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Regency Hotel shooting trial collapses following Detective Superintendent's suicide

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    I can’t understand how the Garda aren’t allowed ask each other if they recognize Mr X from a photo??

    If they do it will collapse a trial??

    Like in a station they cant ask in front of other garda is that Mr X.

    Madness.


    It's nonsense. People are confusing different rules of identification.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Okay, the notes Fox had wrote down are clearly significant these need to be disclosed. More so now if the case has been thrown out.

    Also what was found on the confiscated laptop and usb keys after his death. This to me is clearly a case of the DPP guards.not wanting to take this further for fear of something damaging coming out

    The notes are an excuse. If evidence has been collected any police officer can present it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 693 ✭✭✭The Satanist


    This will quietly go away; the political/media/ usual outraged types aren't interested in gangland stuff once it doesn't darken their doorstep.


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Judge Brian Curtin walked free because a warrant used to search his house was out of date, even though they did find the evidence they were looking for. The courts take these procedural matters extremely seriously.
    Sometimes they do. I remember a case in Dundalk about 10 years ago where they had the wrong address on a warrant and it was still allowed since the intent was clear. Couple of years later I saw another case where it was inadmissible. Ho hum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    I really don't know where to start. All those people accepting it as great as Ireland being ranked 18th on the corruption index as are fools to accept such mediocrity.

    It is unfathomable that this case has collapsed. The country is turning into a cesspit before our eyes. Gangsters in control of the country at all levels.

    If you can't see that then more fool on you. The I am alright Jack's will continue to claim utopia.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,277 ✭✭✭Your Face


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    I really don't know where to start. All those people accepting it as great as Ireland being ranked 18th on the corruption index as are fools to accept such mediocrity.

    It is unfathomable that this case has collapsed. The country is turning into a cesspit before our eyes. Gangsters in control of the country at all levels.

    If you can't see that then more fool on you. The I am alright Jack's will continue to claim utopia.

    I agree we shouldn't accept mediocrity.

    Out of interest, what would you suggest to make our country better?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,393 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    I really don't know where to start. All those people accepting it as great as Ireland being ranked 18th on the corruption index as are fools to accept such mediocrity.

    It is unfathomable that this case has collapsed. The country is turning into a cesspit before our eyes. Gangsters in control of the country at all levels.

    If you can't see that then more fool on you. The I am alright Jack's will continue to claim utopia.

    Its no Utopia but its no Cesspit either. It has its positives and negatives.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Was he not found with 3 AK47s, or am I hearing radio reports wrong? Should that in itself not get you a few years?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    The gangsters and the state in cahoots


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Don't worry everyone. We'll get full disclosure of what went wrong here, followed by robust measures to make sure it never happens again.

    Only joking. It'll be just like the Kieran Boylan affair. A whitewash that never gets mentioned again and that most people forget about because their attention's diverted by the twitter outrage news cycle.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    Anyone else think Patrick Hutch looks well sort of convincing in that pic?

    If ya get me....













    Like would ya?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Anyone else think Patrick Hutch looks well sort of convincing in that pic?

    If ya get me....













    Like would ya?

    He looks like a scene from Some like it hot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    He'll most likely end up dead in the next while anyway and save us all the cost of keeping him in jail. So meh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/detective-tells-court-he-recognised-patrick-hutch-from-regency-hotel-photograph-823339.html
    Detective tells court he recognised Patrick Hutch from Regency Hotel photograph
    Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - 05:53 PM

    By Daniel Hickey

    A detective who looked at a photo that had been taken outside the Regency Hotel in Dublin on the day of a fatal shooting there "immediately recognized" a man dressed as a woman and holding a gun as Patrick Hutch, the Special Criminal Court has heard this morning.

    The detective denied under cross-examination that he and his colleague, who also identified Mr Hutch, were not separated during the identification process.

    The shooting had happened, the court has previously heard, during a boxing weigh-in at the hotel, when a man dressed as a woman and another wearing a flat cap, armed with handguns, followed by three people dressed in tactical-style garda uniforms and carrying assault rifles, raided the venue.

    Mr Hutch (25) of Champions Avenue, Dublin 1, is pleading not guilty to the murder of David Byrne (34) at the Regency Hotel in Dublin on February 5th 2016.

    It is the prosecution’s case that Mr Hutch was the man dressed as a woman and that he did not shoot Mr Byrne but was part of a "shared intention" to commit the offence.

    Mr Hutch also denies possessing three AK47 assault rifles in connection with the fatal shooting.

    Michael O’Higgins SC, for Mr Hutch, told the court this morning/yesterday (Wed) that the defence is objecting to evidence that two detectives identified his client as the man dressed as the woman.

    The evidence is therefore being heard in ’voir dire’ - or a ’trial within a trial’ - to help the three judges determine its admissibility.

    The court heard today that two days after the fatal shooting two detectives, Fergal O’Flaherty and Jonathan Brady, went to Ballymun garda station to view a picture taken outside the Regency Hotel.

    The court has previously heard evidence that a photographer contracted to the Sunday World, who was at the hotel to cover the weigh-in, took a photo of two people standing outside the hotel, and that one of them was wearing a wig and holding a gun.

    Detective Garda O’Flaherty told prosecuting counsel Sean Gillane SC that he looked at the picture on a monitor in a small office in the station and "immediately recognized" the person on the left.

    "I let it be known I knew who the person was," he said.

    "Who was that person?" Mr Gillane asked.

    "The man before the court," the detective said, "Patrick Hutch."

    He said that he then spoke to Sergeant Patrick O’Toole outside the office and told him it was Patrick Hutch.

    He said that he had known Mr Hutch "since he was a young fella".

    "He was always very mannerly, always very polite," Det Gda O’Flaherty said.

    Detective Garda Brady told Mr Gillane that his colleague had looked at the picture and said, "I know that person, I’m saying nothing".

    He said that Det Gda O’Flaherty then came from behind the desk and left the room.

    Det Gda Brady then went around to the other side of the desk and looked at the picture on the monitor, the court heard.

    He said that he "immediately recognized the person on the left as Patrick Hutch" and that he was "the accused before the court".

    The detective said that he knew Mr Hutch’s family and also the accused man.

    The court heard that that in August 2014 Mr Hutch attended the Mater Hospital as a result of gunshot wounds and that the detective spoke to him but Mr Hutch refused to give information.

    Det Gda Brady said that over the following weeks he met Mr Hutch again, asking him what had happened, but that Mr Hutch would not tell him.

    He arrested the accused man on March 2nd, 2015 in relation to that shooting and interviewed him twice, the court heard.

    Under cross-examination, the detective agreed with Mr O’Higgins that Mr Hutch has no previous convictions but that he is a person "well known" to gardai

    "There is no way of avoiding the reality, he is a Hutch," the barrister said.

    The detective agreed.

    "And that has a certain resonance for An Garda Siochana," Mr O’Higgins said.

    "We certainly have an interest in some of the Hutches," the detective said.

    Mr O’Higgins then listed some of the references to the accused man in the Garda PULSE system.

    He said that when in 1999 his client’s father had visited a garda station to get a passport his three children’s names were put on the passport and Patrick Hutch was seven years old at the time.

    The detective agreed that gardai had been keeping information on Patrick Hutch and that there is a "family tree" in the PULSE records referring to the accused man’s brother, Gary Hutch, who was shot dead in Spain.

    The court heard that there were thirty-seven incidents related to Patrick Hutch recorded in PULSE, and that "almost all of them", with the exception of the gunshot injury, were "pretty small stuff", including numerous drug searches and an incident when Mr Hutch’s presence outside a pub was "just simply noted".

    The detective agreed that these records were kept to "build up a profile" on the accused man.

    Mr O’Higgins said that he had counted almost 40 gardai having entered material about him and that the vast bulk were from officers in Store St and Mountjoy garda stations.

    The detective agreed.

    Mr O’Higgins then referred to the statements made by Detectives Brady and O’Flaherty seven days after the shooting at the Regency.

    Both statements were read to the court.

    The detective accepted that the statements were "very similar".

    "Is that a coincidence?" Mr O’Higgins asked.

    Det Gda Brady said that the statements were dealing with the same events and that both he and Det Gda O’Flaherty knew Mr Hutch for "pretty much the same reasons".

    Mr O’Higgins then noted "six points of omission" in Det Gda Brady’s statement and said that the evidence heard earlier that the men were not in the office together when identifying Mr Hutch was not in the statements.

    He suggested the reason for this omission was that it did not happen.

    "The events did happen," the witness said.

    Mr O’Higgins also read to the court from a transcript of bail hearing for Mr Hutch from December 21st, 2016, when Det Gda Brady had testified.

    The court heard the detective had said that his colleague "stood and looked at the screen and said, ’I’ll let you decide’, and he stepped back," and that when when Det Gda Brady looked at the picture, he said, "’I knew who this was’, and I said who it was, and he [Det Gda O’Flaherty] said the same."

    Mr O’Higgins suggested that there appeared to be a "single interpretation" which was "everybody having the conversation in each other’s presence".

    The detective said that in evidence today he had given a "more detailed description of what had happened".

    The court also heard that during the bail hearing Mr O’Higgins had asked the detective if before going to Ballymun garda station to view the photos was he "aware that the Hutch-Kinahan feud was something the guards were looking at?"

    The detective said that he was aware and that it was "in the news".

    The barrister said that he asked if it was known the detective knew any of the Hutches and the answer he gave was, "Judge, it’d be taken for granted I knew some of the Hutches, as would most members".

    Mr O’Higgins then cross-examined Det Gda O’Flaherty, who said that although there were "some similarities" in their statements, they had made them "independently".

    The detective said that when they walked into the office in Ballymun garda station, he did not know he was going to recognize somebody and that the evidence was not "contrived".

    "We walked into the room together, and made the identification," he said.

    He said that if he knew he was about to make an identification, they would have "went in separately".

    "It didn’t work out that way," the witness added.

    "What was the purpose of you leaving the room?" the barrister asked.

    "If I had said his name out loud there and then, [Det Gda Brady’s] identification would have been no good," Det Gda O’Flaherty said

    THe barrister put it to the detective that the reason why his first statement made no reference to him leaving the room and that he only named Mr Hutch outside the room was that it never happened.

    "That’s not true," the detective said.

    The trial continues tomorrow in front of Mr Justice Tony Hunt, presiding, sitting with Judge Patricia Ryan and Judge Ann Ryan.

    Reading between the lines here it seems that some physical evidence has come out either Emails or other communication that shows that there may have been a Garda Conspiracy to name Hutch given the similarity of the Statements and the seizure of emails between members.

    Unfortunately this state has a long history of similar things happening.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/detective-tells-court-he-recognised-patrick-hutch-from-regency-hotel-photograph-823339.html


    Reading between the lines here it seems that some physical evidence has come out either Emails or other communication that shows that there may have been a Garda Conspiracy to name Hutch given the similarity of the Statements and the seizure of emails between members.

    Unfortunately this state has a long history of similar things happening.

    Are you scriptwriter for Murder She Wrote? or do you just enjoy posting speculative ****e?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Edgware wrote: »
    Are you scriptwriter for Murder She Wrote? or do you just enjoy posting speculative ****e?

    Are you in denial??


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/regency-hotel-case-garda-and-gsoc-to-investigate-trial-collapse-1.3800874?mode=amp

    It has emerged that among the notes of Det Supt Colm Fox, who led the Byrne murder investigation and subsequently took his own life, was one referring to an error of judgement which appears to relate to the inquiry under his management.

    Det Supt Fox was found dead in his office at Ballymun Garda station last February after the trial of Patrick Hutch had already begun. Neither foul play nor third-party involvement was suspected in his death, which was treated as a personal tragedy.

    And because he could not answer questions at the trial about his notes and other evidence, the trial process could go no further. The State entered a nolle prosequi (declaring its intention not to proceed) before the Special Criminal Court on Wendesday.

    The guards in this country do not have a sterling record with this sort of thing

    1. Seargant McCabe
    2. The Pulse System contraversy
    3. Ian Bailey
    4. Frank McBrearty in Donegal https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/senior-gardai-deny-conspiracy-campaign-against-publican-26065285.html
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-superintendent-denies-conspiring-to-catch-detective-1.502271

    etc.

    It looks like this MAY have been a case of Murder they wrote.

    It might have been done for some sort of nationalistic reasons but if they dont have clear evidence you can't make it up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭Phibsboro



    I don't think it is as simple as a fit up of Patrick H. The mention of usb's in particular seems to go beyond coordination of the identification. Also, the state has known the outcome of the Fox death investigation for a couple of months now and they haven't been able to sort out a basis for an immediate re-arrest/re-trial. That suggests the underlying story is an absolute sh*tshow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Phibsboro wrote: »
    I don't think it is as simple as a fit up of Patrick H. The mention of usb's in particular seems to go beyond coordination of the identification. Also, the state has known the outcome of the Fox death investigation for a couple of months now and they haven't been able to sort out a basis for an immediate re-arrest/re-trial. That suggests the underlying story is an absolute sh*tshow.

    They only identifying evidence they produced was the Detectives ID.

    They had no scene eyewitnesses or physical evidence.

    If that collapsed then their case collapses


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭Phibsboro


    They only identifying evidence they produced was the Detectives ID.

    They had no scene eyewitnesses or physical evidence.

    If that collapsed then their case collapses

    Right, but the picture is public and it does appear to be him! They must have an other guard (or 10) who could identify him from that pic.

    Just looking at the independent video of the Byrne family demo outside and they have various posters that the Indo blurred out, but you can catch one in the background. What is on the USB?

    1IP9hBT.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Terrible thing to happen to a hard working family to have their son murdered. I heard he was very good to his mother


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/detective-tells-court-he-recognised-patrick-hutch-from-regency-hotel-photograph-823339.html


    Reading between the lines here it seems that some physical evidence has come out either Emails or other communication that shows that there may have been a Garda Conspiracy to name Hutch given the similarity of the Statements and the seizure of emails between members.

    Unfortunately this state has a long history of similar things happening.

    I really doubt this argument, its far too trite. In any case the judges accepted the photos as evidence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    They only identifying evidence they produced was the Detectives ID.

    They had no scene eyewitnesses or physical evidence.

    If that collapsed then their case collapses

    Isn't it a bit odd that the freaking reporter who took a picture was not a witness. Or anybody else who saw it. Intimidation I suppose.

    There could have been Garda corruption in this case but its hardly this trivial if so. Theres a lot of nonsense talked here about how two police officers can't identify the same guy from a photo. Of course they can.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭ToBeFrank123


    I am relatively unfamiliar with this story, but it's being openly implied in the thread that 'the bad guys' threatened the detective that they'd do harm to his family, presumably if he didn't collapse the case intentionally, and he presumably felt too much pressure and figured this was the way to go (suicide).

    But again, I'm not clued in.


    However, should that be the case, I see no reason why this suicide shouldn't be a major ongoing concern nationally. If I can threaten to murder/rape/whatever a Garda's family, and actually get away with it, we're in major trouble.


    Don't get me wrong, An Garda Siochana has been a generally useless service for all of my lifetime of interaction with them (I'm 30). Individually, nice people, but collectively, they're more of a farce than a force.

    Policing is one thing this country just can't seem to get right at all, and has never really tried to, either. Annoyingly, if low-level and trivial crimes were dealt with (and I don't mean no car tax) severely, you'd probably filter out a lot of the big issues in a few years if people were afraid to get involved in major crime.

    But as we know, unless you kill or rape (or cheat the tax man) you don't get punished in this country, and when you do, it's usually fairly minor punishment.

    I would imagine Gardaí of all ranks get threats from criminals on a daily basis and its part of the job. Its very rare/unheard of for criminals to actually go after a Garda's family though as they know it would bring the full resources of the state down on them. As a last resort the detective could have gone into protective custody with his family and taken his pension. Its happened a number of times in Ireland including with the Collins family in Limerick. I am not doubting the motives of the detective in taking his life if he did that, but its a shame he felt no other way out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Gardai, Army, Housing, Health, Justice System, Politics are all a joke in this country.
    My mam has pestered me for 8 months now that my own son is born, to get out of here quick. I fear she may be right more and more every day
    She has lived in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Isle of Man


    Im sure all of those places have their problems, NZ is an example, I thought it'd be nice to head that way myself, but they have serious problems with poverty and crime, Isle of Man maybe less so, but Oz, Canada, big places with potential for problems as much as here, might be a bit more straight laced and professional about dealing with crime, but Ive no doubt they have their problems.


    I heard the true story a year ago and was told this would happen today.
    It's explosive and I'd be banned if I posted up here but be prepared for shocking news regarding this case and gsoc inquiry.
    If you take a step back forget media spin it's actually quite easy to work out.
    ?, collusion with criminal gangs? one side, the other, both? or they had something on the Garda in question??

    The issue isn't the lead detective's death, it's the notes he wrote prior to his death and his communications with others which seem to point to some kind of wrongdoing on the part of the investigating Gardaí. People should go back and read the articles published in the weeks prior to his death about why the trial was stalling - it would appear that The Gardaí either intentionally or incompetently f*cked up the procedure by which Hutch was identified from photographs - the identification which would have justified their subsequently charging him, holding him for extra questioning, getting warrants to search his house, etc. If the basis for that probable cause was inherently rule-breaking, then everything they collected in evidence including statements from the accused would be considered inadmissible in court.

    What seems to have happened is that during the blind identification process - where multiple Gardaí are required to independently identify the accused from footage taken at the scene of the crime - the Gardaí involved spoke to eachother or prompted eachother with the suggestion that it was Hutch, so the identification process wasn't truly "blind". If this was the case, then everything which was collected on foot of this probable cause - any arrests made, any warrants against the accused, any searches of his property, etc - was illegal, and is therefore not admissible in court in any form whatsoever.

    I suspect that Supt. Fox shot himself either because he was being bullied into going along with this, or because he couldn't live with having been involved of his own free will - or because he knew that the case would collapse once this issue was discovered and raised in court by the defence, which happened just weeks prior to his death.


    Dont they have a cheat sheet, standard format flow chart or something to deal with this, a checklist??? do this, that the other? how difficult is it to have procedures and a system to inform the users of that system how it works, steps to take, things to avoid, to be able to present cases and prevent them being undermined???

    Wombatman wrote: »
    The gardaí were conspicuously absent on the day of the Regency shooting. There where journos all over the place, almost expecting something to go down. I think the emails under review may contain damning info as to why the gardaí were "stood down" on the day.


    Why? because they have taken a side? wanted to catch someone in the act? avoid getting hit in the crossfire? doesnt surprise me if true, I recal reading somewhere that The General didnt want to do jobs in the UK as he felt the British police would be more likely to stitch him up, and then after years of having lots of Gardai on his back, he then gets shot and none around?

    Dante7 wrote: »
    It's not just a procedural cock-up. If it was simply that, he would have been immediately rearrested. The DPP requested that a nolle prosequi be entered. This allows for an accused to be rearrested and charged again. However, it is unlikely that Hutch will ever be brought to trial again. The evidence is there, but the revelations will be too unpalatable.


    revelations?

    Okay, the notes Fox had wrote down are clearly significant these need to be disclosed. More so now if the case has been thrown out.

    Also what was found on the confiscated laptop and usb keys after his death. This to me is clearly a case of the DPP guards.not wanting to take this further for fear of something damaging coming out


    If this is the way Ireland is, its shameful really, that they'd prevent a prosecution to protect the image of the Gardai, the state or individuals


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Phibsboro wrote: »
    Right, but the picture is public and it does appear to be him! They must have an other guard (or 10) who could identify him from that pic.

    Just looking at the independent video of the Byrne family demo outside and they have various posters that the Indo blurred out, but you can catch one in the background. What is on the USB?

    The problem is that when they initially went to get warrants for his arrest, search, detention longer than standard for questioning etc, the "evidence" they presented to a judge in order to obtain said warrants was entirely based on having gone through the formal identification process where two individual Gardaí separately claimed that they had identified him from the photograph without prompting or suggestion from other Gardaí. if this turned out not to be the case, as is the most likely scenario here in my view, then literally all other evidence they collected is invalid as far as mounting a case goes - anything they found when they searched his house, for example, would have been found on the basis of a warrant which would now be deemed invalid since the evidence used to convince a judge to grant the warrant was false, IE that two individual Gardaí identified him separately in the photograph thus giving them reasonable grounds for suspicion.

    Think of it like a flow chart. The chart begins with "do you have enough evidence to obtain a warrant or to prolong detention for questioning". If the answer is yes, then you go on and collect evidence. All of the evidence collected in this way remains on that side of the flow chart, under the answer "yes" to the original question. This is how, for example, they found the AK47s allegedly in his possession - they would have had to get a warrant to search his house, and their probable cause was a positive outcome of this photo identification process.

    If the answer to the original question - "do you have enough evidence to obtain a warrant" - subsequently changes from "yes" to "no", then every action taken under the "yes" part of the flow chart becomes illegal and thus invalid as evidence.

    In this case, that means that anything they did which required them to demonstrate probable cause before being allowed to do, such as detaining him for extra questioning, searching is house, bugging his phones etc, now becomes tainted evidence which cannot be relied upon in court to secure a conviction.

    So to take a specific example in this case, he was apparently found with AK47s in his possession. But if this happened while a warrant was being executed to arrest him or search his house, and that warrant was only granted to the Gardai because they had probable cause in the form of a positive photo identification test with two separate Gardai, then if the defence can prove that this photo identification process was corrupted (for example, by collusion between Gardai to name him even if they didn't genuinely recognise him, which could easily be what was discovered when mobile devices and USB devices were seized during the Fox investigation), then literally any evidence collected on foot of those warrants is fundamentally compromised and can be easily picked apart by the defence even in the unlikely event that it is indeed deemed admissible before the court. So it doesn't matter if he was caught red handed with those AK47s - if they searched his house using an illegally obtained warrant, it becomes irrelevant as far as prosecuting him goes. It simply cannot be used as the basis for a conviction.

    Think of an investigation like this as a tree with lots of different branches. If the shared root of any of those branches is a piece of testimony or evidence which is subsequently deemed tainted or invalid, then every branch stemming from that particular root has to be cut off as well as the root itself.

    Another analogy would be if you think of building a case like making plans with a friend - the first question is "are we both free today, Thursday the 21st of February, to do something". We both answer yes, and we then make a whole day's worth of plans based on that - go to the cinema, have a pint, go for a walk, go to a gig, watch a TV show, have dinner, whatever.

    If the answer to that original question subsequently changes - "oh sh!t, I forgot I'm supposed to be visiting relatives today, I'll have to bail" - then every single other decision which was made under the assumption that the answer was "yes", also has to be written off.

    In this case, it would appear that this is what happened. The real question is why - was it a case of someone accidentally f*cking up, was it an Ian Bailey copycat in which they decided Hutch was guilty and skipped the process of actually proving it beyond "everyone just knows it was him so let's nail the f*cker", or was it a case of actual corruption in which someone said "someone's paid us off to get Hutch out of the picture, or we want to protect the person who actually did it so let's pin it on him, or we're being blackmailed by the Kinahans to get him with or without a legal process" etc. There are numerous possibilities and in my view the public deserves to know the exact details of that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 81 ✭✭PingTing comes for Fire




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick



    I don't know how much that differs from the Irish system, but in my view exception number four is key:

    "4: the search warrant was not found to be valid based on probable cause, but was executed by government agents in good faith (called the good-faith exception)."

    I suspect in this case that the notes made by Supt. Fox, or the discussions between colleagues discovered upon GSOC inspection of electronic devices, proved that it was done on purpose or intentionally - or that they knew they'd f*cked it up but decided to hide that fact when presenting evidence to the court in order to get a warrant - and that this thus nullifies any "good faith" on their part.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    I thought someone was caught bringing the ak 47s back across the border?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 81 ✭✭PingTing comes for Fire


    I don't know how much that differs from the Irish system, but in my view exception number four is key:

    "4: the search warrant was not found to be valid based on probable cause, but was executed by government agents in good faith (called the good-faith exception)."

    I suspect in this case that the notes made by Supt. Fox, or the discussions between colleagues discovered upon GSOC inspection of electronic devices, proved that it was done on purpose or intentionally - or that they knew they'd f*cked it up but decided to hide that fact when presenting evidence to the court in order to get a warrant - and that this thus nullifies any "good faith" on their part.

    It's a concept more than a law. The analogy of a tree and fruit just help explain it. You keep mentioning warrants and questioning but in fact the original power to arrest was based on this now supposedly tainted evidence. Arresting him without having a legal power of arrest would itself lead to the case being thrown out.
    Ireland and US are in a number of countries known as Common Law Jurisdictions. They're legal systems derive from the old English Common Law. There are differences and similarities. Occassionally cases in other CL jurisdictions can even carry some degree of persuasion in court.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 746 ✭✭✭GinAndBitter


    I thought someone was caught bringing the ak 47s back across the border?

    There was a fella caught with them in Slane, on his way back up North.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/three-ak47-assault-rifles-used-in-regency-hotel-attack-seized-by-gardai-34527790.html


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