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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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Comments

  • #1622
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    mad muffin wrote: »
    Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

    How dare he take the side of the hard-pressed tax payers!


  • #1623
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,055 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    salonfire wrote: »
    I think the only option left to the Government is to tax the bejasus out of us all.. 60%,70%,80%.. When the inevitable protests and objections arise, they can point to the ever demanding spending on free water, free housing and public sector pay demands.

    Only that will change the narrative in this country once and for all and soften the 'support' for the looney left spending.

    I see your point.

    If there is widespread public support for a pay rise for nurses, and if it is awarded, then specific taxes must be increased in the next Budget, or other spending cut.

    Make the public mature enough to see that spending decisions have consequences.


  • #1624
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    mad muffin wrote: »
    Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.
    The idea that this clown was actually elected and appointed a Minister is utterly reprehensible. Unless people cop on he will knock 30 years in politics at our expense


  • #1625
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    How dare he take the side of the hard-pressed tax payers!

    You think he’s on the side of the tax payer?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAAA


  • #1626
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    mad muffin wrote: »
    Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

    What's your take on the point that when the public sector pay deal was signed up to by all involved that it stipulated within it that no union would seek to initiate pay demands during the duration of the agreed deal and that should they do so, that penalties would be imposed?

    (Please try to answer without saying anything like"well how come we are spending €1B more on the childrens hospital" or anything like that. That is a fiasco, which is only going to get worse I expect but if we use that as an excuse then every public sector union should strike and every private business should look to withhold tax payments to the government)


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  • #1627
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    Tell me how wrote: »
    What's your take on the point that when the public sector pay deal was signed up to by all involved that it stipulated within it that no union would seek to initiate pay demands during the duration of the agreed deal and that should they do so, that penalties would be imposed?

    (Please try to answer without saying anything like"well how come we are spending €1B more on the childrens hospital" or anything like that. That is a fiasco, which is only going to get worse I expect but if we use that as an excuse then every public sector union should strike and every private business should look to withhold tax payments to the government)

    The nurses didn’t get what they were promised it’s simple as that.


  • #1628
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    mad muffin wrote: »
    The nurses didn’t get what they were promised it’s simple as that.

    Is it really that simple?

    Times article
    The INMO has sought pay parity with groups such as physiotherapists and speech and language therapists. They argue that their members are paid about €7,000 a year less than staff in therapy grades but work more hours.

    The INMO said nurses and midwives were the lowest-paid graduate professionals in the health service and that they earned thousands of euro less than similarly qualified health professionals, despite having a longer working week.

    INMO general secretary Phil Ní Sheaghdha said:”Ireland’s nurses and midwives are speaking with one clear voice. This vote reflects a deep frustration in our professions, which the government cannot continue to ignore.”

    “Nurses and midwives simply want to do their jobs and care for patients properly. But low pay has led to staff shortages, compromising safe care

    Nothing in that article about promises having been broken.


  • #1629
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Is it really that simple?

    Times article



    Nothing in that article about promises having been broken.

    It says it right there in the last paragraph…


  • #1630
    omega man
    Registered Users Posts: 4,709 ✭✭✭omega man


    I’ve yet to see any proposals on how to fund the demanded pay rise and without other PS follow up claims.

    All I’m hearing is just pay them without consideration along with talk about politicians pay or bankers etc etc

    Hopefully this will end up in the LC as I don’t see any alternative to a resolution.


  • #1631
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,265 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I see on the news that they are going to escalate the strike to other services on the next day, if they want to piss the rest of the country off they are going the right way about it.


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  • #1632
    Miike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Miike


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I see on the news that they are going to escalate the strike to other services on the next day, if they want to piss the rest of the country off they are going the right way about it.

    The Psychiatric nurse strike (PNA) is not an "escalation" - They are striking in their own right. INMO don't represent Psychiatric Nurses in the large.


  • #1633
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    mad muffin wrote: »
    Simon Harris’s thinly veiled threat of financial penalties for striking nurses is utterly reprehensible.

    So its ok to use fempi against teachers who strike for equal pay but not against nurses who voted to accept pay inequality but strike for better pay?


  • #1634
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,265 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Miike wrote: »
    The Psychiatric nurse strike (PNA) is not an "escalation" - They are striking in their own right. INMO don't represent Psychiatric Nurses in the large.

    It is an escalation because it means more patients will be affected.


  • #1635
    Miike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Miike


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    It is an escalation because it means more patients will be affected.

    It's almost like they're trying to highlight something. I wonder what though?

    also, it's not an escalation - it's not an intensification of strike action by those who have already striked. It's a different discipline of nursing striking in their own right, this is the first of the PNA strikes.


  • #1636
    TheRiverman
    Registered Users Posts: 6,052 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    How dare he take the side of the hard-pressed tax payers!

    His wife is a nurse.I don't know if she is in a private hospital, public hospital or private practise,but I'm sure Simon's €74000 allowances on top of his €94000 basic salary will keep her happy if she feels underpaid.


  • #1637
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

    I have no skin in the game, but realistically can anyone blame nurses who have to do a degree now being miffed at not being paid similarly to those who do have degrees like teachers and so on.

    I am sure someone will put me right.

    If you did your degree + post grad or whatever, you should be paid the same or similar to those who have that 3rd level qualification.

    What other professions might be affected does anyone know? Fire fighters, paramedics, prison officers,gardai, who? Not saying they are wrong to look for parity, but do they have to do a four year degree?


  • #1638
    TheRiverman
    Registered Users Posts: 6,052 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

    I have no skin in the game, but realistically can anyone blame nurses who have to do a degree now being miffed at not being paid similarly to those who do have degrees like teachers and so on.

    I am sure someone will put me right.

    If you did your degree + post grad or whatever, you should be paid the same or similar to those who have that 3rd level qualification.

    What other professions might be affected does anyone know? Fire fighters, paramedics, prison officers,gardai, who? Not saying they are wrong to look for parity, but do they have to do a four year degree?

    Very good point.


  • #1639
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

    I have no skin in the game, but realistically can anyone blame nurses who have to do a degree now being miffed at not being paid similarly to those who do have degrees like teachers and so on.

    I am sure someone will put me right.

    If you did your degree + post grad or whatever, you should be paid the same or similar to those who have that 3rd level qualification.

    What other professions might be affected does anyone know? Fire fighters, paramedics, prison officers,gardai, who? Not saying they are wrong to look for parity, but do they have to do a four year degree?

    Not every degree is the same. A degree in engineering is not necessarily the same as a degree in social studies. Not all engineering degrees are the same for that matter.

    Nurses do not have decision making responsibility in the same way as some of the other professions have. They do not diagnose or select treatment options.

    They do a critical role but it is a misnomer to suggest that just because it is a degree that it equates to another role in which (I feel) there is generally* more responsibility held by a person in a particular role.

    * the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.


  • #1640
    Pauliedragon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of the nurses situation but I do feel there is a lot of strange information going on. The indo had a story today and the lady saying she earns more than double in Australia just doesn't add up to me. I used to work with a few nurses over there and I was told they earn between 70-80K dollars (some less). Earning double and factoring in exchange rate she 's saying I rish nurses are on less than 24K which is simply not true. They also interviewed a nurse from Abu Dhabi which is also unfair to compare wages as they don't pay tax. If we has vast oil we would all live tax free aswell. As I said I don't know enough about their situation to take sides and if they're being ripped off good luck to them in getting what they deserve but my point is the media should be a lot more careful with what they are reporting as it comes across very biased in this instance and that can have a negative effect on the very cause they seem to be trying to help.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-earn-double-what-i-would-in-ireland-and-its-taxfree-irish-nurses-tell-us-about-the-reality-of-working-abroad-37769213.html


  • #1641
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Not every degree is the same. A degree in engineering is not necessarily the same as a degree in social studies. Not all engineering degrees are the same for that matter.

    Nurses do not have decision making responsibility in the same way as some of the other professions have. They do not diagnose or select treatment options.

    They do a critical role but it is a misnomer to suggest that just because it is a degree that it equates to another role in which (I feel) there is generally* more responsibility held by a person in a particular role.

    * the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.

    I was referring to pay scales for degree professions from the public purse. Where the parity situation becomes an issue.

    Outside the PS it is not an issue.


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  • #1642
    animaal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭animaal


    I see "supply and demand" being used as justification for nursing payrises. I.e. Nurses are leaving the country, so we need to pay more to retain them.

    Does this work the other way too? I see recruitment drives massively over-subscribed in other areas. Does this mean we're paying too much in those areas and should reduce pay (or at the very minimum freeze all increases)?


  • #1643
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    The timing couldn't be worse. Imagine giving nurses a pay raise the day before a Brexit apocalypse. Sure half the problem after the financial crash was having a public service that was overpaid compared to international norms.

    They should call it off until after Brexit. Pointless to even attempt it right now.


  • #1644
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    bilbot79 wrote: »
    The timing couldn't be worse. Imagine giving nurses a pay raise the day before a Brexit apocalypse. Sure half the problem after the financial crash was having a public service that was overpaid compared to international norms.

    They should call it off until after Brexit. Pointless to even attempt it right now.
    Union bosses have to justify the subs paid to the union and their salaries. They have to 'duke of York ' it or members start to question what's the point.


  • #1645
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,795 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    bilbot79 wrote:
    The timing couldn't be worse. Imagine giving nurses a pay raise the day before a Brexit apocalypse. Sure half the problem after the financial crash was having a public service that was overpaid compared to international norms.


    Again, what was the actual causes of the crash?


  • #1646
    animaal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭animaal


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Again, what was the actual causes of the crash?

    There were a number of contributory factors.

    Bad lending by banks.
    Bad borrowing by citizens.
    Unsustainable state spending on pay and services
    tax base was too narrow.

    It's notable that the first two items contributed approx. €60b of the €200b deficit.


  • #1647
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Not every degree is the same. A degree in engineering is not necessarily the same as a degree in social studies. Not all engineering degrees are the same for that matter.

    Nurses do not have decision making responsibility in the same way as some of the other professions have. They do not diagnose or select treatment options.

    They do a critical role but it is a misnomer to suggest that just because it is a degree that it equates to another role in which (I feel) there is generally* more responsibility held by a person in a particular role.

    * the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.

    Are you for real?? You have no god damned clue. None.

    If it wasn’t for the nurses that took care of my son immediately after his tonsils operation he would be dead.

    The anesthesiologist gave too much to my son and the nurses could tell he wasn’t breathing oroperly or getting enough oxygen post op.

    It was their training and decision making that saved him. If not for them he would be dead. We just thought he was sleeping. No doctor came in to see him. Only for the nurses.

    There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.


  • #1648
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    animaal wrote: »
    I see "supply and demand" being used as justification for nursing payrises. I.e. Nurses are leaving the country, so we need to pay more to retain them.

    Does this work the other way too? I see recruitment drives massively over-subscribed in other areas. Does this mean we're paying too much in those areas and should reduce pay (or at the very minimum freeze all increases)?

    You could argue that's what happened to the Gardai.
    Thousands of applicants. 23k starting I think.


  • #1649
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,795 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    animaal wrote: »
    There were a number of contributory factors.

    Bad lending by banks.
    Bad borrowing by citizens.
    Unsustainable state spending on pay and services
    tax base was too narrow.

    It's notable that the first two items contributed approx. €60b of the €200b deficit.

    maybe deregulation of the financial sector, encouragement by our political institutions to create a building boom etc etc etc

    maybe, 'behind every bad borrower, is a bad lender'

    again, public debt was actually in decline in the years leading up to the crash

    tax base probably was too narrow, but we were also overly reliant on unsustainable revenue streams such as stamp duty etc

    how much of our public debt was due to 'accepting' bad loans onto the public balance sheet?


  • #1650
    animaal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭animaal


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    again, public debt was actually in decline in the years leading up to the crash

    tax base probably was too narrow, but we were also overly reliant on unsustainable revenue streams such as stamp duty etc

    Agree on the second point.

    From the late 1990s, Ireland's revenue increased on the back of a bubble. Ideally, the proceeds of this bubble would have been invested for the inevitable downturn. Some of it was used to reduce debt, which is good. However, spending increased to match this unsustainable income. This was unsustainable. It was a combination of public sector unions demanding a bigger slice of the pie, and a government happy to pay them off in order to retain power.

    From 2000-2008, *current* expenditure increased from €22b to €53b.

    This graph shows the trends in revenue and spending leading up to the crash. Just as revenue was an unsustainable bubble, so was expenditure.

    Attempting to return spending to the levels seen during the bubble is a recipe for disaster.


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  • #1651
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    mad muffin wrote: »
    Are you for real?? You have no god damned clue. None.

    If it wasn’t for the nurses that took care of my son immediately after his tonsils operation he would be dead.

    The anesthesiologist gave too much to my son and the nurses could tell he wasn’t breathing oroperly or getting enough oxygen post op.

    It was their training and decision making that saved him. If not for them he would be dead. We just thought he was sleeping. No doctor came in to see him. Only for the nurses.

    There’s aslo nurses that work autonomously, that have masters. ANP’s. Nurse prescribers. And so on.
    And this happens multiple times on wards .,The nurses alert to a danger and to the deterioration of a patient , they choose to call for a medic and often have to hassle and poke and prod the medical team to act . They pick up on mistakes made by junior doctors and guide them to something they have missed .
    They make decisions daily and give CPR and other life saving acts to save patients on a regular basis .


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