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Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Zzippy wrote: »
    jacothelad wrote: »
    The guys look like they would have difficulty tackling a runaway tortoise undergoing a prostate exam from a 9 fingered leper.
    stephen_n wrote: »
    This is the bit I don’t get, how is it Kiss’s fault the players can’t tackle? I get your point earlier about the style of defence. But players missing or falling off tackles is hardly anyone’s fault except the player doing it.

    A sentence that involves tortoises, prostate exams and 9-fingered lepers, and all you can say is he's wrong about the tackling! :D


    I think the most original thread title so far is Les Miserables. Any more suggestions before it's changed?

    Sounds good to me Zzippy


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,889 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Mod edit: Unsubstantiated allegations removed
    I had heard this also but not from anyone directly involved or who had observed such episodes. i wouldn't care if Caligula was DOR and Nero was the forwards coacxh if it meant we might win something.

    As for the title

    Les Kisserabbles seems appropriate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Were Treadwell, Herring, McCloskey and Stockdale able to tackle playing for Ireland?

    Presumably if Saint Joe lines Ulster players up for the Six Nations, he thinks they can tackle okay?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    jacothelad wrote: »
    Mod edit: Unsubstantiated allegations removed
    I had heard this also but not from anyone directly involved or who had observed such episodes. i wouldn't care if Caligula was DOR and Nero was the forwards coacxh if it meant we might win something.

    As for the title

    Les Kisserabble seems appropriate.

    You'd care if there was legal action threatening our coach as well as two of the young men the branch was planning on building a team around long term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Zzippy wrote: »
    I think the most original thread title so far is Les Miserables. Any more suggestions before it's changed?

    Are Ulster fans aware that misérable in French doesn't mean "sad" but rather "impoverished"?

    I'm aware Ulster haven't won silverware for a while, but calling that impoverished is a really bleak view on things!

    (but I agree with Jaco that Les Kisserables has some wit about it, especially given the lack of too many other options. If only Ulster has chosen the Star Wars theme first...)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    jacothelad wrote: »
    My point was that the defence set up is so poor week on week that it's
    a) surely got to be what the players are tasked with. Under Jonny Bell, Ulster had an aggressive line defence that made it hard for the opposition to breach it hence the concession of for example 26 or 29 tries in a full league season compared to 47 last season and 37 in 12 games so far in this season. 47 so far this season if you include the ERC games.
    and
    b) It makes the narrowness of and lack of line speed and co-ordination put the tacklers in situations where they are not in the right positions to be effective. It reduces the chances of making robust tackles and gives opponents a much easier time to score on the outside.

    a) we never really know what the players are tasked with, just the overview of a system. Again if you’re going to make comparisons with past systems though. Kiss’s Systems have worked at a much higher level than Pro-14.

    b) surely the system you are employing lends itself to less mistakes. The rush system leads to more overall missed tackles, but with the system Ulster are employing, there should me more accuracy. If there is an issue with line speed, then that’s implementation not the system?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).

    Occam's Razor would suggest Kiss is doing a poor job of balancing being the de facto head coach with organising the defence, or that he is sticking to outdated ideas. Blaming it on professional players spontaneously losing the ability to tackle in a white jersey is gong around the houses to get the end conclusion you want.

    Here's a question. What do McLaughlin, Anscomb, Doak, Kiss and even Gibbes have in common?

    Not one had been a Head Coach at club level before coming to Ulster?

    Not one had been a head coach at this level of rugby before.

    That's the blazers' fault. They need to get us a steady hand rather than taking punt after punt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭DGRulz


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Are Ulster fans aware that misérable in French doesn't mean "sad" but rather "impoverished"?

    I'm aware Ulster haven't won silverware for a while, but calling that impoverished is a really bleak view on things!

    (but I agree with Jaco that Les Kisserables has some wit about it, especially given the lack of too many other options. If only Ulster has chosen the Star Wars theme first...)

    It's not too late for them to adopt it now. Sure, they've already started adopting our players. :D




  • Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Smiley happy people holding hands


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,162 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Here's a question. What do McLaughlin, Anscomb, Doak, Kiss and even Gibbes have in common?

    Not one had been a Head Coach at club level before coming to Ulster?

    Not one had been a head coach at this level of rugby before.

    That's certainly not unusual in Irish rugby though. Cullen, Cheika, Schmidt, Foley, Van Graan, Kidney, Bradley, Elwood etc. None of them had any significant senior head coaching experience at professional level before getting their provincial appointments.

    If someone has the credentials, talent and experience within the professional environment, then I think they'll be equipped to be a successful coach. One or two of the names listed above were extremely successful coaches with their Ulster stints sticking out as the worst spells of their careers.

    I don't know what the issue is but there's something bigger at work here whether it's something within the culture of Ulster Rugby or the supporting structures and development.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).

    Fuzzy logic here. I don't know if Schmidt has an issue with their defence but he has some issue with each and every one of them.

    Herring made his debut in 2014 (two minutes off the bench in Argentina) and wasn't seen again for over three years, came off the bench against SA, started against Fiji... then dropped for Argentina.

    Treadwell only got 15 mins off the bench against Fiji. Too early to call.

    McCloskey made his debut in Febrary 2016 - then nothing until for 19 months, gets a run against Fiji but Chris Farrell is preferred the following week.

    Reidy has a test career totalling 30 minutes. He didn't feature at all in November.

    You can add Marshall, Gilroy, Cave and even Jackson to the list of guys who have been much bigger hits at Ulster than they have with Joe. Ludik and Herbst have become Ireland-eligible with nary a call-up in sight.

    I'm not saying these guys are bad players, but their history of selection under Joe would actually make the opposite point to the one you're making.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Ulster Team Talk Thread III - Tortoise undergoing a prostate exam


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    (c) - jacothelad


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,553 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Are Ulster fans aware that misérable in French doesn't mean "sad" but rather "impoverished"?

    I'm aware Ulster haven't won silverware for a while, but calling that impoverished is a really bleak view on things!

    (but I agree with Jaco that Les Kisserables has some wit about it, especially given the lack of too many other options. If only Ulster has chosen the Star Wars theme first...)
    Impverished is probably very apt really. Have you looked at that table of players and appearances I made on page one? Something like 15 players unavailable or thereabouts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).
    .

    Players from all the provinces seem to play better for “saint Joe”, that’s not unusual. It happened with Leinster when MO’C was in charge. To use a phrase I hate, their were cultural issues within Leinster at that stage, so why do you think those issues don’t exist within the Ulster setup. As Bilston pointed out earlier,, you could see Henderson going around looking half arsed (a senior player), do you think he’d do that for Ireland? Now I think that it is a coaches job to drive the players, so Kiss has responsibility here. But again Jono was supposed to have an impact there, which hasn’t materialized, so maybe the players just don’t care that much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,553 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Players from all the provinces seem to play better for “saint Joe”, that’s not unusual. It happened with Leinster when MO’C was in charge. To use a phrase I hate, their were cultural issues within Leinster at that stage, so why do you think those issues don’t exist within the Ulster setup. As Bilston pointed out earlier,, you could see Henderson going around looking half arsed (a senior player), do you think he’d do that for Ireland? Now I think that it is a coaches job to drive the players, so Kiss has responsibility here. But again Jono was supposed to have an impact there, which hasn’t materialized, so maybe the players just don’t care that much.
    The problem as I see it for players putting in half-arsed tackles and efforts for Ulster is because they have no real competition. Who's actually challenging Henderson for his spot? Even if everyone (including Ethel the tea lady*) is fit, he still has no real competition.





    *No idea if he makes a nice cup of tea. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Again, so you think Schmidt has an issue with the tackling of Herring, Treadwell, McCloskey, Reidy etc? Or does he think it's the system? Given he ha selected them to play for Ireland in the last six months (where none of them performed poorly in defence).

    Fuzzy logic here. I don't know if Schmidt has an issue with their defence but he has some issue with each and every one of them.

    Herring made his debut in 2014 (two minutes off the bench in Argentina) and wasn't seen again for over three years, came off the bench against SA, started against Fiji... then dropped for Argentina.

    Treadwell only got 15 mins off the bench against Fiji. Too early to call.

    McCloskey made his debut in Febrary 2016 - then nothing until for 19 months, gets a run against Fiji but Chris Farrell is preferred the following week.

    Reidy has a test career totalling 30 minutes. He didn't feature at all in November.

    You can add Marshall, Gilroy, Cave and even Jackson to the list of guys who have been much bigger hits at Ulster than they have with Joe. Ludik and Herbst have become Ireland-eligible with nary a call-up in sight.

    I'm not saying these guys are bad players, but their history of selection under Joe would actually make the opposite point to the one you're making.

    Nice try.

    So you think Joe would select them if he thought they couldn't tackle?

    It doesn't make the opposite point at all. All have been left out for superior players. Unless you think that only players with 10+ caps are capable of competent defending at Pro14 level.

    None would have ever gotten a single cap if Joe thought their personal tackling and inability to be organised defensively was the cause of the current defensive malaise at Ulster.

    Joe thinks they are capable of turning in sufficiently good see above performances to play international rugby. Sporadically or not. Is there a reason they can reach that bar for an international cap but don't defend as well at club level, that is something to do with their own abilities? Or does it simply make more sense that it's something to do with the guy organising the defence at club level?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    The problem as I see it for players putting in half-arsed tackles and efforts for Ulster is because they have no real competition. Who's actually challenging Henderson for his spot? Even if everyone (including Ethel the tea lady*) is fit, he still has no real competition.





    *No idea if he makes a nice cup of tea. ;)

    And that’s the thing possibly hampering the coaches, they can’t really drop players who aren’t performing. Although that doesn’t tally with what happened with Cave.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Nice try.

    So you think Joe would select them if he thought they couldn't tackle?

    I think in McCloskeys case that’s exactly why he wasn’t getting picked.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Hendo's knackered from the Lions. See also the article about Jack McGrath in the 42.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,553 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    stephen_n wrote: »
    And that’s the thing possibly hampering the coaches, they can’t really drop players who aren’t performing. Although that doesn’t tally with what happened with Cave.
    Well it does. Because they replaced Cave with all kinds of everything including Tommy Bowe, Louis Ludik, Ethel the tea lady etc.

    In some ways it's kind of unfair. To continue the French theme, dropping guys 'pour encourager les autres' only works if you can do the same with 'les autres'. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    So why pick him on November?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    So why pick him on November?

    You are required to field 23 players.

    I don't know why McCloskey is not a Joe favourite, maybe it's his defence, maybe it's something else, but no, he doesn't rate him at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,553 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Hendo's knackered from the Lions. See also the article about Jack McGrath in the 42.
    That may well be the case. His worst showing was against Connacht which was after two tough starts againsts Quins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    That's kind of off the point. We've been discussing whether Ulster's defensive issues are more likely because of the organisation or because none of the players can tackle. Joe thought they were capable of defending at I international level. Whether he prefers Henshaw is not really the issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,553 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    You are required to field 23 players.

    I don't know why McCloskey is not a Joe favourite, maybe it's his defence, maybe it's something else, but no, he doesn't rate him at all.
    I suspect that he's at a standard that's capable at international level, but that's his ceiling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Not that you mentioned Henshaw, but you get my point. I'm not particularly gutted that Joe doesn't think he's as good as other options


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    You are required to field 23 players.

    I don't know why McCloskey is not a Joe favourite, maybe it's his defence, maybe it's something else, but no, he doesn't rate him at all.
    I suspect that he's at a standard that's capable at international level, but that's his ceiling.

    Does that include tackling?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,553 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    That's kind of off the point. We've been discussing whether Ulster's defensive issues are more likely because of the organisation or because none of the players can tackle. Joe thought they were capable of defending at I international level. Whether he prefers Henshaw is not really the issue.
    I think you're over-simplifying this. I doubt that Ulster players can't tackle. Four missed tackles agianst Munster is a damn good stat. Lots of teams would be popping the champagne with missed tackles in single figures.

    I don't even know why we're discussing Ulster players' tackling abilities in an international context. There's far more to the equation than just tackling. As a defensive system, Ireland primarily utilise a rush defence. That puts a lot of emphasis on trusting your teammates and ensuring you get your line speed right. But it's not always a rush defence. There are times when the drift is a better choice and the players are expected to make those decisions on the hoof. And that's just the defensive systems we're talking about.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,247 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Because Ulster fans who have been watching many of these players for a few years have seen them cope admirablywith previous defensive systems (including under Barakat not long ago) and international defensive systems, are sceptical about the idea that these players have suddenly become unable to execute a workable defensive system, and are more.minded that the defensive problems are with the system itself, given how extreme the difference on defensive quality has been.

    It want long ago Mike McComish,Lewis Stevenson, Michael Allen, Ian Humphreys (!) and Conor Joyce were regularly part of much more robust defence from Ulster.


This discussion has been closed.
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