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Biological males in women's sport

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24567…72

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    #32
    pumpkin4life
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭pumpkin4life


    It's funny, boards.ie has in my view, been reasonably good, from my experience at letting lads talk.

    I've talked about race/IQ/feminism/multiculturalism/the alt right/white nationalism/libertarianism/Trump/abortion/Tommy Robinson being not the bad lad that he is made out to be/the public sector and how shìte they can be, and with all of those topics, I never got so much as a warning from a mod. That's great, freedom of speech and all all of that.

    With one exception. Anything LGBT discussed in a negative or not even that, critical manner, and this website comes down on people like a ton of bricks. You can't criticize the LGBT lads.

    Why LGBT? Why out of all the horrible and mad controversial topics, does that one really piss a number of people off?

    It seems to be the big topic that you can't discuss on boards.ie.

    Edit: I haven't actually got a warning for LGBT yet. It just seems to be the topic that gets shut down the quickest.


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    #33
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    pumpkin4life wrote: »
    It seems to be the big topic that you can't discuss on boards.ie.

    I reckon there's a certain baby kangaroo lobbying..


    Mod-Banned


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    #34
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    In this case, it was not 3 weeks and suddenly there’s a man competing in women’s cycling. She was required to meet requirements for testosterone levels over a minimum of 12 months before she could make the switch. This is in line with standard rules for UCI sanctioned events, and there are others who have done this before. Further MtF trans athletes tend to be paranoid about making sure they are within the rules, as a single failed test for testosterone can give a hefty 2 year ban.

    She complied with the rules, was allowed to compete within those rules, and this time won.

    If a question must be asked, it is whether the rules are correct or need to be tweaked? It is very difficult to do scientific testing on this though, for the simple reason of there being so few transgender elite athletes.

    The level of testosterone allowed (10 nmol/L) is still higher than the average for female athletes (3 Nmol/L). It would be rare for a female to have a level that high without a medical condition or doping. It's not just testosterone though, there are other differences in the sexes that transition does not reverse.

    Look at this picture of NZ weight lifter Laurel Hubbard. She might fall into the acceptable levels of testosterone but can anyone look at that and think she doesn't have an advantage? I think she has set records since moving into the women's sport and is going to the Commonwealth games


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    #35
    SSr0
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭SSr0


    Tenigate wrote: »
    I reckon there's a certain baby kangaroo lobbying..

    ...or parrot .


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    #36
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    pumpkin4life wrote: »
    It's funny, boards.ie has in my view, been reasonably good, from my experience at letting lads talk.

    I've talked about race/IQ/feminism/multiculturalism/the alt right/white nationalism/libertarianism/Trump/abortion/Tommy Robinson being not the bad lad that he is made out to be/the public sector and how shìte they can be, and with all of those topics, I never got so much as a warning from a mod. That's great, freedom of speech and all all of that.

    With one exception. Anything LGBT discussed in a negative or not even that, critical manner, and this website comes down on people like a ton of bricks. You can't criticize the LGBT lads.

    Why LGBT? Why out of all the horrible and mad controversial topics, does that one really piss a number of people off?

    It seems to be the big topic that you can't discuss on boards.ie.

    Edit: I haven't actually got a warning for LGBT yet. It just seems to be the topic that gets shut down the quickest.

    Sounds more like the problem (or lack of) is with you if you are not getting warnings while everyone else is


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    #37
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    The level of testosterone allowed (10 nmol/L) is still higher than the average for female athletes (3 Nmol/L). It would be rare for a female to have a level that high without a medical condition or doping. It's not just testosterone though, there are other differences in the sexes that transition does not reverse.

    That’s the difficult one. It’s an arbitrary figure, but some women would naturally have a figure higher than that, while some men may naturally have a level lower. So, how do you set the level?

    On the other, and staying with cyclists, look up Jillian Bearden, who has competed as an elite male and elite female cyclist, and serves as a scientific test case for the IOC. She’s shown that over time that advantage diminishes to nothing. This is in part the reasoning for having to supply proof of qualifying levels of testosterone over a minimum of 12 months (longer can be requested at the discretion of the governing body).

    It’s a minefield trying to be fair to all though, that’s for sure!


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    #38
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    That’s the difficult one. It’s an arbitrary figure, but some women would naturally have a figure higher than that, while some men may naturally have a level lower. So, how do you set the level?

    On the other, and staying with cyclists, look up Jillian Bearden, who has competed as an elite male and elite female cyclist, and serves as a scientific test case for the IOC. She’s shown that over time that advantage diminishes to nothing. This is in part the reasoning for having to supply proof of qualifying levels of testosterone over a minimum of 12 months (longer can be requested at the discretion of the governing body).

    It’s a minefield trying to be fair to all though, that’s for sure!
    Now that is interesting, over how much time did any advantage diminish?


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    #39
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,127 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    The level of testosterone allowed (10 nmol/L) is still higher than the average for female athletes (3 Nmol/L). It would be rare for a female to have a level that high without a medical condition or doping. It's not just testosterone though, there are other differences in the sexes that transition does not reverse.

    Look at this picture of NZ weight lifter Laurel Hubbard. She might fall into the acceptable levels of testosterone but can anyone look at that and think she doesn't have an advantage? I think she has set records since moving into the women's sport and is going to the Commonwealth games

    she doesn't look significantly different to the two next to her


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    #40
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    That’s the difficult one. It’s an arbitrary figure, but some women would naturally have a figure higher than that, while some men may naturally have a level lower. So, how do you set the level?

    On the other, and staying with cyclists, look up Jillian Bearden, who has competed as an elite male and elite female cyclist, and serves as a scientific test case for the IOC. She’s shown that over time that advantage diminishes to nothing. This is in part the reasoning for having to supply proof of qualifying levels of testosterone over a minimum of 12 months (longer can be requested at the discretion of the governing body).

    It’s a minefield trying to be fair to all though, that’s for sure!

    It will probably take several years of properly analysing the results of sporting events where trans-athletes compete especially at elite levels to see if there is consistent advantage or not. It is just too early in the game to rule out any scenario. Testosterone may not be the only factor conferring advantage or otherwise - who knows. It will be interesting to see the outcome.


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    #41
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Now that is interesting, over how much time did any advantage diminish?

    I’ll need to dig for figures when I’m on the laptop.


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    #42
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    I accidentally tackled a mtf footieplayer in an all female five a side once. I genuinely didn't mean to but my foot caught the ball as she was taking a run and she took a tumble. I'm not sure how proud I am of that, but it happened. She was a good half foot taller than me too but like, it's football. (if you're reading this, sorry! :o)


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    #43
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    Malayalam wrote: »
    It will probably take several years of properly analysing the results of sporting events where trans-athletes compete especially at elite levels to see if there is consistent advantage or not. It is just too early in the game to rule out any scenario. Testosterone may not be the only factor conferring advantage or otherwise - who knows. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

    It will be interesting to see how it develops, but that won’t happen without the data points, and you can’t get them without people taking part in events at an elite level.


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    #44
    eurokev
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭eurokev


    Must've had some sore balls from sitting on a saddle so long


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    #45
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    koumi wrote: »
    I accidentally tackled a mtf footieplayer in an all female five a side once. I genuinely didn't mean to but my foot caught the ball as she was taking a run and she took a tumble. I'm not sure how proud I am of that, but it happened. She was a good half foot taller than me too but like, it's football. (if you're reading this, sorry! :o)

    Are you admitting to a transphobic attack on a footballer? :P (FAO: Mods, I’m joking)

    Sure part of the fun is going up against the bigger player and coming out of it with the ball.


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    #46
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    koumi wrote: »
    I accidentally tackled a mtf footieplayer in an all female five a side once. I genuinely didn't mean to but my foot caught the ball as she was taking a run and she took a tumble. I'm not sure how proud I am of that, but it happened. She was a good half foot taller than me too but like, it's football. (if you're reading this, sorry! :o)

    Very virtuous of you to post


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    #47
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    OP. From this and your other posts today it seems you either have some deep seated issues and need to talk to yourself or come out as trans, and get over it or just admit you’re a bot and a dick.


    Mod-Banned


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    #48
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    Here's an interesting article on the topic by the Washington Post.
    “People come in all shapes and sizes,” he said. “We don’t disqualify Michael Phelps for having super-long arms; that’s just a competitive advantage he has in his sport. We don’t regulate height in the WNBA or NBA; being tall is just an advantage for a center. For as long as sports have been around, there have been people who have had advantages over others. A universal level playing field does not exist.”

    I don't think I agree with the idea that being transgender is merely a biological advantage which can be likened to being a tall basketballer or a swimmer with a longer reach.


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    #49
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    Tenigate wrote: »
    Very virtuous of you to post
    you've posted in the lgbt forum making light of criminal issues, started a thread here on boards about trans issues and are in the midst of championing your very particular cause. Thought it was only appropriate. You appear to have been taking issue with me, or at least some of my posts and god only knows what for but I expect it's just somewhere for you to take your homophobic or trans angst out.

    Let me make it clear. One or two issues of antagonism does not a bully make, once it becomes sustained then it constitutes harassment.
    Why don't you just get it over with, what's your problem? Was it my defending the issue of gender fluid toilet facilities at UCD? Does that kind of stuff make you feel offended?


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    #50
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Noveight wrote: »
    Here's an interesting article on the topic by the Washington Post.



    I don't think I agree with the idea that being transgender is merely a biological advantage which can be likened to being a tall basketballer or a swimmer with a longer reach.

    And if gender is only another anomaly like long arms then why have we bothered with separate male and female sports categories thus far?


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    #51
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    koumi wrote: »
    you've posted in the lgbt forum making light of criminal issues, started a thread here on boards about trans issues and are in the midst of championing your very particular cause. Thought it was only appropriate. You appear to have been taking issue with me, or at least some of my posts and god only knows what for but I expect it's just somewhere for you to take your homophobic or trans angst out.

    Let me make it clear. One or two issues of antagonism does not a bully make, once it becomes sustained then it constitutes harassment.
    Why don't you just get it over with, what's your problem? Was it my defending the issue of gender fluid toilet facilities at UCD? Does that kind of stuff make you feel offended?

    Sorry, but I don't know you and didnt recognise the username.

    I didn't make light of crime.. i made light of thought crime.

    My previous trans post you're referring to was not about transgenders. It was about trans species, race and age.

    And yep.. my particular cause is a conservative viewpoint that respects women.


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    #52
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    heres a link to the wrestling story https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/25/mack-beggs-transgender-wrestler-wins-texas-girls-h/

    I believe wrestling is actually mixed gender up until high school, which makes sense as testosterone takes over by then and males take a giant leap physically


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    #53
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    david75 wrote: »
    OP. From this and your other posts today it seems you either have some deep seated issues and need to talk to yourself or come out as trans, and get over it or just admit you’re a bot and a dick.

    What are you talking about? Yes I'm a bot who signed up 8 years ago and I've been waiting for this day ever since


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    #54
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    todders wrote: »
    Studies you've read and verified separately to this one article?

    Can you refute mens and womens records being out of sync?


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    #55
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist




    There's another video about this that I can't find now. There was someone being interviewed on New Zealand news about this person. He said something about how unfair it was that a seven foot transgender man beat these women. The female interviewer said something like "and he beat them by a mile" as if it was a great accomplishment.

    It made me think of this. "It was a contest for children". "Yeah and Homer beat their brains out".



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    #56
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    Tenigate wrote: »
    Sorry, but I don't know you and didnt recognise the username.

    My previous trans post you're referring to was not about transgenders. It was about trans species, race and age.

    And yep.. my particular cause is a conservative viewpoint that respects women.
    I hardly expect you to be truthful, however as long as you are aware I'm glad you respect women, as a woman I appreciate it.


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    #57
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    one aspect that gives transgender athletes( male to female) an advantage is that mens sports are generally more competitive, they will have gained more experience in their previous gender


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    #58
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    It seems to me that eventually there will have to be separate trans categories. Cis-Men, Cis-Women, Trans-men and Trans-women. It's not a perfect solution but as it stands now neither women nor trans-men have much chance at competing in the two category system. It would also be helpful for sports like mixed doubles ice-dancing as a man and a transwoman pair could struggle to compete against a man and a woman due to differences in weight.


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    #59
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »


    There's another video about this that I can't find now. There was someone being interviewed on New Zealand news about this person. He said something about how unfair it was that a seven foot transgender man beat these women. The female interviewer said something like "and he beat them by a mile" as if it was a great accomplishment.

    It made me think of this. "It was a contest for children". "Yeah and Homer beat their brains out".


    She comes across as a really lovely person.
    It's such a damn hard area - individuals should be entitled to express themselves as they please, and respected, and yet so many barriers are being pushed up against that it is mentally hard to adjust.
    My gut tells me there are issues - actual biological science issues, not just the window dressing stuff. But one on one with genuine individuals like that weight lifter it is difficult to be dogmatic.


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    #60
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    Are you admitting to a transphobic attack on a footballer? :P (FAO: Mods, I’m joking)

    Sure part of the fun is going up against the bigger player and coming out of it with the ball.

    I like that I once had the ability to be that strong, for all the men wiling to feign some false sense of righteousness about us fragile women, I loved my sports and used be fairly fit. The idea of competing with mtf on the pitch initially was a bit new to me and maybe it did make me want to drive harder and maybe I did feel like she was a threat before I knew her but I can happily attest that it wasn't an issue, at least in terms of ability and yeah maybe that tackle was the point which I got over myself ;)


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    #61
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    koumi wrote: »
    maybe that tackle was the point which I got over myself ;)

    As a man, was he a good footballer?

    Or would he still have been beaten by a woman?

    Is your argument to abolish gender divisions in sport, or to allow transgenders to compete in the division of their choosing?


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