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Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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  • Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭$ausage$


    Buer wrote: »
    $ausage$ wrote: »
    For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

    When you think back to their European campaigns, it's not that surprising. They were absolutely dominant in their pools winning 11/12 games under him. It should have been a clean sweep too if it wasn't for a poor loss at home to Northampton.
    Think back? As a avid Ulster fan I use the Men in Black device every Sunday night so that I do not have to go through the week frowning, and swearing under my breath at my wife and co workers.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    irishfan9 wrote: »
    Or putting it another way, a reliance on players from leinster to provide both forwards for the academy and first team forwards.

    Which is a big reason as to why the folk movement is getting so much momentum online. Yes players are coming through the academy but they are outsiders. Worse they are Leinstermen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Why was Anscombe run out of town again?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Why was Anscombe run out of town again?

    Either because fans hated him of because of John Afoa threatening to take paternity leave. And anscomb giving in to his demands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    $ausage$ wrote: »
    taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.
    437710.JPG

    So the current regime is the 2nd best we've had in the professional era...and that's despite all the injuries and unavailable young gentlemen...

    Look I've been up and down with Kiss. After the Connacht game I wanted him gone. At half time the other night I would have paid for his flight back to Australia myself, but in the cold light of day I'd still be inclined to let him see the season out (which is what is going to happen anyway) and take stock then.

    Of course it's going to hard for him (or anyone) without an out half for the final 40% of the season...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Why was Anscombe run out of town again?

    It was reported that 'player power' was behind it.

    The guy left just a couple of months after getting an extension and he is still very, very bitter about the way things went.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    There were off field issues with Anscombe that lost him the dressing room.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    $ausage$ wrote: »
    Kiss has had 4 years at different levels. 4 years is longer than most other coaches get. Have you really seen an improvement over the last 4 years?

    Has he had 4 years? He was still working with Ireland up to and including the 2015 RWC. He only really got his feet under the table after that. And that was just over 2 years ago. Basically he's had 1 full season and 2 half seasons either side of that. And for the first season and a half he had Doak and Clarke in place, whom, if memory serves, were the ones getting exactly the same reaction that Kiss is getting now. He's only had this season to date with a coaching team of his choice, and he's been dealt a pretty crappy hand for most of the season to date with injuries and absentees. Sure he hasn't helped matters at times, but I don't think it is in any way fair to say he's had 4 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I have to admit to being in 2 minds over the whole thing. Kiss' position will become untenable if it hasn't already. It's a crappy outcome given the crappy position he is in, but if performances continue the way they have been going then it will be hard to justify keeping him on regardless. Ulster have most certainly been guilty of under performing and if he can't fix that then Ulster need someone who can, even if the issue lies with the players and not the coaches.

    That said they have made some very good signings for next season already. They are shoring up the pack in a big way and that could go a long way towards fixing at least some of the issues up there. Part of me thinks the guy needs to be given a proper shot at this. You don't fix up a club with that many issues in a season or two. And bear in mind that this is his first season with a coaching team that he has selected. I don't think he's helping himself by not being more honest with the media about where they stand and where he's looking to take them. Maybe if he was he might win over some support and get people on board with what he's trying to do. Assuming of course there is a longer term plan there.

    A new coach may or may not get the benefit of those signings. Then again Jono was supposed to be the messiah in terms of pack performances and yet his previous good CV is foundering at Ulster. Like Kiss who's defensive record at international level speaks for itself but Ulster can't defend. If Kiss goes, he will be replaced by someone inheriting the same group of players and maybe just maybe it's them and their attitude that's the real problem. Admittedly the Walter Mitty nature of team selection is really not helping make a good case for Kiss, but it isn't tactical problems that are leading to the bad performances. Yes it's the coaches job to turn those things around, but maybe that's an impossible task with this group.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    It's interesting though because #sausages# own graphic shows we have lost just 4 matches all season. That's hardly a disaster. Equally awec will rightly point out that we still have a lot of hard matches to come including Leinster, Munster and the Scarlets away.

    Perception seems to be a big thing with Kiss and Ulster and there is a negative perception hanging over his head and to be honest it's hard to see how he can shake that.

    Even if we reach the Quarter Finals of Europe and a semi final in the Pro 14 there will be those who will sat it is because the opposition are terrible. I don't think he can win either way.

    But then he has brought a lot of it on himself with some bizarre selections and the also the fact out defensive record is dreadful and this is an area he specialises in!

    That said I heard something on the radio the other day regarding Pep Guardiola, someone made the point that a coach is only as good as his players. Guardiola may be the best football manager in the world...but then he always has the best team... The reality is that while Ulster have a very good 1st XV we have a pretty average squad or I suppose if I was being generous a very inexperienced squad. To be honest I'm not sure anyone could turn Ulster from water into wine.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    bilston wrote: »
    $ausage$ wrote: »
    taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.
    437710.JPG

    So the current regime is the 2nd best we've had in the professional era...and that's despite all the injuries and unavailable young gentlemen...

    Look I've been up and down with Kiss. After the Connacht game I wanted him gone. At half time the other night I would have paid for his flight back to Australia myself, but in the cold light of day I'd still be inclined to let him see the season out (which is what is going to happen anyway) and take stock then.

    Of course it's going to hard for him (or anyone) without an out half for the final 40% of the season...

    Let's wait until the end of the season until we know our final win percentage before declaring it the best of anything. We've got to play Leinster away, Scarlets away, Edinburgh. The point is we've had an easy opening half of the season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    bilston wrote: »
    $ausage$ wrote: »
    taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.
    437710.JPG

    So the current regime is the 2nd best we've had in the professional era...and that's despite all the injuries and unavailable young gentlemen...

    Look I've been up and down with Kiss. After the Connacht game I wanted him gone. At half time the other night I would have paid for his flight back to Australia myself, but in the cold light of day I'd still be inclined to let him see the season out (which is what is going to happen anyway) and take stock then.

    Of course it's going to hard for him (or anyone) without an out half for the final 40% of the season...

    Let's wait until the end of the season until we know our final win percentage before declaring it the best of anything. We've got to play Leinster away, Scarlets away, Edinburgh. The point is we've had an easy opening half of the season.

    I realise that, but waiting until the end of the season works both ways. If we still have a similar win rate at the end of the season will people be prepared to give Kiss a chance? Or has his ship sailed no matter what?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,754 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    $ausage$ wrote: »
    For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

    I do. I thought he brought a fair bit to the table when he was there. We played some very good rugby under his watch but then again we did have a decent pack and the backs seemed to click.

    At the minute we seem to play well at times and other times the players seem to not give 2 shiny shìts. Against connacht I noticed Henderson ambling back to try and stop a maul and he really did seem half hearted in his attempt to stop it. He's not the only one mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    As far as I'm concerned,he could 100% stay on if we have the same win percentage. We won't.

    As far as I'm concerned, getting some young fellas blooded this season is as much as we can ask for. Get Matty Dalton some games, and Jones and Hall. Maybe O'Hagan. Give Cairns more game time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    mfceiling wrote: »
    $ausage$ wrote: »
    For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

    I do. I thought he brought a fair bit to the table when he was there. We played some very good rugby under his watch but then again we did have a decent pack and the backs seemed to click.

    At the minute we seem to play well at times and other times the players seem to not give 2 shiny shìts. Against connacht I noticed Henderson ambling back to try and stop a maul and he really did seem half hearted in his attempt to stop it. He's not the only one mind.

    Also, there was a sense of determination and togetherness the season Spence died - I suspect that played a larger part than Anscomb's coaching.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,754 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Also, there was a sense of determination and togetherness the season Spence died - I suspect that played a larger part than Anscomb's coaching.

    That is true enough to be fair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,889 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    It was reported that 'player power' was behind it.

    The guy left just a couple of months after getting an extension and he is still very, very bitter about the way things went.

    It wasn't player power at all, rather it was an issue with his management style and his 'treatment' of some players while socialising exuberantly with others. Many of the more party orientated guys loved him. I thought he was a good coach and suspect that the Holy Roller Mafia in the 'Management Committee' may have been behind it. They may not have enjoyed his stress relieving visits to Cutters Wharf. Utterly inept, antiquated, stupid, freeloading twozzers to a man. They are the unpleasant scrotes who sacked Matt Williams by 'phone when he was in Singapore Airport on his way to Oz for Christmas. That is no way to do business.

    I would be happy for Kiss to stay if it suddenly looked like the usually high standard of Ulster's defence was restored. At the moment it has all the tensile strength of a piece of wet bog roll. . What in the name of Dog is he at? The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.

    It is also clear that when a fully fit squad is available it is an effective unit with some really high quality players. See the game v. Scarlets. The team that night on the 5th anniversary of the deaths of the Spence men.
    (15 - 9) Louis Ludik; Andrew Trimble, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale; Christian Lealiifano, John Cooney
    (1 - 8) Kyle McCall, Rob Herring, Wiehahn Herbst, Kieran Treadwell, Alan O'Connor, Matthew Rea, Chris Henry (c), Sean Reidy
    Replacements (16 - 23) John Andrew, Andrew Warwick, Rodney Ah You, Robbie Diack, Clive Ross, Paul Marshall, Peter Nelson, Tommy Bowe. Scarlets were fortunate to get anywhere near 20 points. Ulster didn't have Piutau, Payne, Best, Henderson that night but still looked good.

    A pack chosen from Best, Henderson, Herbst, Treadwell, O'Connor, Reidy, Henry, Timoney should be far more capable of front foot play. Next season we can add in Coetzee (maybe), Moore and J.M.

    Kiss has had to cope not only with the loss of Coetzee, Payne, Jackson, Olding but other players for most of the season. Best has only 3 appearances for example. V.D. Merwe also. Luke Marshall and others have missed half of all games. Sadly even when most are fit they can often end up not being selected or playing out of position and herein lies one of Les's main flaws. It seems he would have difficulty not just picking his nose but actually selecting it on his left foot.

    One upside of the catastrophic injury list is that we have seen how good some of the young guys might actually be. Kiss isn't unpopular because of Ulster losing games, it is because of the decline in how the team is playing. We can see the writing on the wall if it doesn't turn around. Still, he can't suddenly magic up replacement players for the likes of Payne or Bowe, Trimble, Henry who are on the slide. He certainly can't turn over a stone and dig up cover for the 'Two Young gentlemen.'


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    jacothelad wrote: »
    It was reported that 'player power' was behind it.

    The guy left just a couple of months after getting an extension and he is still very, very bitter about the way things went.

    It wasn't player power at all, rather it was an issue with his management style and his 'treatment' of some players while socialising exuberantly with others. Many of the more party orientated guys loved him. I thought he was a good coach and suspect that the Holy Roller Mafia in the 'Management Committee' may have been behind it. They may not have enjoyed his stress relieving visits to Cutters Wharf. Utterly inept, antiquated, stupid, freeloading twozzers to a man. They are the unpleasant scrotes who sacked Matt Williams by 'phone when he was in Singapore Airport on his way to Oz for Christmas. That is no way to do business.

    I would be happy for Kiss to stay if it suddenly looked like the usually high standard of Ulster's defence was restored. At the moment it has all the tensile strength of a piece of wet bog roll. . What in the name of Dog is he at? The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.

    It is also clear that when a fully fit squad is available it is an effective unit with some really high quality players. See the game v. Scarlets. The team that night on the 5th anniversary of the deaths of the Spence men.
    (15 - 9) Louis Ludik; Andrew Trimble, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale; Christian Lealiifano, John Cooney
    (1 - 8) Kyle McCall, Rob Herring, Wiehahn Herbst, Kieran Treadwell, Alan O'Connor, Matthew Rea, Chris Henry (c), Sean Reidy
    Replacements (16 - 23) John Andrew, Andrew Warwick, Rodney Ah You, Robbie Diack, Clive Ross, Paul Marshall, Peter Nelson, Tommy Bowe. Scarlets were fortunate to get anywhere near 20 points. Ulster didn't have Piutau, Payne, Best, Henderson that night but still looked good.

    A pack chosen from Best, Henderson, Herbst, Treadwell, O'Connor, Reidy, Henry, Timoney should be far more capable of front foot play. Next season we can add in Coetzee (maybe), Moore and J.M.

    Kiss has had to cope not only with the loss of Coetzee but other players for most of the season. Best has only 3 appearances for example. V.D. Merwe also. Luke Marshall and others have missed half of all games. Sadly even when most are fit they can often end up not being selected or playing out of position and herein lies one of Les's main flaws. It seems he would have difficulty not just picking his nose but actually selecting it on his left foot.

    One upside of the catastrophic injury list is that we have seen how good some of the young guys might actually be. Kiss isn't unpopular because of Ulster losing games, it is because of the decline in how the team is playing. We can see the writing on the wall if it doesn't turn around. Still, he can't suddenly magic up replacement players for the likes of Payne or Bowe, Trimble, Henry who are on the slide. He certainly can't turn over a stone and dig up cover for the 'Two Young gentlemen.'

    Excellent post Jaco. Very fair and I agree with pretty much all of it.

    On Anscombe I refer to my earlier point about Guardiola. Look at the squad Amscombe had...Court, Best, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Henderson (I don't think Fez played much under him), Henry, Williams. You then had Pienaar in his pomp, a terrific centre pairing in Wallace and Cave, a young Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson, and a back three of Trimble, Gilroy, Bowe and Payne. It was a super super team.

    Edit - a team I think may well have won the 2013 HEC had Payne not be sent off against Saracens or certainly would have got to a home semi final against Clermont and possibly a final against Toulon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    jacothelad wrote: »
    .

    I would be happy for Kiss to stay if it suddenly looked like the usually high standard of Ulster's defence was restored. At the moment it has all the tensile strength of a piece of wet bog roll. . What in the name of Dog is he at? The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.
    .'


    This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    jacothelad wrote: »
    It wasn't player power at all, rather it was an issue with his management style and his 'treatment' of some players while socialising exuberantly with others. Many of the more party orientated guys loved him. I thought he was a good coach and suspect that the Holy Roller Mafia in the 'Management Committee' may have been behind it. They may not have enjoyed his stress relieving visits to Cutters Wharf. Utterly inept, antiquated, stupid, freeloading twozzers to a man. They are the unpleasant scrotes who sacked Matt Williams by 'phone when he was in Singapore Airport on his way to Oz for Christmas. That is no way to do business.
    As always Jaco, your posts are such a good read.

    I'd just say about the bolded bit, that it's very poor management to indulge in what you describe. It could well have been 'player power' by those excluded from the drinking inner circle who would have rightly cried foul.

    You're always going to create an 'us and them' division with that kind of carry on. And you can't manage effectively with your drinking buddies.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    stephen_n wrote: »
    This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.
    But they can tackle. Four missed against Munster is a staggering statistic. Less than 5% iirc. However I see some less than stellar efforts from players you;d expect more from. Henderson against Connacht was a disgrace imo. Hard to fathom, but whether it's trying to avoid injury so as to be fit for the 6N, or not being arsed because there's nobody nipping at your heels is probably irrelevant other than the fact that it's happening.

    Younger lads are stepping up though and a bit more competition should put that stuff away for good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,889 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    stephen_n wrote: »
    This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

    My point was that the defence set up is so poor week on week that it's
    a) surely got to be what the players are tasked with. Under Jonny Bell, Ulster had an aggressive line defence that made it hard for the opposition to breach it hence the concession of for example 26 or 29 tries in a full league season compared to 47 last season and 37 in 12 games so far in this season. 47 so far this season if you include the ERC games.
    and
    b) It makes the narrowness of and lack of line speed and co-ordination put the tacklers in situations where they are not in the right positions to be effective. It reduces the chances of making robust tackles and gives opponents a much easier time to score on the outside.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    To be fair we conceded 17 points against Munster because we couldn't defend a maul. Does that lie at the door of the defence coach or the forwards coach?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    bilston wrote: »
    To be fair we conceded 17 points against Munster because we couldn't defend a maul. Does that lie at the door of the defence coach or the forwards coach?

    The penalty try was a scrum but either way you'd think that's whoever is in charge of the set piece, so forwards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    I can’t think of a witty thread title...but fun fact RESULT is an anagram of Ulster...

    (Also in the days of Nokia phones and autocorrect Trimble became urinal - my boss used to cry himself laughing, I didn’t find it that funny...)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Ulster have been through so many coaches that I don't see how we can avoid the conclusion that either the environment is toxic or the players are, or both.

    I don't believe that the problem is McLaughlin and Anscombe and Doak and Clarke and Kiss and Gibbes. It couldn't be.

    I think time and a few player retirements will help tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Isn’t Dundon the scrum coach?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Isn’t Dundon the scrum coach?

    Yep


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Mod edit: Will people please stop making allegations about individuals please? If it can't be substantiated with published proof it's potentially libellous and we don't tolerate speculation about players/staff personal lives either.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    jacothelad wrote: »
    The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.
    stephen_n wrote: »
    This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

    A sentence that involves tortoises, prostate exams and 9-fingered lepers, and all you can say is he's wrong about the tackling! :D


    I think the most original thread title so far is Les Miserables. Any more suggestions before it's changed?


This discussion has been closed.
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