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Why wouldn't you buy an Alfa Romeo? (keep it civilized)

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24567

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A lot of people simple don't like the styling either


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    #33
    The Satanist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 693 ✭✭✭The Satanist


    Dakotabigone wrote: »
    Know a lad that has one and he constantly bangs on about the emotional attachment he has with Alfa’s. Claiming you can’t be a true Alfista unless you’re emotionally attached to it.

    I think that would put me off owning one too, what a weirdo


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    #34
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A lot of people simple don't like the styling either

    I think the opposite : it's mini-me Ghibli look is great.

    And I'm still boggled that people quote reliability as a factor and mentioning French cars in the same breadth.

    We have two German "premium" cars and two Renault's in this house. Without doubt the German cars win, hands down. For repair bills.

    The Audi wins on interiors, against everyone - and have done for 20 years.

    But the Renault trundles on: one petrol, one diesel. So popular is that Renault 1.5Dci engine that the vast majority of that well-known brand with the 3-pointed star at the front.......is fitted with them. So thus French car = bad, German car = good is complete nonsense. Both my local Indys freely admit "that without German cars they'd have no work". Take from that what you will.

    And the Alfa is another victim of this "fake news" on reputation.

    I've a friend of mine only recently retired his 02 146.......not fir any other reason than .....he got an 07 one for a half-a- peanut.

    The issue here and the UK is the dealers lack of interest. As soon as they they whiff of another brand available, they drop it and change the signage......and it's been like that here since the '80s.

    The depreciation is the nett result. Used, they're great. New I'd love one, but the knock you'd take is very hard to swallow.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #35
    LillySV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭LillySV


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Because the average Irish car buyer is more concerned with brand and size snobbery than most other countries.

    So while you say those Alfas compete against the BMWs, in Ireland that just isnt true. While the inherent merits of both can be argued, it isnt really a discussion relevant to the Irish buyer. Its a non contest. He buys the BMW. Because of an unhealthy keeping-up-with-the-Murphys, and ego culture where people link the status and success of a person to a greater degree than most on the car they drive.

    And BMW has acquired the status over the years of the gold standard for arrivistes. It doesnt matter whether it deserves it or not. Having gained that status means that it simply is.

    The only other attribute that matters, is size. He likes his longer bigger wider car, because bigger conveys to similarly simple minded people as the driver, that he is a big person. SUV preferable. Big saloon otherwise. Much of the rest of the world (equivalent economically to Ireland), happily buys smaller or lesser regarded marques, because it is chosen on the merits of their need in a car. Not to boost their ego and perception of themselves in the social pecking order. The Irish motorist is simply less sophisticated than most.

    No it’s quite simple, Alfa Romeo are cheaply made basic troublesome cars ...bmws/Mercs are well made solid comfortable fast great handling cars... that’s why people want them more...


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    #36
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    LillySV wrote: »
    No it’s quite simple, Alfa Romeo are cheaply made basic troublesome cars ...bmws/Mercs are well made solid comfortable fast great handling cars... that’s why people want them more...

    Genuine question. What are you basing that on? BMW regularly come at the VERY bottom of reliability surveys. Mercedes are somewhat better but they are no Lexus. Sit in a 166 and tell me that was a cheaply made car. They are 20 years old now and still look and feel great.

    The Giulia with the Lusso pack and walnut inserts is the best looking interior in it's class. Materials feel great. Have you been in one?

    As for handling...the Giulia has won every group test that it has been in regarding handling and ride comfort. I'm just trying to get a gauge on how people get this stuff into their heads.


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    #37
    LillySV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭LillySV


    MTBD wrote: »
    Genuine question. What are you basing that on? BMW regularly come at the VERY bottom of reliability surveys. Mercedes are somewhat better but they are no Lexus. Sit in a 166 and tell me that was a cheaply made car. They are 20 years old now and still look and feel great.

    The Giulia with the Lusso pack and walnut inserts is the best looking interior in it's class. Materials feel great. Have you been in one?

    As for handling...the Giulia has won every group test that it has been in regarding handling and ride comfort. I'm just trying to get a gauge on how people get this stuff into their heads.

    Do ya own afew or do ya sell them? What reliability surveys are the bmws at the bottom? I have a bmw and haven’t spent a single penny on it in over 3 years ownership! Our second car is a corolla and it has
    Cost me afew hundred in the same time period! Dont get me wrong , I’d love to buy some Alfa’s as pretty but they do have really bad reliability reports... and depreciation vs cost makes them a bad buy.


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    #38
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    LillySV wrote: »
    Do ya own afew or do ya sell them? What reliability surveys are the bmws at the bottom? I have a bmw and haven’t spent a single penny on it in over 3 years ownership! Our second car is a corolla and it has
    Cost me afew hundred in the same time period! Dont get me wrong , I’d love to buy some Alfa’s as pretty but they do have really bad reliability reports... and depreciation vs cost makes them a bad buy.

    I've owned 5 of them. I've never had a major mechanical issue with them. Piston rings went on a 200k mile 166 so that got the scrapper but everything else was perfect on it.

    What I find about Alfas is that they always have reliable engines and gearboxes. But the most common engines were the twin Sparks and they liked oil and cambelt changes. And people who don't like doing maintenance are going to wreck them. And they did and then blamed the manufacturer. But the modern Alfas have normal timing belt and oil intervals. The only troublesome Alfa engines or gearboxes that have come out in the last 30 years were entirely GM units that came from Vectras.

    I don't want to get into BMW slating as it's requested in the OP but if you Google "BMW least reliable" you will find the results of last year's JD Power. I've seen them languishing in numerous other surveys too. Audi are usually right there with them. Taking into account the known issues with the BMW diesel engines over the last 10 years I think that is entirely believable. BMW have made some shocking engines over the last 20 years. Jalopnik have a great article about it that details all of the problems with their most common engines.

    When I think of reliability the main thing I am concerned with is engine and gearbox. Everything else is secondary and Alfa are good in both of those areas.


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    #39
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,260 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    MTBD wrote: »
    LillySV wrote: »
    No it’s quite simple, Alfa Romeo are cheaply made basic troublesome cars ...bmws/Mercs are well made solid comfortable fast great handling cars... that’s why people want them more...

    Genuine question. What are you basing that on? BMW regularly come at the VERY bottom of reliability surveys. Mercedes are somewhat better but they are no Lexus. Sit in a 166 and tell me that was a cheaply made car. They are 20 years old now and still look and feel great.

    The Giulia with the Lusso pack and walnut inserts is the best looking interior in it's class. Materials feel great. Have you been in one?

    As for handling...the Giulia has won every group test that it has been in regarding handling and ride comfort. I'm just trying to get a gauge on how people get this stuff into their heads.

    I owned a 166 at circa 3 years old. Overall it had its faults but was pretty well finished and handled great for such a comfortable big car.
    Silly things let it down though and kinda ruined the experience.
    They are rare now. Most have rusted away or were scrapped.


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    #40
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Because the average Irish car buyer is more concerned with brand and size snobbery than most other countries.

    So while you say those Alfas compete against the BMWs, in Ireland that just isnt true. While the inherent merits of both can be argued, it isnt really a discussion relevant to the Irish buyer. Its a non contest. He buys the BMW. Because of an unhealthy keeping-up-with-the-Murphys, and ego culture where people link the status and success of a person to a greater degree than most on the car they drive.

    And BMW has acquired the status over the years of the gold standard for arrivistes. It doesnt matter whether it deserves it or not. Having gained that status means that it simply is.

    The only other attribute that matters, is size. He likes his longer bigger wider car, because bigger conveys to similarly simple minded people as the driver, that he is a big person. SUV preferable. Big saloon otherwise. Much of the rest of the world (equivalent economically to Ireland), happily buys smaller or lesser regarded marques, because it is chosen on the merits of their need in a car. Not to boost their ego and perception of themselves in the social pecking order. The Irish motorist is simply less sophisticated than most.

    Utter nonsense.


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    #41
    LillySV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭LillySV


    MTBD wrote: »
    I've owned 5 of them. I've never had a major mechanical issue with them. Piston rings went on a 200k mile 166 so that got the scrapper but everything else was perfect on it.

    What I find about Alfas is that they always have reliable engines and gearboxes. But the most common engines were the twin Sparks and they liked oil and cambelt changes. And people who don't like doing maintenance are going to wreck them. And they did and then blamed the manufacturer. But the modern Alfas have normal timing belt and oil intervals. The only troublesome Alfa engines or gearboxes that have come out in the last 30 years were entirely GM units that came from Vectras.

    I don't want to get into BMW slating as it's requested in the OP but if you Google "BMW least reliable" you will find the results of last year's JD Power. I've seen them languishing in numerous other surveys too. Audi are usually right there with them. Taking into account the known issues with the BMW diesel engines over the last 10 years I think that is entirely believable. BMW have made some shocking engines over the last 20 years. Jalopnik have a great article about it that details all of the problems with their most common engines.

    When I think of reliability the main thing I am concerned with is engine and gearbox. Everything else is secondary and Alfa are good in both of those areas.

    But If I google a cough I’ll probably be told it’s cancer! I’m telling you I’ve spent nothing on my Bmw, your saying you’ve spent little on your Alfa’s... yet google says different! In fairness I think image comes into or many times .. for instance I’ve had to get my brake calipers freed on the corolla before and I’ve a friend with an Audi who turned around a month or two later and said I seem to be having trouble with my corolla! And this same mans Audi visits his mechanic at least once a month! And he’l tell ya it’s very reliable!!


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    #42
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    So...why would YOU not buy one and end up with a BMW/Audi instead? Is it the brand image? The pub talk about reliability? If you bought a 3-Series or an A4 in the last couple of years, did you even consider a Giulia in the lead up to the final decision?

    TCO of an Alfa would be much bigger. Not because I expect to spend more time and money on maintenance, but it will be severely impacted by galactic depreciation. Plus number of dealerships servicing those cars.


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    #43
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    LillySV wrote: »
    But If I google a cough I’ll probably be told it’s cancer! I’m telling you I’ve spent nothing on my Bmw, your saying you’ve spent little on your Alfa’s... yet google says different! In fairness I think image comes into or many times .. for instance I’ve had to get my brake calipers freed on the corolla before and I’ve a friend with an Audi who turned around a month or two later and said I seem to be having trouble with my corolla! And this same mans Audi visits his mechanic at least once a month! And he’l tell ya it’s very reliable!!

    Oh I do completely agree there about perception. A friend of the family bought a 156 and he had some minor problems that didn't ever leave him stranded or anything like that. He just started slating it non stop saying how he should have known better than to get an Alfa. Even I find it hard to escape the wrath of confirmation bias. I sometimes have a small issue and immediately the reputation of poor reliability enters my head. Even though its just a normal wear and tear or old part. It's very hard to not let preconceived notions cloud judgement. I still have a hard time accepting that Subarus aren't reliable because their reputation keeps telling me they are. (I found out the hard way that the reported head gasket issues are very real)

    That said we did have a BMW 320d in the family and it was shockingly bad. Just constant issues from day one. I know there are good ones out there that will never cause a day of trouble though but I know too many people who have had issues with them once they go over 100,000 miles.


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    #44
    LillySV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭LillySV


    MTBD wrote: »
    Oh I do completely agree there about perception. A friend of the family bought a 156 and he had some minor problems that didn't ever leave him stranded or anything like that. He just started slating it non stop saying how he should have known better than to get an Alfa. Even I find it hard to escape the wrath of confirmation bias. I sometimes have a small issue and immediately the reputation of poor reliability enters my head. Even though its just a normal wear and tear or old part. It's very hard to not let preconceived notions cloud judgement. I still have a hard time accepting that Subarus aren't reliable because their reputation keeps telling me they are. (I found out the hard way that the reported head gasket issues are very real)

    That said we did have a BMW 320d in the family and it was shockingly bad. Just constant issues from day one. I know there are good ones out there that will never cause a day of trouble though but I know too many people who have had issues with them once they go over 100,000 miles.

    Never knew Subaru’s had problems... just as u said, I heard they were very reliable... just very thirsty !


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    #45
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    LillySV wrote: »
    Never knew Subaru’s had problems... just as u said, I heard they were very reliable... just very thirsty !

    Subarus feel well built until you have a catastrophic engine failure that will cost thousands to fix. 2.5 litre turbo petrols and their boxer diesels are ticking time bombs.not sure if they ever sorted the diesels but the 2.5 had head gasket issues for years. Unbuyable machines second hand which still pains me as I really want another.


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    #46
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Never owned an Alfa but the guy in the flat downstairs did.

    He wanted to sell it and decided it would be a good idea to wash the engine bay before he took pics to post on adverts/donedeal.

    He sold it alright.. To a scrapyard! The small bucket of hot soapy water and a paintbrush he used was enough to fry the ECU and most of the other electrics!


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    #47
    ShadowHearth
    Registered Users Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Never owned an Alfa but the guy in the flat downstairs did.

    He wanted to sell it and decided it would be a good idea to wash the engine bay before he took pics to post on adverts/donedeal.

    He sold it alright.. To a scrapyard! The small bucket of hot soapy water and a paintbrush he used was enough to fry the ECU and most of the other electrics!

    The guys sounds like a proper tool.


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    #48
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    ShadowHearth wrote: »
    The guys sounds like a proper tool.

    A tool without tools! He kept knocking on my door to borrow stuff. IIRC an ECU was going to cost more than the car was worth. Think the carpets got wet also.

    Engine bay looked grand though! :-)


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    #49
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I ran a 155 2.0 from new in 1996 for 6 years, wonderful car, no reliability issues at all.

    Not tempted by most of their offerings since. The Giulia is nice.

    The absence of a dealer network is a problem, and you'd have to keep it forever as it would be worth nothing after 2 or 3 years, but I like to buy new and keep for a long time anyhow.


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    #50
    Krombopulos Michael
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Krombopulos Michael


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »

    The absence of a dealer network is a problem.......

    This is the reason I haven't bought an Alfa, as I wanted a Stelvio, but dealers are too far, especially when it comes time to service.


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    #51
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    The depreciation thing is being exaggerated here also. If they depreciate that badly how come I can never find a nicely specified one for cheap? A well specified 159 TI will hold it's value just as well as any 3 series or C-Class with similar spec. 156 GTAs are approaching e46 M3 money in the UK despite being a much cheaper car originally. The low spec ones do lose a good bit of money but don't all manufacturers? Volvo's are the worst of any brand I know of for depreciation but it doesn't stop people buying them in large numbers.

    Anyway even if it's true if you buy a new car an extra 3-4k in depreciation isn't going to make much difference over 3-5 years. And they come better specified for equal money anyway.

    The dealer network is the problem. They are too few and far between and they all have crap ancient buildings.


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    #52
    ste
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭ste


    I don't think the Guilia will depreciate rapidly TBH. It's rare & desirable here even judging by comments on this thread.
    Its a pity more petrols haven't been sold as it would be a good alternative option in a few years for myself!


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    #53
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    ste wrote: »
    I don't think the Guilia will depreciate rapidly TBH. It's rare & desirable here even judging by comments on this thread.
    Its a pity more petrols haven't been sold as it would be a good alternative option in a few years for myself!

    It is only desirable if it is cheap. All the lads here mentioned they would get one once slightly used and massively depreciated.


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    #54
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    They don’t make anything large enough (ohysically and engine wise ) for my tastes
    Resale is horrible
    Unreliable implementations of a lot of new technologies
    No V8’s or larger i the lineup.


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    #55
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    I would buy a new petrol Alfa alright, rare as hen's teeth though. Some lovely looking cars at the moment that are very nice to drive by the sounds of things. Prob a little overpriced for the spec in the segment they are in though


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    #56
    magic_murph
    Registered Users Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭magic_murph


    If it's not good enough for taxi drivers it's not good enough for me


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    #57
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    OSI wrote: »
    So an extra 100 quid a month over the 3 years. "Would you like a BMW 3 series or Audi A4 for x, or would you like to pay an extra €100 a month for the next 3 years to drive an Alfa Romeo instead?"

    Well first of all that is €83 a month and more likely to be a lot less than that in reality. Buyers get lower spec in the BMW/Audi/Merc for the same money on day 1. I specified a BMW 330i to the same level as the Giulia Veloce in late 2017. By the time you had the BMW up to the same spec it was €67k vs €57k for the more powerful, lighter, faster, better riding and handling Giulia. Why would you pay €10k extra just to drive a BMW when you could have the Alfa? Lexus is similarly well specified but they can't seem to translate that into sales either.


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    #58
    fancy pigeon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,861 ✭✭✭fancy pigeon


    The problem I found is not the cars, but the people who have them in most cases just let them run into the ground (thankfully there are a handful that look after them to perfection and would restore your faith in mechanical sympathy). And in other cases, the people who are meant to look after these cars just simply do not care.

    Case in example: I used to have a 166 2.5 V6. What a glorious sound from the engine, but the car had received a cosmetic bang in the rear quarter that deemed it a write off. The car had been looked after all its life by the garage that sold the car. When I went to change the timing belt I discovered there were bolts missing, covers not put back right, wrong bolts used etc. The final straw was the bolt for the idler pulley that was mangled badly and took some time to remove. The tip of a very large iceberg of negligence on the car in question. This was an Alfa Romeo dealer (that I won't name), not an indy or a group of chancers. Although I think the latter would definitely apply to said dealer

    The final straw was with a 156 SW that needed an engine. After spending considerable time making sure the engine was suitable, fit for use and fitting the damn thing we gave it a test drive. It lasted 6 miles before the replacement engine went bang (knocking horrendously/oil pressure gone)

    I've never had one since as that SW incident is still very fresh in my mind


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    #59
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    MTBD wrote: »
    Well first of all that is €83 a month

    €3k-€4k over 3 years is €83-€111/month.
    MTBD wrote: »
    and more likely to be a lot less than that in reality.

    @R.O.R. did state that the projected depreciation for Giulia will be much higher.


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    #60
    MTBD
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭MTBD


    grogi wrote: »
    €3k-€4k over 3 years is €83-€111/month.



    @R.O.R. did state that the projected depreciation for Giulia will be much higher.

    Just looking at 2017 model 320d and Giulia diesels on Autotrader. Literally dozens upon dozens of BMWs for sale for between £15-19k. There is only one Giulia below £20k and most are priced between £21k and £22k. Now they cost basically the same first day. To me that would suggest BMW amazing resale values are greatly exaggerated and Alfa Giulia resale value is actually pretty decent.


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    #61
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    MTBD wrote: »
    Just looking at 2017 model 320d and Giulia diesels on Autotrader. Literally dozens upon dozens of BMWs for sale for between £15-19k. There is only one Giulia below £20k and most are priced between £21k and £22k. Now they cost basically the same first day. To me that would suggest BMW amazing resale values are greatly exaggerated and Alfa Giulia resale value is actually pretty decent.

    What I see is an advertised value... Time will show if it will sell :)


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