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Frugality and Irish Society

12357

Comments

  • #122
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Actually, Greece was the first. Greece is predominantly East Orthodox, as far as I know, a religion that shares many commanilities with Roman Catholicism - including Purgatory - the ultimate case of "Buy now, pay later" and a long list of saints which will intervene on your behalf.

    Then there was the famous/noxious initialism P. I.G.S-Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. And now Italy is in trouble... There is a pattern here.

    Nobody wants to be anti-Catholic, we've had far too much of that in history, and again in this New Atheist period. But it shouldn't surprise anyone if religion has affected cultural norms. It's just an interesting sociological phenomenon, Max Weber was mentioned earlier. He wrote fairly convincingly about this.

    Marx was more convincing - rather than the Protestant work ethic producing capitalism, capitalism produced the Protestant work ethic. I don’t accept much of Marx but the idea that human society and morality is a mask on top of economic reality makes some sense.

    Moving on from 19C just so theories the debate here is about Irish are frugal or profligate or not.

    The data suggests relatively frugal.


  • #123
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    I think a lot of Irish people are frugal with the things that don't show like heating the house and hot water, but will spend freely on what can be seen by others, like socializing, cars and weddings. I'd rather be comfortable in my own home.


  • #124
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    I think a lot of Irish people are frugal with the things that don't show like heating the house and hot water, but will spend freely on what can be seen by others, like socializing, cars and weddings. I'd rather be comfortable in my own home.

    I would well believe this. Some housemates I had down the years were headwrecks when it came to heating. I wanted to say “It’s January and there’s four of us living here, it’s worth the extra tenner each or whatever to not be shivering in our own home”.


  • #125
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Actually, Greece was the first. Greece is predominantly East Orthodox, as far as I know, a religion that shares many commanilities with Roman Catholicism - including Purgatory - the ultimate case of "Buy now, pay later" and a long list of saints which will intervene on your behalf.

    Then there was the famous/noxious initialism P. I.G.S-Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. And now Italy is in trouble... There is a pattern here.

    Nobody wants to be anti-Catholic, we've had far too much of that in history, and again in this New Atheist period. But it shouldn't surprise anyone if religion has affected cultural norms. It's just an interesting sociological phenomenon, Max Weber was mentioned earlier. He wrote fairly convincingly about this.

    Well my girlfriend's Greek so I know there are differences in the religions.

    There's no doubt religion influences society (obviously) but you're making a grand claim about Catholicism being the reason for economic instability and recession. You're only taking recent examples but many times in the UK (Protestant) or America have went through terrible recessions. The UK was also called the sick man of Europe at one point.


  • #126
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    Well documented does not make it any less dubious than any other 19th century theory of religious, racial or ethnic superiority.

    It's only because of political correctness that's its viewed as dubious, anything which suggest people are in anyway different is frowned upon by the politically correct


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  • #127
    Agricola
    Registered Users Posts: 6,547 ✭✭✭Agricola


    We're a very insecure race of people who are obsessed with impressing others. That, and we've only very recently came into wealth after never having a pot to piss in. That's about it.

    Another thing which separates us from all these frugal Scandinavian and Teutonic people, even the British to a large extent, is that we don't value frugality to any degree. I had a Swiss neighbour who was probably the most frugal man I've ever met. He took it on himself to do everything, rather than hire or pay people to do the work 10 times faster than he could. It wasn't a question of money either, both he and his wife had good salaries and could certainly afford to pay to get driveways paved, fences put up, garden shed's erected, walls built, outhouses renovated etc etc but he would always get the materials and slowly but surely do the work himself. Sometimes it was the equivalent of burrowing out of prison with a spoon, but he still persisted and eventually got the job done.

    I honestly don't think an Irish person exists who, with the means at their disposal, would take this approach to home improvement. Without fail, we'd throw money at it and get it done asap. Because most of us don't take pride in doing something ourselves or saving money, we take pride in having the money to pay someone else to do it really quickly!


  • #128
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    It's only because of political correctness that's its viewed as dubious, anything which suggest people are in anyway different is frowned upon by the politically correct

    Your theory isn’t politically incorrect. It’s disproven.


  • #129
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    It’s always interesting to see how most people who don’t have the data on their side react to data. No change in opinion.


  • #130
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Agricola wrote: »
    We're a very insecure race of people who are obsessed with impressing others.

    You probably need to leave the country. Try Las Vegas or LA. Monaco etc.
    I honestly don't think an Irish person exists who, with the means at their disposal, would take this approach to home improvement. Without fail, we'd throw money at it and get it done asap. Because most of us don't take pride in doing something ourselves or saving money, we take pride in having the money to pay someone else to do it really quickly!

    Although I don’t do this, as I’m not handy, many people I know do a fair amount of their own home improvement. Generally pretty badly.


  • #131
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    . You're only taking recent examples but many times in the UK (Protestant) or America have went through terrible recessions. The UK was also called the sick man of Europe at one point.
    actually, I didn't mention religion at all in my OP, though it had been on my mind. In fact I was surprised how quickly it occured to other people.

    Yes my reference to that awful initialism PIGS does only refer to recent years, but picking out rare cases of British or German recessions isn't really an argument so much as cognitive bias. The fact is that the UK doesn't suffer the same swingeining peaks and troughs as does our economy.

    As I said earlier, it's just an observation, I'm trying to be dispassionate, I'm not anti Catholic by any means. Let's approach this as we would any other data without trying to prove our personal instincts to be correct.

    I do think we can be profligate with money, especially with public money, in a way that would be unacceptable elsewhere. I mean, a few hundred million have gone missing from the National Children's Hospital, and it has been widely brushed aside by outrage in front of a tiny, peaceful protest outside the house of the man overseeing it.


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  • #132
    Viscount Aggro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    I am reading a lot of negativity towards frugality.
    To me its a positive mindset.

    In Germany, they dont do debt. Credit cards are not used widely.
    The German word for debt - 'schuld' - is the same as the German word for 'guilt'

    Some people say you should spend your money on things,
    or experiences.
    You know what I like to spend my money on, and it gives me the most pleasure of all....
    Nothing


  • #133
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Agricola wrote: »
    We're a very insecure race of people who are obsessed with impressing others. That, and we've only very recently came into wealth after never having a pot to piss in. That's about it.

    Another thing which separates us from all these frugal Scandinavian and Teutonic people, even the British to a large extent, is that we don't value frugality to any degree. I had a Swiss neighbour who was probably the most frugal man I've ever met. He took it on himself to do everything, rather than hire or pay people to do the work 10 times faster than he could. It wasn't a question of money either, both he and his wife had good salaries and could certainly afford to pay to get driveways paved, fences put up, garden shed's erected, walls built, outhouses renovated etc etc but he would always get the materials and slowly but surely do the work himself. Sometimes it was the equivalent of burrowing out of prison with a spoon, but he still persisted and eventually got the job done.

    I honestly don't think an Irish person exists who, with the means at their disposal, would take this approach to home improvement. Without fail, we'd throw money at it and get it done asap. Because most of us don't take pride in doing something ourselves or saving money, we take pride in having the money to pay someone else to do it really quickly!

    Or they realise that proper skills are required for some home renovations? I come from a family of tradesmen and they tackle as much as they can themselves but realise that they can’t do everything. Why would anyone take pride in doing a half-assed job? And life is short, many people don’t want to spend all their free time doing DIY.


  • #134
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,130 ✭✭✭screamer


    I think begrudgery runs deep and envy too. People don’t live within their means.... they want to keep up with the Jones’s, spending money they don’t need to, on things they don’t need.
    Personally we experienced the depths of recession, with 60% of our income just obliterated for years. I save a full wage every month, drive an 11 year old car and will have mortgage paid off in 6 years. I don’t give a **** about my outward possessions, my bank balance gives me comfort for when the bad times come again, and come they will.


  • #135
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    Viscount Aggro wrote: »
    I am reading a lot of negativity towards frugality.
    To me its a positive mindset.

    In Germany, they dont do debt. Credit cards are not used widely.
    The German word for debt - 'schuld' - is the same as the German word for 'guilt'

    Some people say you should spend your money on things,
    or experiences.
    You know what I like to spend my money on, and it gives me the most pleasure of all....
    Nothing

    Yep, can confirm, I'm from that area and debt is really not something you do unless you can avoid it. The only debt you take on would be a mortgage and in the last few years PCP cars got increasingly popular.
    But short term personal loans aren't a done thing really, it's short of shameful and a last resort thing. There also isn't really a credit Union scheme in place like here.

    If you can't afford it, you can't afford it and alter your life accordingly. It's easier to say you're short on money and can't do or have X than funding your life on credit. Now if course there are people in heavy debt over there too but the way money is generally spent and the attitude towards it is different.


  • #136
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    one thing that stands out is people who worked to be sucesfull from ground up will be less flashy then those who barely make ends meet and always complain about lack of cash will drive some 5 series or some new crap box.


    nothing wrong to want to have some luxury in life but some dont gather concept where its better to save money rather then splash it out needlessly.


  • #137
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,186 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    No. Because although there is always a risk of wage-inflation contagion, any sensible Government has to be sure that there certain sectors of strategic importance, such as the healthcare professions and policing, are capable of meeting safe minimum levels of staffing.

    Will colour me surprised :rolleyes: .Wage moderation for everyone but the public sector...

    Didn't see that coming...


  • #138
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    actually, I didn't mention religion at all in my OP, though it had been on my mind. In fact I was surprised how quickly it occured to other people.

    Yes my reference to that awful initialism PIGS does only refer to recent years, but picking out rare cases of British or German recessions isn't really an argument so much as cognitive bias. The fact is that the UK doesn't suffer the same swingeining peaks and troughs as does our economy.

    Your accusations of cognitive bias could easily be applied to your unproved theory. And the US had the biggest recession in the history of the 20C. It’s clearly not a frugal nation.
    As I said earlier, it's just an observation, I'm trying to be dispassionate, I'm not anti Catholic by any means. Let's approach this as we would any other data without trying to prove our personal instincts to be correct.

    I already presented the data. You’re wrong. Not that your theory had any merit or consistency.
    I do think we can be profligate with money, especially with public money, in a way that would be unacceptable elsewhere. I mean, a few hundred million have gone missing from the National Children's Hospital, and it has been widely brushed aside by outrage in front of a tiny, peaceful protest outside the house of the man overseeing it.

    Moving onto public waste is massive goal post shifting. The claim was that Irish people are personally ostentatious and non frugal in comparison to other countries, in particular Protestant countries.

    Yes the public sector are too good at spending taxpayers money and we have shoddy developers but that’s not what was originally claimed.

    The article is behind a firewall but you claimed she said. “a tendency among Irish people to act like brash, rich Americans at the first whiff of money, and an apathy towards Governments who behave similarly.”

    I’m not buying that at all. Looking out at the car park in front of my building , which is in a nice area, I see the oldest car in 2004 and the newest 2014. I’ve lived the US, that just doesn’t happen there, not in places where wages are good anyway.


  • #139
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,453 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    scamalert wrote: »
    one thing that stands out is people who worked to be sucesfull from ground up will be less flashy then those who barely make ends meet and always complain about lack of cash will drive some 5 series or some new crap box.


    nothing wrong to want to have some luxury in life but some dont gather concept where its better to save money rather then splash it out needlessly.

    When the frugal ones die their spendthrift offspring don't waste much time in frittering away the cash. Or maybe I just made up that generalisation to match what you came up with.


  • #140
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,783 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Your Face wrote: »
    I wish the Irish Times was frugal with Úna Mullaly articles.

    She is a very poor journalist. Years ago I knew her a bit through a mutual acquaintance and always found her hyper opinionated and slow to listen to anyone else’s alternative viewpoint or attempt reasoned debate when she did. A bad case of imrightitis with dollops of pseudo ultra liberal standpoint with absolute refusal to engage or reason with anyone who might question or have an alternate viewpoint. I’ve read a few of her articles and she doesn’t come across per say as a journalist rather a blogger writing opinion pieces and lecturing her audience whilst massaging her own ego. I avoid her print for lack of will to take her seriously as a journalist.


  • #141
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    The English way is better, IMO. A shorter day with less money flung around. Sounds good to me!

    As one of the first people in the bar after the church and always one of the last to leave the residents bar (incl my own wedding) I would strongly disagree, the English way sounds very boring in compassion to the Irish way.


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  • #142
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,801 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Has Una seen the lifestyle magazine her newspaper puts out on a saturday?
    Not much encouragement of frugality there.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #143
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,453 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    alloywheel wrote: »
    They are generally careful with money too the Germans, they still have one and two cent coins and would sometimes almost fight over one in a shop. They think we are mad with money in Ireland.

    They were not too careful with the new Berlin Airport. The waste going on there makes our Children's Hospital look frugal.


  • #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    alloywheel wrote: »
    True enough, the Germans like to think of themselves as being efficient but are not always so.

    Indeed - being there very often I marvel at the lack of debit/credit card paying facilities. Cash is the only option in many cases. We are about 10 years ahead of them on that front.


  • #145
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    alloywheel wrote: »
    Italy is indeed in trouble, it is in Recession. The wealthiest countries in Europe are generally and have been the northern countries.

    In modern times yes, the Scandinavians were pretty badly off and packing themselves into emigrant boats like us 100 or more years ago. Both Finland and Sweden had famines, the last major ones in Europe.


  • #146
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Viscount Aggro wrote: »
    I am reading a lot of negativity towards frugality.
    To me its a positive mindset.

    In Germany, they dont do debt. Credit cards are not used widely.
    The German word for debt - 'schuld' - is the same as the German word for 'guilt'

    Some people say you should spend your money on things,
    or experiences.
    You know what I like to spend my money on, and it gives me the most pleasure of all....
    Nothing

    I've no problem with debt, that's a different matter entirely, I mean good debt


  • #147
    Mr. teddywinkles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    I think some of it depends on how hard you work for your money too. Some people spend it wille nillie like it's nothing due to the job they have. I'll make it back next month handy enough attitude.


  • #148
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Viscount Aggro wrote: »
    I am reading a lot of negativity towards frugality.
    To me its a positive mindset.

    In Germany, they dont do debt. Credit cards are not used widely.
    The German word for debt - 'schuld' - is the same as the German word for 'guilt'

    Some people say you should spend your money on things,
    or experiences.
    You know what I like to spend my money on, and it gives me the most pleasure of all....
    Nothing

    German debt to GDP 64% marginally lower than Ireland.


  • #149
    Space Dog
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Space Dog


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    They were not too careful with the new Berlin Airport. The waste going on there makes our Children's Hospital look frugal.

    Don't forget the Elbphilharmonie in Hamburg - 866 million for a concert hall!


  • #150
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    An article I read many moons back on those discount chain super rich German brothers (think they are both dead now) explained that they got as much satisfaction out of not spending money as Roman Abramovic got out of spending it.


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  • #151
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,801 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    topper75 wrote: »
    An article I read many moons back on those discount chain super rich German brothers (think they are both dead now) explained that they got as much satisfaction out of not spending money as Roman Abramovic got out of spending it.

    Coincidentally, we have a thread on Boards for similar people here...
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057136862

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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