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Regency Hotel shooting trial collapses following Detective Superintendent's suicide

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245678

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    #32
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    partyguinness wrote: »
    The grass is not greener. Ireland is one of the safest and best countties in the world to live.



    Don't believe me? Fine, go away and find out for yourself.


    As a matter of interest, where else in the world has your mother lived?

    She has lived in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Isle of Man


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    #33
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    I heard the true story a year ago and was told this would happen today.
    It's explosive and I'd be banned if I posted up here but be prepared for shocking news regarding this case and gsoc inquiry.
    If you take a step back forget media spin it's actually quite easy to work out.


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    #34
    swarlb
    Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭swarlb


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    She has lived in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Isle of Man

    Which one have you decided on ?


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    #35
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    I thought this was an "open and shut" case.

    The perpetrators were seen by dozens of witnesses and photographed making an escape.

    Jury should have been home by lunch


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    #36
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    I thought this was an "open and shut" case.

    The perpetrators were seen by dozens of witnesses and photographed making an escape.

    Jury should have been home by lunch

    It was expected to be two weeks.


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    #37
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    She has lived in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Isle of Man

    Those are pretty good countries alright. Why did she come back?


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    #38
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    She has lived in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Isle of Man


    Really...so why did she come back if it so rubbish in Ireland.

    Did she actually live there for a decent period of time or was just a travelling thing.


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    #39
    safeasparagus
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭safeasparagus


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Really...so why did she come back if it so rubbish in Ireland.

    Did she actually live there for a decent period of time or was just a travelling thing.

    Who Cares !!!!


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    #40
    Phibsboro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭Phibsboro


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    I thought this was an "open and shut" case.

    The perpetrators were seen by dozens of witnesses and photographed making an escape.

    Jury should have been home by lunch

    That is why it is probably not as simple as messing up the two guards' ID. You have to think they'd have a good handful of other guards they could get to view the video and also ID Hutch. Looking at the news reports, the sequence of events is that the ID was actually accepted by the court after initial dispute from the defense. The defense then asked for copies of emails between the 4 guards involved (presumably Fox, the guard who organised the ID and the two ID'ing guards), with a view to showing they had coordinated their statements. Within 3 days of that request, Fox killed himself. Subsequently, as the case was postponed on multiple occasions waiting for the inquiry into Fox's death to finish, the court heard that
    a mobile phone, laptop computer and two USB devices were being analysed as part of the inquiry, which also included “a significant amount” of documentation and statements.

    That all sounds like a much more serious issue than the two ID'ing guards watching the video together instead of separately. The news reports seem to indicate the inquiry finished late last year, so the question now is will it be made public?


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    #41
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,978 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I find this baffling.

    Law leaves me wondering at times. A man has his photo taken running from a hotel where a man was shot dead. And he's holding a gun.

    But sure, away you go, you're grand.


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    #42
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    I thought this was an "open and shut" case.

    The perpetrators were seen by dozens of witnesses and photographed making an escape.

    Jury should have been home by lunch

    No jury


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    #43
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,499 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    I heard the true story a year ago and was told this would happen today.
    It's explosive and I'd be banned if I posted up here but be prepared for shocking news regarding this case and gsoc inquiry.
    If you take a step back forget media spin it's actually quite easy to work out.


    I'm going to say it, I can't work it out exactly. But if there's a chance that the sadly departed Det Supt Colm Fox was "got to" and forced to do the inexplicable to protect his loved ones we're in to GUBU stuff that may even overreach the tragic and heinous Veronica Guerin murder. It could rock the foundations of An Garda Siochana and our justice system and put us up there with Italian and Russian mafia coercion of the highest level against the state.


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    #44
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Special three judge court for these types of gang related killings... Drugs etc etc.


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    #45
    utyh2ikcq9z76b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    She has lived in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Isle of Man

    I've been to them all except Canada, pretty similar values to Ireland, basically all English speaking western world countries, the only thing foreign about em is the distance


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    #46
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    I'm going to say it, I can't work it out exactly. But if there's a chance that the sadly departed Det Supt Colm Fox was "got to" and forced to do the inexplicable to protect his loved ones we're in to GUBU stuff that may even overreach the tragic and heinous Veronica Guerin murder. It could rock the foundations of An Garda Siochana and our justice system and put us up there with Italian and Russian mafia coercion of the highest level against the state.

    Worse than that my friend much worse


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    #47
    Criminal informer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭Criminal informer


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I find this baffling.

    Law leaves me wondering at times. A man has his photo taken running from a hotel where a man was shot dead. And he's holding a gun.

    But sure, away you go, you're grand.

    "Drag lady" was ID'd as Patrick by 2 detectives which was admissible out of 500 guards asked to look at the pictures!

    Patrick was charged with murder and possession of 3 aks, where Byrne was killed by an ak gunman dressed as a guard and "drag lady" was in possession of a handgun.

    Patrick was going to be found not guilty if it went to full trial, too much doubt on ID, murder and possession of the aks.


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    #48
    bonkers67
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭bonkers67


    Sydney Tinkling Joker wrote: »
    We are ranked 18th on the world corruption index, we have very low levels.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

    If you believe that I’ve a bridge to sell you.


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    #49
    orourkeda1977
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    fonesmasher1 wrote: »
    How could this happen? DSi Colm Fox was the lead investigator when he shot himself in Ballymun station. Surely his successor could try and pick up the case?

    I dont understand this myself.


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    #50
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    _Brian wrote: »
    Does this stop the DPP getting their house in order and bringing another case ?

    No


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bonkers67 wrote: »
    If you believe that I’ve a bridge to sell you.


    pfft

    international ranking by experts nah mate listen mate i heard different mate

    barstooling


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    #52
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    I can’t read between the lines here.

    He killed himself, it’s as simple as that or else spill the beans.


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    #53
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    My issue with the index is the phrase "The CPI generally defines corruption as "the misuse of public power for private benefit"" - does this logically include actions taken not for persona benefit, but for that of a friend, colleague or associate? Most corruption in Ireland isn't related to private gain but to cronyism.


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    #54
    Macdarack
    Registered Users Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Macdarack


    If a case can collapse because the lead detective dies, then if you are charged with a murder and you organise to kill the lead detective do you get away with it?
    How can this case not be picked up by another detective?
    Also the family of Byrne giving out about justice not being served tfor their scumbag son who was a suspect in another murder pisses me off, how dare they demand justice.


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    I can’t read between the lines here.

    He killed himself, it’s as simple as that or else spill the beans.


    I am relatively unfamiliar with this story, but it's being openly implied in the thread that 'the bad guys' threatened the detective that they'd do harm to his family, presumably if he didn't collapse the case intentionally, and he presumably felt too much pressure and figured this was the way to go (suicide).

    But again, I'm not clued in.


    However, should that be the case, I see no reason why this suicide shouldn't be a major ongoing concern nationally. If I can threaten to murder/rape/whatever a Garda's family, and actually get away with it, we're in major trouble.


    Don't get me wrong, An Garda Siochana has been a generally useless service for all of my lifetime of interaction with them (I'm 30). Individually, nice people, but collectively, they're more of a farce than a force.

    Policing is one thing this country just can't seem to get right at all, and has never really tried to, either. Annoyingly, if low-level and trivial crimes were dealt with (and I don't mean no car tax) severely, you'd probably filter out a lot of the big issues in a few years if people were afraid to get involved in major crime.

    But as we know, unless you kill or rape (or cheat the tax man) you don't get punished in this country, and when you do, it's usually fairly minor punishment.


  • Options
    #56
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Macdarack wrote: »
    If a case can collapse because the lead detective dies, then if you are charged with a murder and you organise to kill the lead detective do you get away with it?
    How can this case not be picked up by another detective?
    Also the family of Byrne giving out about justice not being served tfor their scumbag son who was a suspect in another murder pisses me off, how dare they demand justice.

    The issue isn't the lead detective's death, it's the notes he wrote prior to his death and his communications with others which seem to point to some kind of wrongdoing on the part of the investigating Gardaí. People should go back and read the articles published in the weeks prior to his death about why the trial was stalling - it would appear that The Gardaí either intentionally or incompetently f*cked up the procedure by which Hutch was identified from photographs - the identification which would have justified their subsequently charging him, holding him for extra questioning, getting warrants to search his house, etc. If the basis for that probable cause was inherently rule-breaking, then everything they collected in evidence including statements from the accused would be considered inadmissible in court.

    What seems to have happened is that during the blind identification process - where multiple Gardaí are required to independently identify the accused from footage taken at the scene of the crime - the Gardaí involved spoke to eachother or prompted eachother with the suggestion that it was Hutch, so the identification process wasn't truly "blind". If this was the case, then everything which was collected on foot of this probable cause - any arrests made, any warrants against the accused, any searches of his property, etc - was illegal, and is therefore not admissible in court in any form whatsoever.

    I suspect that Supt. Fox shot himself either because he was being bullied into going along with this, or because he couldn't live with having been involved of his own free will - or because he knew that the case would collapse once this issue was discovered and raised in court by the defence, which happened just weeks prior to his death.


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    #57
    n!ghtmancometh
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭n!ghtmancometh


    They accepted the two detective's ID, the court case stalled after the DS's suicide. Obviously something involved with that came to light and the DPP felt they couldn't continue with the prosecution. Wouldn't speculate anything beyond that at this point.


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    #58
    Macdarack
    Registered Users Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Macdarack


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The issue isn't the lead detective's death, it's the notes he wrote prior to his death and his communications with others which seem to point to some kind of wrongdoing on the part of the investigating Gardaí. People should go back and read the articles published in the weeks prior to his death about why the trial was stalling - it would appear that The Gardaí either intentionally or incompetently f*cked up the procedure by which Hutch was identified from photographs - the identification which would have justified their subsequently charging him, holding him for extra questioning, getting warrants to search his house, etc. If the basis for that probable cause was inherently rule-breaking, then everything they collected in evidence including statements from the accused would be considered inadmissible in court.

    What seems to have happened is that during the blind identification process - where multiple Gardaí are required to independently identify the accused from footage taken at the scene of the crime - the Gardaí involved spoke to eachother or prompted eachother with the suggestion that it was Hutch, so the identification process wasn't truly "blind". If this was the case, then everything which was collected on foot of this probable cause - any arrests made, any warrants against the accused, any searches of his property, etc - was illegal, and is therefore not admissible in court in any form whatsoever.

    I suspect that Supt. Fox shot himself either because he was being bullied into going along with this, or because he couldn't live with having been involved of his own free will - or because he knew that the case would collapse once this issue was discovered and raised in court by the defence, which happened just weeks prior to his death.
    Thanks for that, retrial?


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    #59
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The issue isn't the lead detective's death, it's the notes he wrote prior to his death and his communications with others which seem to point to some kind of wrongdoing on the part of the investigating Gardaí. People should go back and read the articles published in the weeks prior to his death about why the trial was stalling - it would appear that The Gardaí either intentionally or incompetently f*cked up the procedure by which Hutch was identified from photographs - the identification which would have justified their subsequently charging him, holding him for extra questioning, getting warrants to search his house, etc. If the basis for that probable cause was inherently rule-breaking, then everything they collected in evidence including statements from the accused would be considered inadmissible in court.

    What seems to have happened is that during the blind identification process - where multiple Gardaí are required to independently identify the accused from footage taken at the scene of the crime - the Gardaí involved spoke to eachother or prompted eachother with the suggestion that it was Hutch, so the identification process wasn't truly "blind". If this was the case, then everything which was collected on foot of this probable cause - any arrests made, any warrants against the accused, any searches of his property, etc - was illegal, and is therefore not admissible in court in any form whatsoever.

    I suspect that Supt. Fox shot himself either because he was being bullied into going along with this, or because he couldn't live with having been involved of his own free will - or because he knew that the case would collapse once this issue was discovered and raised in court by the defence, which happened just weeks prior to his death.

    Good theory, hardly a huge conspiracy like we have been told.

    Just a cock up.


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    #60
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Good theory, hardly a huge conspiracy like we have been told.

    Just a cock up.

    I suspect the allegation is that it was done on purpose, that they intentionally tried to build an illegitimate case against him a la Ian Bailey.


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    #61
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    I can’t understand how the Garda aren’t allowed ask each other if they recognize Mr X from a photo??

    If they do it will collapse a trial??

    Like in a station they cant ask in front of other garda is that Mr X.

    Madness.


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