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Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

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    #1382
    daddy pig
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭daddy pig


    reg114 wrote: »
    How Cronin has amassed so many caps without being able to consistently throw accurate darts into a lineout is a mystery. Hes terrific in the loose and score loads of tries for Leinster but its an unforgivable flaw that he cant throw. Id say Schmidt has just lost patience with him, particularly after one of his errant throws cost Ireland a try against Italy.

    Thats a lazy stereotype at this stage. Anyone who has watched Cronin over the past year or two will know this has not been an issue while playing for Leinster.


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    #1383
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    reg114 wrote: »
    How Cronin has amassed so many caps without being able to consistently throw accurate darts into a lineout is a mystery. Hes terrific in the loose and score loads of tries for Leinster but its an unforgivable flaw that he cant throw. Id say Schmidt has just lost patience with him, particularly after one of his errant throws cost Ireland a try against Italy.
    There is no real alternative of a suitable standard. As someone said earlier, if Strauss had managed to play another few years Cronin would have a lot less caps.


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    #1384
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,600 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Leinster and Ireland have a pretty elite lineout on the lifting side which helps paper over the cracks.


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    #1385
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Scannell is a comfortably better hooker for me anyway.

    He must have performed exceptionally poorly for the coaches to completely jettison him, if it actually was related to that performance. No one outside the camp really has a clue what he was expected to do by the setup and how close he was to that, worth remembering.


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    #1386
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Zzippy wrote: »
    I guess Toner might have caught the overthrows that no one else got near, but then he wasn't playing, and apart from that there is nothing certain about your statement above.

    Or you know, someone who can just time their jumps remotely adequately.

    If a jump at its apex is high enough to win the ball but the jumper is dropping before the ball arrives, then it’s not an overthrow. It’s either inconsistent throwing technique, a bad jump or a bad lift.


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    #1387
    Former Coach
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭Former Coach


    arsebiscuits1 wrote: »
    If Aki were to drop I'd assume it would be Ringrose Farrell combo with Ringrose at 12.

    His versatility is a bit understated I think because he's such a good 13, but his intelligence for the game would allow him to slot in 12. Especially with a fella like Farrell playing outside him

    Ringrose at 12............

    No,just no! He's by far the best 13 in the country both in attack and defence. Absolutely not for me.


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    #1388
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,578 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    I feal real sorry for Cronin , just as I did when he came off - he's been a super player particularly for Lienster - and anyone who has played sport will know how he must feal - hopefully he comes back stronger but it will be tough.


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    #1389
    Mr Tickle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Former Coach wrote: »
    Ringrose at 12............

    No,just no! He's by far the best 13 in the country both in attack and defence. Absolutely not for me.

    Agreed. If we had to move a 13 in i'd choose Chris. He's got the frame to do the crashball job that we need from our 12.


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    #1390
    arsebiscuits1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Former Coach wrote: »
    Ringrose at 12............

    No,just no! He's by far the best 13 in the country both in attack and defence. Absolutely not for me.

    Fair play to you completely disregarding the first part of my point..........

    Obviously I want Ringrose at 13. I wouldn't want him playing anywhere else.

    But if Aki drops then we're down to no established inside centres.

    Chris Farrell is a far better 13 than 12 and Garry can still bring a huge amount to that position


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    #1391
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Or you know, someone who can just time their jumps remotely adequately.

    If a jump at its apex is high enough to win the ball but the jumper is dropping before the ball arrives, then it’s not an overthrow. It’s either inconsistent throwing technique, a bad jump or a bad lift.

    Except at least one of Cronin's overthrows was well above anyone's reach, and the other was maybe in Toner's reach. If only Toner had been playing...


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    #1392
    reg114
    Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭reg114


    daddy pig wrote: »
    Thats a lazy stereotype at this stage. Anyone who has watched Cronin over the past year or two will know this has not been an issue while playing for Leinster.

    But we're talking about his lineout abilities for Ireland. His throw is not good. Best isnt a world class lineout merchant either mind you, but its better than Cronin's.


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    #1393
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Murray Kinsella saying this squad is only for round 4, not rounds 4&5


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    #1394
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,009 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    There might be a bit of confirmation bias at play but really we haven't a f*cking clue, perhaps we have a confirmation bias that management has a confirmation bias.

    All I know is from experience if you get labelled with any particular weakness at any point, you can overcome the weakness and consistently avoid it 99% of the time but when it gets exposed 1% of the time there will always be somebody waiting to have their bias confirmed so they can feel comfortable again.

    It's hard to create an environment where that negativity doesn't creep in, if only we could wipe Management's memory once a season with that device from MIB. Or if they were actually just using artificial intelligence for selection, then we would know it was perfect and unbiased.


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    #1395
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Buer wrote: »
    I'd never have him starting for Ireland and would readily go with Best and Scannell (and possibly Herring) ahead of him

    I see this trotted out a lot but I never see any justification. According to rugbypass, his lineout stats are the same as Best's in 2018, he carries far more, makes many more tackles, beats more defenders, etc etc. He's been instrumental for Leinster, playing almost twice as many minutes as Best does for Ulster.

    Yet I read "he's only an impact sub" all the time.


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    #1396
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I see this trotted out a lot but I never see any justification. According to rugbypass, his lineout stats are the same as Best's in 2018, he carries far more, makes many more tackles, beats more defenders, etc etc. He's been instrumental for Leinster, playing almost twice as many minutes as Best does for Ulster.

    Yet I read "he's only an impact sub" all the time.

    Maybe playing international rugby is harder than being part of the all-conquering Leinster side.


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    #1397
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Cronin had a bad game! No doubt. So, he's dropped into the abyss!
    Murray is dog**** for 3 games and......
    I think Cronin will always only be a sub at international level.
    It's not a certainty he goes to Japan either.
    Murray is apparently undroppable, no matter how slow and ponderous he is and regardless of several grounded passes.
    If Marmion starts this week, I think we will win.
    If Murray starts, I'm not very confident.


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    #1398
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,009 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Maybe playing international rugby is harder than being part of the all-conquering Leinster side.

    I mean it definitely is, test rugby is the Pinnacle obviously.

    But then one performance doesn't make a good statistic, has he been this bad in his previous substitute appearances at test level?


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    #1399
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    joseywhales wrote: »
    I mean it definitely is, test rugby is the Pinnacle obviously.

    But then one performance doesn't make a good statistic, has he been this bad in his previous substitute appearances at test level?

    Not "this" bad. But has he been great in those appearnces? He's come on and done a job.

    Stuart McCloskey is a great, pivotal player for Ulster this season. I wouldn't argue for him for the international team. Maybe the same goes for Cronin.


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    #1400
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Maybe playing international rugby is harder than being part of the all-conquering Leinster side.

    Did you miss this part?
    According to rugbypass, his lineout stats are the same as Best's in 2018, he carries far more, makes many more tackles, beats more defenders, etc etc.

    His stats playing for Ireland in 2018 were the same for lineouts, and much better on field. Rugbypass doesn't publish scrums won/lost or breakdown work though.

    Also,
    But has he been great in those appearnces? He's come on and done a job.
    This doesn't apply to Scannell and Best?


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    #1401
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    See, I don't see anyone claiming that Cronin is the best thrower ever, or that he played well against Italy.

    The issue is that nothing about his performance was so bad that he should be dropped from the wider squad entirely. There's simply no way that he's dropped only because of the Italy game.

    With Best coming back in and Scannell on the bench, Herring isn't even going to feature. It would have been no big hardship to pick Scannell, keep Cronin in camp and come up with some Joe-speak about giving as many guys a run as possible. Dropping Cronin was a very deliberate course of action and I would be surprised if he goes to the RWC now.


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    #1402
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,284 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Maybe playing international rugby is harder than being part of the all-conquering Leinster side.

    Players like Cronin are the reason it’s an all-conquering Leinster side.


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    #1403
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,961 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    That squad is surprisingly light on test experience. Only about a dozen players have 30 or more caps. There are some players that I am surprised have so few as they seem to have been around for ages.


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    #1404
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's only in the last two years that (imho) Schmidt has started to loosen up and start giving more players gametime.


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    #1405
    Mr Tickle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Former Former wrote: »
    See, I don't see anyone claiming that Cronin is the best thrower ever, or that he played well against Italy.

    The issue is that nothing about his performance was so bad that he should be dropped from the wider squad entirely. There's simply no way that he's dropped only because of the Italy game.

    With Best coming back in and Scannell on the bench, Herring isn't even going to feature. It would have been no big hardship to pick Scannell, keep Cronin in camp and come up with some Joe-speak about giving as many guys a run as possible. Dropping Cronin was a very deliberate course of action and I would be surprised if he goes to the RWC now.

    on that last point, maybe that's what's happening. Joe wants to get Scannell some time. maybe it's all about WC prep, maybe Cronin's form has something to do with it. So he decides to give Herring (as a WC option) a couple of weeks in camp to stay up to date on the systems.
    It seems like a harsh way to man manage Cronin but maybe it's there as an incentive.
    Or Joe hates his ginger guts. who knows?


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    #1406
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's only in the last two years that (imho) Schmidt has started to loosen up and start giving more players gametime.

    in 2018 he capped 6 players
    in 2017 he capped 14 players


    in 2016, 19 caps

    your recollection is incorrect


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    #1407
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    in 2018 he capped 6 players
    in 2017 he capped 14 players


    in 2016, 19 caps

    your recollection is incorrect

    Have you got 2014 and 2015? I'm thinking of noticing new players in the six nations, but he probably caps more in the AIs

    Also, caps isn't gametime, if talking about 'correct' or 'incorrect' :)


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    #1408
    Exclamation Marc
    Registered Users Posts: 11,291 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    in 2018 he capped 6 players
    in 2017 he capped 14 players


    in 2016, 19 caps

    your recollection is incorrect

    Post World Cup (and cycle), you will always cap more players so 2016 would always be higher.


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    #1409
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Exclamation Marc wrote: »
    Post World Cup (and cycle), you will always cap more players so 2016 would always be higher.

    exactly my point


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    #1410
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have you got 2014 and 2015? I'm thinking of noticing new players in the six nations, but he probably caps more in the AIs

    Also, caps isn't gametime, if talking about 'correct' or 'incorrect' :)

    yeah fair point.... but i suppose im extrapolating new caps as a measure of the established players playing less games.... in that the less new players are capped, the more established players play.

    so 2015 was 3 players capped in the 6N, but that has to be looked at from the point of view of RWC

    2014 had 12 new caps.

    i can see something similar this year... Jack Carty is the only new cap this year so far... and with two 6N games left i cant see anyone else being capped in this comp... possibly 1 or 2 more in the summer series


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    #1411
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    Carbery is out per Newstalk


This discussion has been closed.
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