than Shaney boy...

    How much power is enough ? good question, well for heavier riders in hilly areas who are not so fit they could easily need 1 Kw or depending on how fast they want to climb a particular hill, perhaps they got a hill and a strong headwind, maybe they don;t want to put so much effort in on a particular day, it's a difficult question to answer but 1 Kw should be enough for most people.

    The 25 Km/h cut off is also a bit low, it should be around 33 Km/h as is the case in the U.S which have a 1 Kw 20 Mph cutoff and this makes sense,.

    As I said, politicians lack a basic understanding of physics/mechanics and they don't even try to understand.

    250 watts is an utter joke.

    By the way, ebikes are a superb way to get fit, for those who want to because you use assistance when you need it and turn it off when you don't and it encourages people to get out and exercise.

    If we can convince people to get out commuting more on ebikes then we need to make them more attractive, that is , a bit faster and more powerful, an extra 8 Km/h isn't that much faster but makes a notable difference.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Anna Glamorous Redneck


    rubadub wrote: »

    Again I wonder if anybody can explain why cyclesuperstore are selling 45km/h ones very clearly intended for commuting.

    Why can't they sell s-pedelecs ? it's perfectly legal to sell them, they have the type approval and that's all they need.

    rubadub wrote: »
    He was saying limit power and limit acceleration. What negatives do you see if people had a 1000W or even a 5000W motor? (with the speed AND acceleration limited)

    All it means is hills are not really an issue. I would like a high power one as I guess it is not as hard on the motor.

    Most E bikes are well over 15kg, and many people using them are well over 75kg -the exact reason they might want one. Even those who are 75kg might be older, unfit, or have injuries -again why they are using them.

    Exactly, nail on the head, it's a pity the dumb politicians can't or refuse to see this or even care as they drive around in diesel vehicles , probably overweight and preach to the rest of us how we should limit our use of energy and talk about obesity and stresses on health care.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Why can't they sell s-pedelecs ? it's perfectly legal to sell them,
    The legality of them selling them is not really the question.

    Many here are saying a pedelec that can go 26km/h with assistance is illegal to use on public roads here. If this is true do those people think cyclesuperstore are knowingly or unknowingly conning people into believing they can be used on the road?

    If CSS knew it was illegal for road use I would expect very noticeable warnings about it.

    It is not a MTB, it is clearly being sold for "road riding" "commuting". If saying an approved helmet is needed it is odd to leave out tax & insurance, if it also is needed. (the helmet thing seems to be a requirement in Germany)

    https://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=101614
    LIVELY FAST BIKES FOR THE TOWN With their sporty looks, equipped for urban and road riding, the Commuting range has been specially conceived for active types who don’t want to waste time on their daily commute. With or without electrical assistance, getting around town by bike has never been so fast. Overvolt Speed is a real alternative to a 50cm3 scooter, this bike is equipped with a Bosch Performance 350W motor enabling you to get around at 45km/h without polluting. An approved helmet is needed.

    This UK site talks about it, and says it is illegal it on the road in the UK with no license.

    https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/whats-the-difference-between-the-250w-350w-bosch-ebike-motors-explained/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    CSS You'd have to ask them.

    It's not like people on the thread are making up the rules. It's clearly stated in numerous official sources.

    You'd be unlucky to find a cop who would know the difference. The issue would be if you had an accident. Even if you were in the right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    beauf wrote: »
    It's clearly stated in numerous official sources.
    As I said before I have yet to see one which convinced me. Maybe I missed one though.

    I would prefer to actually see the law referenced on www.irishstatutebook.ie not some TD, journalist, gardai or the RSA spouting stuff which sounds "official".

    I remember the gardai having posters with illustrations of bikes whose lights would have been illegal.

    I am pretty sure some irish cycling website was claiming it was a grey area -rather than "clearly stated" as being illegal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Statue book was referenced.

    Not that it matters, most people in this thread are ignoring things that are well known and obvious, and also selectively quoting, giving a false impression on whats allowed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    beauf wrote: »
    Statue book was referenced.
    Yes, I referenced it first (no direct link), saying it lists a definition of pedelecs which can be bought on the cycle to work scheme. Mad Lad gave a link to the cycle to work law, and again I said this is not explicitly saying its illegal to use on the road.

    It also lists that helmets bought on the scheme must conform to a CEN/EN standard. But similarly this does not say it is illegal to go on the road with a helmet which does not conform.

    Maybe I am missing another post though?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Its interesting there is no direct document, saying its illegal. Could it be that all these people including the Cycle to Work Legislation are referencing something that doesn't actually exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    beauf wrote: »
    Its interesting there is no direct document, saying its illegal. Could it be that all these people including the Cycle to Work Legislation are referencing something that doesn't actually exist.

    They are all taking it from EN 15194, which is not necessarily law. It would make sense that the scheme would want to allow people to buy helmets and bikes which comply with standards.

    This site would suggest it is compulsory in France and the UK.

    http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2009/03/new-epac-standard-for-safe-e-bikes-1018518
    This date is July 31st 2009. The implementation of the EPAC standard varies by country. In some European countries it is compulsory by law. These countries are (as far as Bike Europe knows at this moment) France and the UK. In other countries it is part of the European product safety ruling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,179 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    In simple terms, anything with a throttle is illegal.
    Your use of double negatives is odd


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,179 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Also

    Here's the si that enforces the EU directive

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print

    ****
    cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling, and
    *****


    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32002L0024

    Article 1 h


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,001 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    As I understand it, a motorised vehicle has a load of regulations attached to it as a consequence of having a motor.

    Then there are exemptions to certain defined classes of vehicle, of which one is a pedelec.

    If the e-bike doesn't meet those definitions, it is then a motorcycle.

    Motorcycles are not illegal, but they do have a load of regulations attached, e.g.

    http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicle/About-your-Vehicle/What-Category-is-my-vehicle/Motorcyclesmopedstrikes--quads/

    So when we say "this e-bike is illegal", we mean "this is a motorbike which doesn't have type approval, and is therefore illegal to use on the public road".

    The fact that high-power e-bikes are marketed as bicycles doesn't make them bicycles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    Lumen wrote: »
    As I understand it, a motorised vehicle has a load of regulations attached to it as a consequence of having a motor.

    Then there are exemptions to certain defined classes of vehicle, of which one is a pedelec.

    If the e-bike doesn't meet those definitions, it is then a motorcycle.

    Motorcycles are not illegal, but they do have a load of regulations attached, e.g.

    http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicle/About-your-Vehicle/What-Category-is-my-vehicle/Motorcyclesmopedstrikes--quads/

    So when we say "this e-bike is illegal", we mean "this is a motorbike which doesn't have type approval, and is therefore illegal to use on the public road".

    The fact that high-power e-bikes are marketed as bicycles doesn't make them bicycles.

    so it's probably category L1e that would apply here. I wonder how they calculate the required tax band it falls into. Normally they base it on a manufacturer's spec they are provided with (I imported a car 20 years ago and couldn't tax it for some time until revenue had obtained the spec for it - it wasn't available in Ireland at the time - I wonder if the same problem could exist here).

    And, if it's a bike someone has modified themselves, how can they calculate what the tax liability on that should be?

    I think there is an easy solution to this. Basically restrict sales to those falling within the specifications permitted to be on the road by law, and ban everything else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Or a simpler way to look at it, for those who remain "unconvinced". It's not you that needs "convinced", it'll be the powers-that-be that will need convinced of your selective interpretations in the face of an incident that merits the involvement of insurance folk and/or court rooms in some shape or form.

    In short, feel free to take your chances.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ted1 wrote: »
    Also

    Here's the si that enforces the EU directive

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print
    ...

    Thanks for that. How did you find it. Nothing I searched for brings that back. Even words in the text itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,735 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    beauf wrote: »
    Thanks for that. How did you find it. Nothing I searched for brings that back. Even words in the text itself.

    If you try:
    cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power site:irishstatutebook.ie
    on duckduckgo.com, it's the first result.

    If you try it without the site restriction, you get:
    http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/08/eu-regulations-for-e-bikes-pedelecs-part-2-machinery-directive-1018837
    which has in the text a direct quote from the EU directive.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,179 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    beauf wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Also

    Here's the si that enforces the EU directive

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print
    ...

    Thanks for that. How did you find it. Nothing I searched for brings that back. Even words in the text itself.
    I just searched on the Irish statue book websites


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