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Biological males in women's sport

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    #92
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Gbear wrote: »
    That's interesting.

    That raises the question whether power output in cycling can be taken as a proxy for general performance and whether the same would occur in other sports.

    Also, I didn't spot whether the stamina performances also level out. Do they?

    If you look at some other sports like football, the technical ability is far lower among women.
    Then you need to look at if there are other biological differences, perhaps around motor skills, or if they're explained by lower player populations or differences in training.

    It also raises the opposite question why there are so few women in motor sport or other male dominated purely skill based sports. I dunno is there any difference in genders in target shooting or that kind of thing.
    Men on average possess greater hand eye co ordination and spacial awareness skills.

    It's actually aluded to in that aussie rules video a couple of pages back.


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    #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Are there any examples of elite female athletes choosing to compete in male categories? Would a transgender female demand to compete in the male sports division even if it meant he would never be competitive or would he hide his gender identity and continue to compete as a female?

    They can't even compete in sports where mass and muscle don't matter, like darts, snooker, etc


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    #94
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I think you should watch the Louis Theroux documentary on transgender kids. There are consequences for these children if they go through puberty as the 'wrong' gender'

    Transgender is definitely a real thing, and if people are clearly identifying as a different gender to their biological sex from a young age then I think we should allow them to transition before puberty. But none of this is really relevant to the topic of biologically male athletes competing in womens sports.

    I think to keep sport as fair as possible, then women's sports should be only for people without a y chromosome. Otherwise, elite sports could become dominated by people who are mentally female but physically male, and that's distorts the competition for physically female athletes.

    Puberty blockers have long term physical consequences, infertility being one. Any study that's been done show that the vast majority of children outgrow their gender dysphoria and usually grow up to be "cis" and gay. Not to mention that not going through puberty makes future gender reassignment surgery pretty difficult for trans women if they want to go down that road. Giving these drugs to children is a bad idea and completely unethical but that's another thread in itself


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    #95
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What operation? There is no requirement to have surgery, just to lower their testosterone levels through hormone treatment. Some people argue that even that shouldn't be necessary and is a violation of their human rights.

    So would a man with naturally low testosterone levels who simply states he is a woman compete too.


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    #96
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    backspin. wrote: »
    So would a man with naturally low testosterone levels who simply states he is a woman compete too.

    If he says he is a woman then yes


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    #97
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    backspin. wrote: »
    So would a man with naturally low testosterone levels who simply states he is a woman compete too.
    No, he would not. According to the IOC, trans women have to declare their gender (at least 4 years) before they can compete. They need to keep within the testosterone guidelines one year before they begin to enter competitions, and all through their sporting career from there on in.

    On the other hand, there are no requirements for trans men to declare gender and they can compete without restriction at any time.


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    #98
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    If he says he is a woman then yes

    So not changing their name, or going through reconstruction surgery or even dressing like a woman they just announce they are a woman (even with the 4 year timeframe) and pass the testosterone test and they are fine to compete as a women. We are in crazy times. Imagine explaining that to someone who died even in the 80's. I'm not sure they would believe things could change so much in such a short time-frame. What will things be like in another 30 years.


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    #99
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    mzungu wrote: »
    No, he would not. According to the IOC, trans women have to declare their gender (at least 4 years) before they can compete. They need to keep within the testosterone guidelines one year before they begin to enter competitions, and all through their sporting career from there on in.

    On the other hand, there are no requirements for trans men to declare gender and they can compete without restriction at any time.

    The posters question was could a man with low testosterone compete as a woman and the answer is yes he could. If he declares himself a woman and sticks with it for 4 years. If he had testosterone levels within the limit naturally then he wouldn't have to do anything else really would he?


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    #100
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    The posters question was could a man with low testosterone compete as a woman and the answer is yes he could. If he declares himself a woman and sticks with it for 4 years. If he had testosterone levels within the limit naturally then he wouldn't have to do anything else really would he?
    Was that not more or less what I said? :D The four years was not mentioned in that post so the low testosterone on it's own would not be enough. Hence why I mentioned the four years. Also, there would surely need to be a legal declaration of gender as opposed to saying it in a magazine or wherever. I doubt the whole process is easy. Regardless, in the IOC's eyes it would not be a man competing as the IOC recognise that surgery does not need to take place (the law would recognise that too) to recognise a transition.


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    #101
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    mzungu wrote: »
    Was that not more or less what I said? :D The four years was not mentioned in that post so the low testosterone on it's own would not be enough. Hence why I mentioned the four years. Also, there would surely need to be a legal declaration of gender as opposed to saying it in a magazine or wherever. I doubt the whole process is easy. Regardless, in the IOC's eyes it would not be a man competing as the IOC recognise that surgery does not need to take place (the law would recognise that too) to recognise a transition.

    According to Wikipedia , nothing legal is required
    In 2015, the IOC modified these guidelines in recognition that legal recognition of gender could be difficult in countries where gender transition is not legal, and also that requiring surgery in otherwise healthy individuals "may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights".[7][8] The new guidelines require only that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility.


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    #102
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    According to Wikipedia , nothing legal is required

    Fair enough so. The long waiting time and testosterone requirements would most likely weed out anybody doing it for an unfair advantage (although I doubt this would be a regular occurrence).


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    #103
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Might it just not be better in the interim until the science is solid (which will take a fair number of years of analysing results) to have a new category at least in elite level sports (or two new categories). Athletes who identify as Female but who have one Y chromosome could compete against each other. Athletes who identify as Male but who have two X chromosomes could have a separate category where they also compete against each other. Then times and achievements, strength and records can still be logged for scientific study. It is not that the trans-athletes should be stigmatised at all, but simply that the athletes who are Female at birth should be protected, especially at elite levels, against the possibility of impossible odds. If it turns out that there is unfair advantage. Which is uncertain at this point. Otherwise birth females will become cheesed off about sport, maybe quit competing, and since sport is an area that has been traditionally male-dominated in the past, this is quite ironic. It also would enable trans athletes who identify as Male but who have two X chromosomes to compete on a more even playing field.

    One contradiction in this area is that female to male trans athletes had much less difficulty being accepted into the male arena, for the very reason that it was presumed that they would be biologically less able to pose a threat to the dominance of the birth male athletes. And yet the very opposite is the case with male to female trans athletes - they are considered to not have any particular advantage over birth females - this is contradictory logic.


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    #104
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Malayalam wrote: »
    .

    One contradiction in this area is that female to male trans athletes had much less difficulty being accepted into the male arena, for the very reason that it was presumed that they would be biologically less able to pose a threat to the dominance of the birth male athletes. And yet the very opposite is the case with male to female trans athletes - they are considered to not have any particular advantage over birth females - this is contradictory logic.

    How is that contradictory logic?To be reductive having male characteristics is a performance enhancer for more activities.


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    #105
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    How is that contradictory logic?To be reductive having male characteristics is a performance enhancer for more activities.

    I see the contradiction. A birth female (now trans FtM) is not considered to be competition in male sports - the rules for competing as trans FTM are less stringent, and have been for many years. So that implies by definition that birth males are at a competitive advantage to birth females. So to imply that birth males who take hormones for one year and identify as female have no particular advantage over birth females...aw feck it, I'm tired, work it out for yourself :)


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    #106
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    mzungu wrote: »
    Fair enough so. The long waiting time and testosterone requirements would most likely weed out anybody doing it for an unfair advantage (although I doubt this would be a regular occurrence).

    Even if they aren't doing it simply for an unfair advantage (which is probably going happen occasionally) , it's still not fair to female competitors because they will have that advantage regardless of their intentions. I suspect we will see a lot of trans competitors in the next Olympics so time will tell I guess.

    In the case of the NZ weight lifter, the previous top female in that division felt that she had to lose a lot of weight and drop down to the next weight category in order to continue her career. It's pushing out women from sports that they have worked hard for.


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    #107
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    How is that contradictory logic?To be reductive having male characteristics is a performance enhancer for more activities.

    Because female to male competitors can compete against men with no restrictions. It's acknowledged that even with supplementing testosterone they will have no advantage over the male athletes. In other words, there are other biological factors at play than testosterone which is a fact that was ignored when it's going to other way.


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    #108
    2 Scoops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 915 ✭✭✭2 Scoops


    A transgender Woman winning a cycling event who's been tweeting at news outlets all day for recognition. This person is a professor of psychology.

    https://twitter.com/rachelvmckinnon/status/1051495467979173888


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    #109
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    I say we give them their very own olympics...


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    #110
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    I saw this yesterday and remembered this thread. I think this disgraceful tbh. How could anyone look at that photo and not see a male, complete with larger body, bigger muscles, more strength than any female could naturally have. It's unfair.

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/15/trans-woman-rachel-mckinnon-cycling-world-championship/


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    #111
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    In this case, it was not 3 weeks and suddenly there’s a man competing in women’s cycling. She was required to meet requirements for testosterone levels over a minimum of 12 months before she could make the switch. This is in line with standard rules for UCI sanctioned events, and there are others who have done this before. Further MtF trans athletes tend to be paranoid about making sure they are within the rules, as a single failed test for testosterone can give a hefty 2 year ban.

    She complied with the rules, was allowed to compete within those rules, and this time won.

    If a question must be asked, it is whether the rules are correct or need to be tweaked? It is very difficult to do scientific testing on this though, for the simple reason of there being so few transgender elite athletes.
    The point is not the testosterone currently in their bodies but the advantage that their initial gender has given to their body. The development of their bodies while male gives them an advantage.

    History is full of cultures that did things to children in order for physical differences that were desired for different reasons such as a castreto singer or eunuchs.

    Not so common with women due the physical nature of their bodies but there have been and are cases but not society ones as far as I know.

    If I took a drug to be taller and larger lung capacity and then stopped before competing but retained those qualities I shouldn't be allowed compete so I think they same applies.

    The problem is some countries would drug their athletes at a young age to get such an advantage. It has happened before with Russian athletes needing gender reassignment as a result of all the drugs they were given.

    In saying all of that gender is not as binary as people think and people can have a huge imbalance compared to another person of the same gender. Hard to say one is natural and the other is not and give equal rights as they believe there gender is also natural.

    I can see the arguments and it is the people hard on either side that make things overblown.


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    #112
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    2 Scoops wrote: »
    A transgender Woman winning a cycling event who's been tweeting at news outlets all day for recognition. This person is a professor of psychology.

    https://twitter.com/rachelvmckinnon/status/1051495467979173888
    lol the size of her compared to the womb havers


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    #113
    gw80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭gw80


    Does this mean that transgender women could enter a male sandwich making competition?.


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    #114
    CinemaGuy45
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭CinemaGuy45


    Ajsoprano wrote: »
    I’d stay away from this thread. The cards will fly no matter what happens.
    I’ve probably already said too much. I’m out of here.

    Why do people keep starting these threads I think somebody somewhere is taking bets on how many posters will fall and how many pages it will last.:P


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    #115
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    lol the size of her compared to the womb havers

    Come on now, she is a lovely wee lass, the fine legs on her, bless her girly socks.


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    #116
    Jack Moore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Jack Moore


    2 Scoops wrote: »
    A transgender Woman winning a cycling event who's been tweeting at news outlets all day for recognition. This person is a professor of psychology.

    https://twitter.com/rachelvmckinnon/status/1051495467979173888

    I’m conflicted
    I went into that twitter and followed it to kati Hopkins page. She is totally against that lady being alloweyd compete so I suppose im for it ? I mean when in doubt ...

    Seriously I feel that there should be a in augmented sports division and an augmented division
    In the natural you cannot have had any hormone treatments like steroids etc and in the augmented then bobs your lobster

    So in the mma sphere we could have a fully juiced up cyborg aagins fallow Fox


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    #117
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    I just find it funny the state of the self promotion lol, "Look at me","look at me".
    Be interesting to see how this one goes, right now because of the politics everyone is all you go girl.

    A few years down the line and female sport dominated by transwomen i wonder how tolerant it will be then.


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    #118
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Calhoun wrote: »
    I just find it funny the state of the self promotion lol, "Look at me","look at me".
    Be interesting to see how this one goes, right now because of the politics everyone is all you go girl.

    A few years down the line and female sport dominated by transwomen i wonder how tolerant it will be then.

    She is tweeting like mad trying to get someone to pick up the story and say how great it is. Have a look at the cycling forums on Reddit, most people are not "you go girl" , but stating the truth that it's grossly unfair.

    Unfortunately yes, this will destroy women's sport if it continues. I suppose some people will be happy about that though :(


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    #119
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    Remember Bruce Caitlyn Jenner won some Woman of the Year award too?

    Fairly laughable and a complete injustice to the exceptional females worldwide.


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    #120
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,243 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    At 40 years of age with I could strike out for the Women's 84kg deadlift Irish record of 175kgs . With 3 months training I'd blow it out of the water.

    I work a physical job so not new to lifting.

    I'd be beating trained and highly dedicated athletes, so with years of experience and much younger that's me.

    I wouldn't impress any fellow in a powerlifting gym in an average town, at that.


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    #121
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    Sure there are a minority of people who want to be the opposite sex for what ever reason but it is not possible to do, they can pretend if they want to and get hormone treatment which will mess up their bodies, the rest of us being such great people go along with the emperor's new clothes because PC. However they should accept they are 'other' and a separate sport category for these people should be set up as competing in sport as there chosen sex and not as they biological sex is unfair to everyone.

    Oscar Wilde once said "Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."


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