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Grayson · 20-02-2019 5:34pm

beejee wrote: »

In extension to the above, I was reading a magazine where it put forward the idea of "digital disease", where the Internet in general can be thought of as a vector for spreading disease (of intangible, damaging thought)

It may become a popular phrase in the near future.

I read an article about how conspiracy theories spread. It specifically mentioned flat earthers. They went to a flat earth convention and asked everyone how they had first heard about it and it was in all but one exception, youtube. In that one exception the person had heard about it from their kids, who had heard about it on youtube.

So these people viewed material on flat earth "theories" and got sucked in. the more they viewed it the more youtube offered them. In a short period of time they ended up believing that the earth was flat.

Robsweezie · 20-02-2019 5:37pm

my gut reaction to someone i know voluntarily hacking off a healthy limb would be to absolutely withdraw all support for them.

but... a part of me would want to work with them on psychological issues they're dealing with, try to understand the motivation.

beejee · 20-02-2019 5:58pm

Grayson wrote: »

I read an article about how conspiracy theories spread. It specifically mentioned flat earthers. They went to a flat earth convention and asked everyone how they had first heard about it and it was in all but one exception, youtube. In that one exception the person had heard about it from their kids, who had heard about it on youtube.

So these people viewed material on flat earth "theories" and got sucked in. the more they viewed it the more youtube offered them. In a short period of time they ended up believing that the earth was flat.

Those who spend less time involved in normal society will spend more time invested in the internet. (There is a reason they aren't part of normal society!)

Therefore they disproportionately represent the content of the internet, essentially controlling the internet.

Normal people who pop on and off the internet are exposed to this disproportionate/incorrect representation of reality and assume that the abnormal is actually normal.

Its usually outrageous stuff to begin with, so the lack-wits of common media latch on to it and publicise it even more, "clicks". And it spirals from there until abnormal ACTUALLY becomes normalised. The lunatics take over the asylum.

Its easy to point at the likes of these flat-earthers as an example, but the fact of the matter is that there are already insane ideas accepted as normal, already slipped into common perception as "fact". But its easy to spot insanity: it wont measure up against biology, nature, physics, geography...

The internet is the most dangerous thing in the world right now, and its only going to get worse as it becomes properly weaponised. As the world falters and crumbles beneath dreamt-up biology, backward-physics, illogical ideology and so on, the internet will be rightly dismantled. Put money on it.

kowloon · 20-02-2019 8:45pm

seamus wrote: »

There are some people who will successfully commit suicide one way or another, because they're beyond our ability to help them at the moment. So we can either chain them up or let them go.

Didn't a Dutch woman win a case for euthanasia due to depression? It's a can of worms but I think it needs discussion.
If it's the opinion of medical professions that the cure for someone with this form of dysmorphia is to go and amputate the limb is it ethical? Assuming therapy or whatever can't help.

One eyed Jack · 20-02-2019 8:57pm

klaaaz wrote: »

That didn't take long for someone to try to connect this story to the LGBT community.:mad:

But sure it’s these people themselves who are trying to link in to the momentum generated by trans advocates, the language they’re using is exactly the same, both groups using the same arguments and logic from the same social justice playbook.

Grayson · 20-02-2019 9:02pm

kowloon wrote: »

Didn't a Dutch woman win a case for euthanasia due to depression? It's a can of worms but I think it needs discussion.
If it's the opinion of medical professions that the cure for someone with this form of dysmorphia is to go and amputate the limb is it ethical? Assuming therapy or whatever can't help.

In the case of the dutch woman she had been experiencing acute untreatable depression for years. The dutch doctors approached it as if it was physical pain and that's why she was granted her request. If I remember correctly three separate doctors have to agree to the request.

In this case maybe it would work. But and here'd the big but, I think it would have to be shown that it would be treatable by amputation. The if they had it removed it would resolve the issue. And that it's literally the only way to treat the condition. And that the person is suffering enough to justify it.

One eyed Jack · 20-02-2019 9:30pm

seamus wrote: »

"Enable mental illness", implies that if you just don't humour it, it will go away.

It doesn’t imply that, and I’m not sure that was the posters intent either. I took it to mean that we don’t, or rather that we shouldn’t, entertain people who are mentally ill. You’re right, it doesn’t make them go away, but what it does, is deprive them of an audience, and the attention and validation they appear to so desperately crave. We shouldn’t seek to normalise their behaviours or their thought processes, and we should be under no obligation to accept or accommodate their disordered mentality by entertaining their delusions.

seamus wrote: »

There are some people who will successfully commit suicide one way or another, because they're beyond our ability to help them at the moment. So we can either chain them up or let them go.

As uncomfortable as it is to say, we have to do what is most humane, not preserve life at all costs.

That “chain them up or let them go” is a false dichotomy when there are a number of alternatives, such as hospitalisation or detainment against their will because they present as a danger to themselves - perfectly lawful already under the Mental Health Act.

It’s not uncomfortable to say we have to do what is most humane, what is uncomfortable is the idea that the most humane thing to do is to permit people to harm themselves, rather than try to prevent them from doing so, and endeavour to treat their conditions. It’s not a question of preserving life at all costs either, but rather there is a greater cost to society if we abandon our responsibilities towards other people and turn a blind eye to their suffering.

seamus wrote: »

It is? Consistently? My understanding is that there is insufficient evidence for any particular treatment path, but anecdotally there are reports of patient for whom therapy and medication work, and others for whom surgical intervention worked.

The poster didn’t say “consistently” in fairness. The way you frame your understanding shows that you’re purposely playing down the overwhelming body of evidence that suggests therapy and medication are a more effective and ethical treatment than the anecdotal evidence of people who felt better after they’d had bleach poured in their eyes or purposely given themselves frostbite so that clinicians were left with little choice in order to save the person’s life than to amputate their limbs. That’s not direct surgical intervention to treat the condition, it’s treating the symptoms and aftermath of a mental illness.

seamus wrote: »

We should do whatever results in the optimal outcome for the patient, not bind ourselves to some ideological idea that mental illness must always be resisted even at the expense of the patient's health.

Who do you imagine is in the best position to make that determination? The patient who is considered mentally ill, or the physicians and clinicians who have a vast amount of experience in dealing with these conditions? Nobody is suggesting that anyone should resist mental illness, what’s being suggested is that we shouldn’t bind ourselves to the ideological idea that it’s ok not to be ok, at the expense not just of a patients health, but in extreme cases - their lives.

seamus wrote: »

One big issue in pop psychology is the belief that everyone is born (or at least formed) in a working state, and mental illness appears over time, caused by chemical imbalances, learned experiences or major trauma. As such, we believe we can "repair" everyone and bring them back to a normal state.

That’s not an issue in pop psychology. It’s the fundamental basis of psychology, full stop.

seamus wrote: »

Some people are just born "broken" and may not be "fixable" except to "enable" their mental illness.

That’s an awful lot of inverted commas, but I get your point. It’s based entirely upon a standard of what is normal, and what as you put it, is “broken”. It’s the difference between normal, and mentally ill. There is scant evidence to suggest that there is a genetic component to these conditions, but that’s what advocates appear to be hanging their hats on, and trying to shift the paradigm of what is normal or abnormal to suggest that they are normal, and anyone who disagrees with them, are abnormal. That’s pop psychology, and it’s that line of argument that fuels modern social justice politics.

orourkeda1977 · 20-02-2019 9:34pm

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I wonder does John Wayne Bobbitt think that someone getting their penis cut off is an insult to him.

I've wondered about the bobbitt case.

If the roles were reversed, if we replace penis with boob would the reaction have been the same.

One eyed Jack · 20-02-2019 9:36pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I've wondered about the bobbitt case.

If the roles were reversed, if we replace penis with boob would the reaction have been the same.

No it wouldn’t, because the circumstances would have been different. Why would you think the reaction would be the same in entirely different circumstances?

Pauliedragon · 21-02-2019 12:17am

I had my balls removed the day I got married. Do I count as transabled? Maybe I can apply for dissability.

21-02-2019 8:46am

Lollipops23 wrote: »

They have no idea how it feels. They're romanticizing it and wouldn't cope for one day with actual disability.

Except some of them actually are. The woman who felt she was meant to be blind now actually _is_ blind. So she is coping every day with that _actual_ disability. The issue is that many of us have no idea how _their_ conditions feels just as much as they and I do not know how yours feels.

I sometimes worry that we rush to describe anything as "mental illness" when there is no other ready explanation to cover someone having motivations, agendas, thoughts or incentives vastly different to our own.

When we find someone is suffering from a genuine underlying physical condition however our sympathies tend to change as the real reason for their behaviours or seeming delusions becomes clear.

Capgrah syndrome is a useful example of this. Patients presenting with a complete delusion that people or objects dear to them have been replaced with almost identical replicas. But somehow they _know_ the other person or pet is a fake.

This all seems like mad mental delusion. Until we find out that damage to the brain has severed links between the area of the brain related to identifying people and objects - and the area of the brain that relates to evaluating the personal significance or import of that person or object. So the patient looks at their own mother and a whole dimension of that person is missing. So they believe them to be an imposter somehow.

Phantom Limb syndrome - kinda the opposite effect of the condition this thread is about - is a useful counter point. People report suffering actual pain and discomfort in a limb that simply is not there any more. A chunk of current thought on this is that the brain maintains a "body map" of the entire body. And all inputs and outputs to and from the brain pass through this mapping.

So if the brain has a map for a limb that is not there - thus expecting inputs from it and communication with it - it goes into a crazy feedback loop causing serious pain to the patient in the limb that is not even there. And one genius "cure" for the condition after years of expensive research cost a mere 5 dollars. Using a simple box and mirror they tricked the brain into seeing the missing limb and thus receive input from a limb not even there. One patient even reported not just an alleviation of pain from this - but the brain finally fixed the "map" and the phantom limb actually finally mercifully disappeared entirely.

One strong likelihood is that BID - or ALS or whatever acronym we want to use for the condition on this thread - is the same thing as Phantom Limb only in reverse. The brain for whatever reason does _not_ have a mapping for the limb. So it is receiving inputs and feedback from a limb it simply knows nothing about.

And this is causing the patient everything from discomfort to actual pain and personal identity issues. I would not see the desire to remove the limb as a "mental illness" in that situation. But just as rational as someone who's tooth ache gets to the point where they rip their own tooth out with a string and a door.

Ideally we would find a way similar to the box and mirror to cure the condition like we often can with Phantom Limb. But until we have actual treatments available there is an ethical discussion to be had there. And actual doctors have it.

For all our knowledge that the limb itself is perfectly normal and healthy - if we assume no treatment is going to come available within the lifetime of a given patient - and the patient genuinely is suffering - is it not ethically the right thing to do to give them the only treatment we actually have? That being amputation of the liimb.

There are ethical pro's and con's to discuss there. None of which we are reaching for when we just cry "mentally ill" at people who likely have as much grip on their rational faculties as any of us posting on this thread. The problem is that their experience and suffering is as alien to us as their limb is to them. So it is not a head space we can slip into easily.

friendlyfun · 21-02-2019 9:30am

Love how people in After hours actively look to be outraged.

Bigbagofcans · 21-02-2019 10:49am

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I wonder does John Wayne Bobbitt think that someone getting their penis cut off is an insult to him.

There are those who split theirs in half. I had the misfortune of someone showing me a blog about a man cutting his in half

21-02-2019 10:56am

This is Totally Off Topic but im not going to start a thread, but I went trough a phase a few years ago where I was *obsessed* by phantom limb pain

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

It's where an amputee feels the pain in his limb which has been amputated, even though the limb isn't there. I became interested in this after my cousin lost a leg in a riding accident in his teens, and he suffered very badly with this. When he came to stay at our house, I'd often wake up to the sound of him crying in agony, with pain in a limb that wasn't there. He still has it, but it's not as bad as it used to be. Really horrible ordeal for these folks. Totally bewildering condition.

Sorry, off topic I know. Back to the outrage!

21-02-2019 10:57am

^ Did he ever try things with mirrors in the end or get the issue solved in the long run some way?

21-02-2019 11:01am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

^ Did he ever try things with mirrors in the end or get the issue solved in the long run some way?

No, but he takes a rake of medication, which alleviates the pain. It's a trial and error process, but the poor lad's liver is going to be fcuked. It seems to be at its worst during the night, there's obviously a big psychological component to it.

Imagine, one stupid error as a teen and you're dealing with this shíte for the rest of your life, we are fragile creatures.

Ariadne · 21-02-2019 11:08am

Ah here. Like if you want to have one of your limbs removed then you are obviously mentally ill. Of course someone who is blind is going to be pissed off with someone who deliberately blinds themselves but you have to understand that someone who deliberately blinds themselves is not mentally well. I have a lung disease and I feel pissed off with smokers sometimes but what are you going to do, it's an addiction. I feel sorry for someone who really feels as if one of their limbs does not belong to their body, can you imagine the constant discomfort, it must drive you insane. I really think that amputating the limb should be a last resort, if therapy and medication doesn't work and the removal of the limb will alleviate suffering then I consider it a viable option but only in the worst case scenario.

21-02-2019 11:08am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, but he takes a rake of medication, which alleviates the pain.

^ The mirror thing was discovered entirely by accident and does not work for everyone. But when it does the effect is astounding. The guy who discovered it joked that he solved with a 5 dollar pocket mirror a condition we have spent 100s of 1000s researching.

It also figured in an episode of Dr. House because it is the kind of crazy phenomenon that the writers of that show loved. There was an angry cranky neighbour always giving House issues and moaning about his phantom limb pain. So House drugs him and ties him up and when he comes around he subjects him to mirrors. And the neighbour goes from screaming about calling the cops - to going "Oh my god im cured!".

Ok fantastical because it is a prime time television situation of course! But the stories from the guy who discovered the actual principle are almost as astounding.

Maybe look into it and try it with him. Worst case nothing happens. Best case you alter him in a way he will be forever grateful for.

Interestingly you can do the same thing in reverse on yourself or on other people. There is a way using a fake hand and a mirror to temporarily "break" your brain into thinking the fake hand is your hand. You actively start feeling things being done to the hand that is not yours. To the point that when you suddenly stab a knife towards it - your subject screams and jumps away in actual terror. Always a fun reaction at parties.

I can track down and cite some links to these things on you tube if you want. There are some talks on it.

Grayson · 21-02-2019 1:06pm

A woman in Cork chopped off her own finger in a DIY amputation

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/i-m-grand-cork-woman-cuts-off-finger-after-years-of-chronic-pain-1.3801499

In her case she was in chronic pain and had been refused an amputation. So she did it herself and she says she feels great now. She also threw the finger in the bin.

Megan stresses that she tried every form of pain relief but nothing worked for her.

“I went on higher and higher stuff. I went on to morphine. Morphine patches, sleeping tablets, anti-depressants anything you could think of I was on and I still wasn’t sleeping. It was still agony. It was still ten out of ten everyday.”

Last Friday she decided she had “had enough.”

“I planned it for about a week. I am not saying exactly how I did it. I don’t want people doing what I did.

“I made sure I was Detolled.(Detol antiseptic) I took it off. I screamed. I called for my mother to call the ambulance.

“I threw my finger away so that they could not grab it and sew it back on. I got rid of it. I threw it in the bin. I made sure it was nowhere to be seen. We had to wait about 45 min for the ambulance.”

Megan insists she does not regret her decision and with antibiotics she is on the road to recovery.

“Ever since I have had no pain. It has been brilliant. I haven’t taken any painkillers. I said ‘I am grand.’ It is great.”

kowloon · 21-02-2019 9:26pm

friendlyfun wrote: »

Love how people in After hours actively look to be outraged.

People in general look to be outraged, even if it's being outraged at someone else's outrage. Not enough drama to go around.

Ten of Swords · 21-02-2019 10:53pm

I remember a news story from a few years ago, a woman convinced a doctor to blind her with drain cleaner in order to fulfill her lifelong ambition to be disabled. Couldn't believe what I was reading, thought it had to be a hoax

https://uproxx.com/viral/woman-voluntarily-goes-blind-bleach/

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