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L drivers, cars taken

13567…14

Comments

  • #62
    Acosta
    Registered Users Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Acosta


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    While that type of comment is trotted out here regularly, statistically young drivers are a much greater risk on our roads and that is reflected in their insurance costs and payouts.

    They are probably even more of a risk than insurance statistics present as most older drivers think nothing of making a claim for something fairly routine while many younger drivers will avoid going through their insurance if possible.

    The most recent statistics that I've seen which are from 2017 tell us that drivers at most risk are 66 and over. In that year older drivers were involved in 55% of accidents on the road.

    And even if statistics for other periods of time indicate that younger drivers are at greater risk that doesn't make it right that the RSA target younger age groups with hard hitting expensive ads(which are often quite good actually) every time.
    I never said i was an expert. All i can do is comment on what i see and experience on the roads myself. The driving practice of many older road users is utterly abysmal and it doesn't help that young people are the target for every new campaign by the RSA. A bit of perspective is needed.
    Road users of all age groups have caused carnage on the roads. It don't think it's a bad idea for the RSA to acknowledge this once in a while.


  • #63
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Marina Young Lodging wrote: »
    A number of things need to be done in this country but alas they won't

    No issuing of a 3rd or subsequent learner permit without evidence of having sat a driving test.

    Test those who were issued with licences in the amnesty.

    Bring in Applus or SGS testers to get the backlog down, i did my own test in a car with SGS at a Dublin NCT centre.

    It will probably become necessary to check every driver's licence/permit at checkpoints, the technology is now there to check if a driver has a full driving licence/learner permit/disqualified via the hand held devices linked to the RSA's database.

    The amnesty was 40 years ago. Forget about it already!


  • #64
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,396 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    SCOOP 64 wrote: »
    Why mention Europe then, I understand why L drivers shouldn't drive unaccompanied, my sons learning to drive, no way would i let him nor does he want to, but the reaction seems to have happen over night,guards seem to coming down hard at the early stage of the new law enforced.

    I don't know I didn't bring it up, but I guess its because the closest countries to us that dont have an L driver system are in continental Europe and a lot of people just call that Europe.

    Wasn't aware that it was a new law tbh. Thought the law was always there they just stopped turning a blind eye to it?


  • #65
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    I don't know I didn't bring it up, but I guess its because the closest countries to us that dont have an L driver system are in continental Europe and a lot of people just call that Europe.

    Wasn't aware that it was a new law tbh. Thought the law was always there they just stopped turning a blind eye to it?

    Driving alone on a learner permit was abolished completely in 2007, until then those on second provisional licences as they were known then could drive alone.

    All the Clancy amendment did was give the power to seize the car from an unaccompanied learner driver and hold the owner jointly liable if they and the driver were not one and the same person.


  • #66
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,221 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    UrbanFret wrote: »
    And for the 6 months it takes to complete this process? How are they supposed to get to their work?
    I used to cycle everywhere before I drove. Still do, unless I’ve to bring a load of equipment with me. Before I drove, if I couldn’t get there by bike, it was deemed ‘too far to travel’.


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  • #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    I was discussing this with the wife today. We live in a rural are and I named 30 people in our area working in the nearest town.

    People in rural areas help each other out Lifts can be got to work or maybe even they might take a lift with the learner.


  • #68
    doolox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    Deckard Shaw.

    There is no way I will submit to a test after driving for 43 years accident free on these roads in our country.

    Me, my two sisters and many others received the licences from the 1979 Fianna Fail government when we had two provisional licences and a clean record of driving on Irish roads.

    I have been driven on Irish, European and US roads without any issue since 1979.

    The likes of you would have me condemned to immobility or public transport for no logical or rational reason just to make me and my contemporaries undergo an completely unnecessary test just to satisfy your desire to push us off the roads of our country.

    You can get to hell off.

    This will not happen.

    Me and my generation will fight any moves to do this tooth and nail.

    Legally I can and will block any road in this bitter and jealous little Republic and make your lives a misery if any action is taken to deprive us of our licences.

    I would remind you that my fathers generation fought and defeated the biggest Empire to get their freedoms. Don't think you will be able to enforce a new and onerous requirement on our generation at this time in our lives.

    It will not happen.

    Until there is a valid case made to force me off the roads of my country then you can get to hell right off and go to hell. My livelihood will not be put at risk by this proposal. My ability to earn a living will not be ruined by this idea.


  • #69
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,396 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    @doolox I agree with you but I will say that it is evident that many of that generation have pretty poor driving habits. So while a test would be out of order and legally problematic at best a little refresher and a critical review of one's driving habits wouldn't go astray tbh.


  • #70
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,948 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Marina Young Lodging wrote: »
    Driving alone on a learner permit was abolished completely in 2007,...
    Well not completely - it's still permitted in certain categories.


  • #71
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,948 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    doolox wrote: »
    Deckard Shaw.

    There is no way I will submit to a test after driving for 43 years accident free on these roads in our country.

    Me, my two sisters and many others received the licences from the 1979 Fianna Fail government when we had two provisional licences and a clean record of driving on Irish roads.

    I have been driven on Irish, European and US roads without any issue since 1979.

    The likes of you would have me condemned to immobility or public transport for no logical or rational reason just to make me and my contemporaries undergo an completely unnecessary test just to satisfy your desire to push us off the roads of our country.

    You can get to hell off.

    This will not happen.

    Me and my generation will fight any moves to do this tooth and nail.

    Legally I can and will block any road in this bitter and jealous little Republic and make your lives a misery if any action is taken to deprive us of our licences.

    I would remind you that my fathers generation fought and defeated the biggest Empire to get their freedoms. Don't think you will be able to enforce a new and onerous requirement on our generation at this time in our lives.

    It will not happen.

    Until there is a valid case made to force me off the roads of my country then you can get to hell right off and go to hell. My livelihood will not be put at risk by this proposal. My ability to earn a living will not be ruined by this idea.
    I can never understand why some people get so worked up by the 1979 amnesty. It's hardly their fault that there was a 9 month postal strike (at a time when few had telephones). Surely they should be more upset by the pre 1964 drivers. At least those who gained licences in the amnesty had to be on their 2nd provisional and be on the waiting list for a test. Those pre-1964 licence holders simply bought the licence at the post office and ticked the categories they required (my mother being one of them).

    In saying that, both categories represent a very small percentage of those on the roads so those opposed to it are barking up the wrong tree.


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  • #72
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,940 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Can't understand those who defend these drivers.

    It's a case again in Ireland of accepting lawlessness.

    L drivers have killed people on the roads. But that doesn't seem to matter to some. It's the big bad police state,isn't it? Why aren't they out catching real criminals?

    They are.


  • #73
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    no sympathy here.
    ill agree that not every L driver is a danger but law is


  • #74
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,948 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Acosta wrote: »
    ...The driving practice of many older road users is utterly abysmal and it doesn't help that young people are the target for every new campaign by the RSA. A bit of perspective is needed....
    Perhaps you get different news from me but a lot of the fatalities I read about relate to younger drivers. It's hardly a coincidence either that young drivers pay higher insurance premiums or that the RSA target them in their safety campaigns,

    You mention that older people are involved in 55% of accidents. That's meaningless without knowing what type of accidents. How many of those involved serious injury or death? As I said earlier, older people are more likely to claim through their insurance generating those statistics and many of those accidents may be 'fender benders'. Young drivers are much less likely to go through their insurance so the stats are skewed.


  • #75
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    I'm 47 never been in accident through my own stupidity, I have been in an accident that cost me 7 months out of work because of a learner driver. So I'm happy to see this law enforced.


  • #76
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,221 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I'm 47 never been in accident through my own stupidity, I have been in an accident that cost me 7 months out of work because of a learner driver. So I'm happy to see this law enforced.

    Same here. The only accident I was ever in was being t-boned by a learner who panicked when their car started to overheat, and made a sudden upturn around a traffic island in heavy traffic. Their explanation? They wanted to get to a garage to put water in the car and the only one they knew was back the way they came...


  • #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    doolox wrote: »
    400 is a tiny number in comparison.

    The only guess I can arrive at is that there are approx 50,000 people learning to drive each year on Irish roads, given that 50,000 people sit the leaving cert each year.

    At a 50% failure rate you could guess that 100,000 tests are carried out each year. So that 400 apprehensions for lone driving without a full licence is 1/2 of 1 per cent of the total number of drivers learning on our roads..

    Your maths is all over the place, to be honest. No idea what the correlation is between learners and school leavers, but a 50% failure rate means there are 25,000 learners who've failed the test, not 100k. You're also working off the assumption that each is driving unaccompanied, which obviously isn't true. If the true figure was, say, 60%, that's 15,000 unaccompanied learners every year. 400+ is about 3% of that, but, again, that's an astronomical base figure we started out with.


  • #78
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Anthonylfc wrote:
    Nice to see them going after the hardcore criminals here

    Everytime I see this brain-dead quote I have to cringe just a little.


  • #79
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭malinheader


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    @doolox I agree with you but I will say that it is evident that many of that generation have pretty poor driving habits. So while a test would be out of order and legally problematic at best a little refresher and a critical review of one's driving habits wouldn't go astray tbh.

    Have no problem with that as long as it doesn't take a full day and cost a fortune and be turned into a cash cow for the government.


  • #80
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Hedgelayer wrote: »
    They should have thought about that when they were 18, my son's doing driving lessons and he's doing it the right way.
    He's going to pass his test hopefully soon enough.
    I know plenty of parents who's kids have full licences at 19....

    Exactly. Both my sons were given sets of driving lessons as their 18th birthday present


  • #81
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    Well not completely - it's still permitted in certain categories.

    I should have stated category B, impossible to be accompanied on any of the A categories hence IBT.


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  • #82
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    doolox wrote: »
    Deckard Shaw.

    There is no way I will submit to a test after driving for 43 years accident free on these roads in our country.

    Me, my two sisters and many others received the licences from the 1979 Fianna Fail government when we had two provisional licences and a clean record of driving on Irish roads.

    I have been driven on Irish, European and US roads without any issue since 1979.

    The likes of you would have me condemned to immobility or public transport for no logical or rational reason just to make me and my contemporaries undergo an completely unnecessary test just to satisfy your desire to push us off the roads of our country.

    You can get to hell off.

    This will not happen.

    Me and my generation will fight any moves to do this tooth and nail.

    Legally I can and will block any road in this bitter and jealous little Republic and make your lives a misery if any action is taken to deprive us of our licences.

    I would remind you that my fathers generation fought and defeated the biggest Empire to get their freedoms. Don't think you will be able to enforce a new and onerous requirement on our generation at this time in our lives.

    It will not happen.

    Until there is a valid case made to force me off the roads of my country then you can get to hell right off and go to hell. My livelihood will not be put at risk by this proposal. My ability to earn a living will not be ruined by this idea.
    Annual refresher course then similar to that of CPC training?

    I think you’re the first person on here who I have come across at least who got a licence during the amnesty.


  • #83
    Melodeon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,246 ✭✭✭Melodeon


    I've been banging on about it for years: a current valid Theory Test to renew a licence, and a full retest to reacquire a licence following a ban or disqualification.
    A competent driver should be able to be dropped out of the sky into a strange-to-them car at a strange-to-them test centre, and given a bit of time to familiarise themselves with the car, successfully complete the driving test.
    This of course is utterly impractical, hence my proposal at the top.


  • #84
    malinheader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Melodeon wrote: »
    I've been banging on about it for years: a current valid Theory Test to renew a licence, and a full retest to reacquire a licence following a ban or disqualification.
    A competent driver should be able to be dropped out of the sky into a strange-to-them car at a strange-to-them test centre, and given a bit of time to familiarise themselves with the car, successfully complete the driving test.
    This of course is utterly impractical, hence my proposal at the top.

    I think resitting your test after disqualification was proposed before. But it wasn't passed because the driving test was already to congested.
    By the way totally agree with having to resit theory and test after disqualification as long as it wasn't making a longer wait for first timers.


  • #85
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Resitting a test after disqualification does happen here but it has to be directed by a judge. I’m aware of an artic driver who was disqualified by a court and ordered to do an extended (resit) driving test in that category (CE).


  • #86
    lbc2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭lbc2019


    Anthonylfc wrote: »
    Wouldnt see them do this to travellers or known drug dealers

    Just new drivers

    Except they are always before the courts so your point is bs


  • #87
    lbc2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭lbc2019


    If you are banned on a Learner Permit you have to start the whole process from scratch


  • #88
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Anthonylfc wrote: »
    Wouldnt see them do this to travellers or known drug dealers

    Just new drivers

    You didn’t see this article then?

    https://amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/three-men-questioned-after-gardai-raid-unauthorised-cork-halting-site-464002.html


  • #89
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    SCOOP 64 wrote: »
    Why mention Europe then, I understand why L drivers shouldn't drive unaccompanied, my sons learning to drive, no way would i let him nor does he want to, but the reaction seems to have happen over night,guards seem to coming down hard at the early stage of the new law enforced.

    Because they can't apply discretion to this.


  • #90
    Acosta
    Registered Users Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Acosta


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    Perhaps you get different news from me but a lot of the fatalities I read about relate to younger drivers. It's hardly a coincidence either that young drivers pay higher insurance premiums or that the RSA target them in their safety campaigns,

    You mention that older people are involved in 55% of accidents. That's meaningless without knowing what type of accidents. How many of those involved serious injury or death? As I said earlier, older people are more likely to claim through their insurance generating those statistics and many of those accidents may be 'fender benders'. Young drivers are much less likely to go through their insurance so the stats are skewed.

    I can't see a further breakdown on the 55% but on the same year people aged 66 and over were statistically the most at risk of being killed on the roads according to the RSA.

    This isn't an us vs them thing. I have no issue with the many new requirements that new drivers must meet before they can pass the test.

    In 20 years I can't remember one RSA ad not directed exclusively at young drivers. Surely you're not saying over that period of time after all the ads they have produced that not even one should be directed at older drivers?

    The post from doolox above I think provides an insight as to why road safety campaigns are exclusively directed at younger drivers. It's politically convenient. There would be holy war if the RSA started to target older drivers in campaigns and politicians would not be happy about it as they'd be getting it in the neck on the doorsteps and losing votes. If more young people were politically active and actually voted things might be different in this regard.

    On what doolox said, I wouldn't be in favour of older people having to resit the test because they never did in the first place or are at a certain age were they should repeat it.
    Too much of the way the test is conducted is a joke and it would be pointless resitting it.
    I do however believe that all drivers should have to do a driving assessment every 10 or 15 years. Not just older drivers.
    I do it for work every 5 or so years and it's quite good. If you're a competent driver you have nothing to worry about.


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  • #91
    doolox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    I have done a little research into UK test waiting times and they seem to suffer the same shambolic delays and frustrations as exist in our system and they have the additional frustration that test appointments can be cancelled at short notice or even on the day of the test if the tester is absent due to illness.

    They also have 16 to 17 week delays waiting for a test appointment but some centres have 5 or 6 week waiting periods.

    There also appears to be closer linkage between Approved driving instructors (ADI's) and the official testers when arranging and booking test appointments.

    I am not aware of the need for official registration and qualifications for driving instructors in this country but I have been told that the quality of instruction available can be very variable and is not held to a consistent standard or properly and unambiguously aligned with the test standards and measures of knowledge and skills required by the testers.

    I have been told by recent test passers and failers that speed management can be a source of failure in that one tester may judge a candidate as being too slow and another tester may judge the same driver as being too fast in a given situation. There seems to be no clear and unambiguous direction handed down by the authorities and little or no practical recourse to appeal a driving instructors decision on a test.

    As most test candidates are young and have little advantage in either life experience or financial or political power, all the cards seem to be in the testers hands and most candidates have little choice but to repeat the test, at often great cost in time and money rather than try to appeal and fight bad decisions.
    This leaves mediocre or careless testers in work getting away with shoddy or arbitrary decisions, often at great cost to the test candidates.

    I do not believe a proper comparison has been made across the EU to try and find what methods are used in other countries to test and evaluate their drivers.

    Have other countries got a better standard of public transport than ours? How do rural areas manage? Is it possible to get a restricted licence exclusively to drive to and from work and exclude social and night-time driving or powerful cars etc.. from a particular licence.

    I am aware that such restrictions can apply in some American States to allow young drivers to only drive to and from a designated workplace on a designated route and if they are found in violation of these conditions high penalties apply.

    Unfortunately our legal systems are so clogged up that such detailed oversight would be hard to implement. The level of policing and penalties also seem to be higher in other countries regarding speed and stop signs, lights etc. Being pulled for failing stop at a stop sign is extremely rare here but common in the States.


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