If nurofen plus (codeine) can be sold otc, why not other drugs?

Gimme A Pound · 22-02-2019 12:31pm

Very fair point about the difficulty to acquire effective pain relief in this country.

Actually it's being discussed on Cork's RedFM now. Also they featured a story recently about a young woman in west Cork who cut off her finger due to the pain.

22-02-2019 12:40pm

A minority of people are genetically predisposed to severe addiction to any opiate, and it can be devastating for them. Such people have often spoken on radio (Liveline etc), Late Late Show etc. Their lives are taken over in relentless pursuit of legally available codeine, visiting pharmacies all over the country. One or two have even had to have liver transplants because of the paracetamol element in the products, which affected people take in toxic quantities in pursuit of an increasingly codeine intake.

KevinCavan · 22-02-2019 12:43pm

Having watched Netflix shows about addiction in America, I’m glad we are not casually handing over strong pills over the counter.

22-02-2019 12:46pm

In recent weeks/months I had a total knee replacement and in my case it has been extremely painful. Not everybody gets the amount of swelling I did as somebody in my fifties, and indeed the elderly in their 80s tend to fare much better as their tissues don’t typically react so “violently”, so I do notes t to scare anybody about this surgery which many have to undergo. Pain control was challenging to say the least, and I ended up taking s lot of Ibobrufen. Doctors taper off the opiates quite early, and I managed further tapering off on one packet of Solpadeine from the chemist. However, ice tends to be the best painkiller of all but it’s hard to go around with bags of ice attached to leg!

noubliezjamais · 22-02-2019 12:48pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Having watched Netflix shows about addiction in America, I’m glad we are not casually handing over strong pills over the counter.

Would it really stop anything to be honest? As someone said in a previous post, the addiction problem in the States stemmed from doctors cutting off patients from medicines and them turning to cheaper and far more potent opiates (heroin, fentanyl) to continue their habit.

noubliezjamais · 22-02-2019 12:50pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Having watched Netflix shows about addiction in America, I’m glad we are not casually handing over strong pills over the counter.

And is this not confirmation bias in a way? not doubting there are actual addicts but given the number of Americans on prescription narcotics compared to the no. of people dying from them...would you not say it's a small number.

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-02-2019 12:53pm

Davian Round Pet wrote: »

Actually it's being discussed on Cork's RedFM now.

Would that be the Neil Prendeville show?

22-02-2019 12:55pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Having watched Netflix shows about addiction in America, I’m glad we are not casually handing over strong pills over the counter.

Huge issue in North America. A friend of mine living there for most of her life was in shock when my doctor cut back and withdrew opiates pretty soon after knee replacement. She went on and on about how my doctor was causing me suffering and that they would not put up with that there; of course the lawyer would be consulted there. I told her about documentaries I had been watching here on Channel 4 etc about North American opiate prescribing and addiction problems and she was stunned and rather in denial of course. Not that she herself had health complaints or was taking medication, but can not understand European approaches to pain relief. I believe in Netherlands they expect patients to be very stoic indeed and often don’t offer sedation for scope procedures etc.

Gimme A Pound · 22-02-2019 12:58pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Would that be the Neil Prendeville show?

What does that have to do with Nurofen?

:pac:

Mad_maxx · 22-02-2019 1:01pm

....... wrote: »

I find the cultural attitude to pain in Ireland bizarre. You are fully expected to live with pain rather than be prescribed a decent painkiller. I have experienced it numerous times over the years. And then they want to experiment on you with trying the lowest level stuff one at a time until something works, so you can spend a full 24 hours in pain instead of just giving you something thats going to work in the first place!

I needed a root canal before, I was already in agone, and the dentist began it, but became ill herself and I was rushed out of the place and told to come back in next morning to finish it - once the anasthetic wore off I was in absolute agony - so bad I felt like smashing myself in the face with a sledgehammer just to take the pain away.

Anyway - off to the chemist.

Have you tried aspirin? Unfortunately I have aspirin sensitivity.
Have you tried paracetamol? Yes - and I am smashing my face with a sledgehammer because of the pain - it didnt do anything.
Have you tried Nurofen? I have ibuprofen intolerance, cant take it.
Well I could give you Solphadeine - but you know, the codeine.......

So I changed tack - do you have anything that will put me asleep from now until the dentist can take me back in? Because, you know, Im in ABSOLUTE DENTAL AGONY.

I was then recommended to go to my GP (and spend another 60 quid) to get prescribed something).

I had to do that. My GP is luckily not a sadist, and prescribed me copious amounts of anti inflammatories that are not ibuprofen based plus some decent pain killers (sophodol I think).

So a packet of Solphadeine probably would have done the trick, instead I ended up with a 6 month prescription for heavier duty drugs.

Was in with my GP the other day and got the clichéd speech about how pain is subjective and people perceive it differently

Softened her cough when I replied that the pain medicine 101 lesson is nice to hear but does nothing to help me, excellent GP otherwise but if a doctor gives you that jaded spiel, it means they don't know how to fix your problem but want to sound good

On the culture surrounding pain, yes we are the other end of the spectrum where America is, enduring pain is seen as good for the soul, prescribing paracetamol for anything is an insult, medics under medicate in Ireland to an absurd degree

Gimme A Pound · 22-02-2019 1:01pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Having watched Netflix shows about addiction in America, I’m glad we are not casually handing over strong pills over the counter.

Same here, but there's a middle ground. Seems too much the other way in Ireland.

That woman i mentioned on a previous post was in such relentless intense pain for years that she cut her finger off.

Mad_maxx · 22-02-2019 1:04pm

noubliezjamais wrote: »

Interesting responses. I wonder if people think it's a case of Ireland underprescribing or the U.S. overprescribing?

The attitude In support of underprescription in Ireland that I've heard is that "at least we don't have the drug problem America has". That's doesn't seem true at all. In fact, one of the reasons the States has their opioid deaths isn't from overprescription but rather when patient were dependent (though on safe and pharmaceutical grade opiates)
on painkillers but were denied them or it became to expensive. They then turned to heroin and fentanyl.

I've even heard a former addict say the only time someone gets painkillers in UK/Ireland is if they are a former heroin addict (methadone) or have a terminal illness for palliative care.

Nothing is worse than pain, if you need to become some sort of addict to get by, so beit

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-02-2019 1:07pm

Davian Round Pet wrote: »

That woman i mentioned on a previous post was in such relentless intense pain for years that she cut her finger off.

I can't imagine how horrific it must have been... but her subsequent comments made me laugh. Everything from how casually she described "throwing the finger away" to "I'm grand..." Even the reference to Detol.

Bit of Detol, be grand.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/i-m-grand-cork-woman-cuts-off-finger-after-years-of-chronic-pain-1.3801499

noubliezjamais · 22-02-2019 1:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

In recent weeks/months I had a total knee replacement and in my case it has been extremely painful. Not everybody gets the amount of swelling I did as somebody in my fifties, and indeed the elderly in their 80s tend to fare much better as their tissues don’t typically react so “violently”, so I do notes t to scare anybody about this surgery which many have to undergo. Pain control was challenging to say the least, and I ended up taking s lot of Ibobrufen. Doctors taper off the opiates quite early, and I managed further tapering off on one packet of Solpadeine from the chemist. However, ice tends to be the best painkiller of all but it’s hard to go around with bags of ice attached to leg!

Were you prescribed oxycodone/morphine sulphate?

It's a bit hypocritical in all fairness the attitude towards "drugs" because no doubt many in this country would be fine with someone downing alcohol five times a day but would think of someone who takes 100mg of codeine on the weekend as a junkie.

....... · 22-02-2019 1:31pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Having watched Netflix shows about addiction in America, I’m glad we are not casually handing over strong pills over the counter.

Why?

Addiction does not follow handing out strong pain relief when necessary.

If you deny people decent pain relief they will find alternate ways of getting their hands on it that are more dangerous.

I find it bizarre tbh. If someone has pain then they should be allowed to access decent pain relief. This business of offering 2 aspirin for dental pain is just ridiculous nanny statism.

Mad_maxx · 22-02-2019 1:37pm

....... wrote: »

Why?

Addiction does not follow handing out strong pain relief when necessary.

If you deny people decent pain relief they will find alternate ways of getting their hands on it that are more dangerous.

I find it bizarre tbh. If someone has pain then they should be allowed to access decent pain relief. This business of offering 2 aspirin for dental pain is just ridiculous nanny statism.

Monocultural attitudes reign in Ireland when it comes to most things, it's very rare to meet a doctor with an independent view

noubliezjamais · 22-02-2019 1:39pm

....... wrote: »

Why?

Addiction does not follow handing out strong pain relief when necessary.

If you deny people decent pain relief they will find alternate ways of getting their hands on it that are more dangerous.

I find it bizarre tbh. If someone has pain then they should be allowed to access decent pain relief. This business of offering 2 aspirin for dental pain is just ridiculous nanny statism.

+1. Most of the opiods deaths in the U.S. are caused by doctors cutting off patients who then turn to cheaper alternatives (heroin, fentanyl)

Yenwod · 22-02-2019 1:40pm

Tzardine wrote: »

I was in Spain last year and popped into the local pharmacy to get some over the counter painkillers for a headache. I was given some dissolvable pills and told to take 2.

I took the Two of them and the headache was gone and I felt amazing. A real high.

Turns out they had 30mg of codeine each in them. So I took a 60mg dose. Was no wonder I felt great. These were over the counter, no questions asked. I can see why people get addicted to them.

For comparison, Two solpedine have 16
mg of codeine.

Still have the Spanish ones in the press in case I ever need to amputate a limb.

The same thing happened my mother in Spain when she had a toothache. Asked for solpedeine but was given things that were about 3 times the strength, which she didn’t realise. Said she spent the rest of the day floating around the town ðŸ€£

Sardonicat · 22-02-2019 1:42pm

Sounds like co-codamol. Same as Solpadol which is prescription only here.

Actually, wouldn't it be great if pharmacists could do that here. If you go in with extreme pain they can administrator and appropriate dose and send you on your way. No need to go through the 50 questions before they hand you over a packet and no need to see a GP. Just the amount you need when you'd need it.

Mad_maxx · 22-02-2019 1:47pm

Currently being treated for stomach pain so not able to take anything at the minute, my GP refused to give me octycontin

I broke a rib in 2007 and the pain hung around for exactly five and a half years, the drug which eventually cured me was versatis, had three nerve blocks which did nothing

Current pain stems from a 25kg block having fallen four feet onto my foot last summer, completely my neighbours fault but the medical fraternity were pretty neglectful as well at the start, my previous injury left my stomach in bits from all the tylex so this time I'm having to make do with steroid injections, ice and a tens machine which is helpful, injury also awakened pre existing arthritis so that's a guest for life now

Yes I'm not a lucky bunny in terms of injuries, pain sticks around when I get hurt

Sardonicat · 22-02-2019 1:50pm

I feel for you Max. I think you hit the nail on the head in an earlier post. It really is about time that cannabis products were made available to chronic pain sufferers such as yourself. I hope you find relief soon.

kneemos · 22-02-2019 2:01pm

Doctors have guidelines that dictate how much and how often they can prescribe painkillers.

Mad_maxx · 22-02-2019 2:03pm

kneemos wrote: »

Doctors have guidelines that dictate how much and how often they can prescribe painkillers.

Thanks for the beuracrats answer

those "guidelines" are unfit for purpose

jopax · 22-02-2019 7:57pm

Sardonicat wrote: »

Sounds like co-codamol. Same as Solpadol which is prescription only here.

Actually, wouldn't it be great if pharmacists could do that here. If you go in with extreme pain they can administrator and appropriate dose and send you on your way. No need to go through the 50 questions before they hand you over a packet and no need to see a GP. Just the amount you need when you'd need it.

That's actually a really good idea, it would be a better alternative than what way it is now.

Gimme A Pound · 22-02-2019 11:32pm

You've had a fecking shyte time Maxx - my dad broke a rib recently too and the poor man was in horrific pain. He said the worst was when he had to cough or if he sneezed. And tmi I know, but going for a "number 2" - hellish; poor thing.

My mother, who is far from someone who believes in pharmaceuticals being the answer all the time, was a nurse on a cancer ward years back and the look in the patients' eyes has haunted her since; they begged her to put them out of their misery.

My gran, a few months before she died (a great old age - nearly 100 - but was it great when her last few years were agony?) asked my cousin's husband if he knew any of them drug dealing fellas (he must have had that look about him in her head

) and if they could sort her out with something. It's funny but god love her.

I went to Cork University Hospital with a flipping horrendous tooth abscess one time (bank holiday Monday of course) and the dental hospital was closed so they said the doctor would see me (pointless exercise but anyway) - shur all he said was "Keep taking Nurofen" even when I told him three Nurofen at a time wasn't working. But went to the dentist the next day and whatever gear they gave me was unreal. :pac:

That 25-year-old woman in Cork who chopped her finger off because of years in severe pain (and tried to chop it off with an axe three and a half years ago too :eek:) - look at what she was driven to!

I was more devil's advocate earlier on this thread but my eyes have been seriously open, and a flood of memories have come back!

Always thought cannabis should be legalised but even moreso now.

It really is bad here all right - I wonder what it stems from? Kinda a self flagellating thing?

ArchXStanton · 22-02-2019 11:42pm

Davian Round Pet wrote: »

You've had a fecking shyte time Maxx - my dad broke a rib recently too and the poor man was in horrific pain. He said the worst was when he had to cough or if he sneezed. And tmi I know, but going for a "number 2" - hellish; poor thing.

My mother, who is far from someone who believes in pharmaceuticals being the answer all the time, was a nurse on a cancer ward years back and the look in the patients' eyes has haunted her since; they begged her to put them out of their misery.

My gran, a few months before she died (a great old age - nearly 100 - but was it great when her last few years were agony?) asked my cousin's husband if he knew any of them drug dealing fellas (he must have had that look about him in her head ) and if they could sort her out with something. It's funny but god love her.

I went to Cork University Hospital with a flipping horrendous tooth abscess one time (bank holiday Monday of course) and the dental hospital was closed so they said the doctor would see me (pointless exercise but anyway) - shur all he said was "Keep taking Nurofen" even when I told him three Nurofen at a time wasn't working. But went to the dentist the next day and whatever gear they gave me was unreal. :pac:

That 25-year-old woman in Cork who chopped her finger off because of years in severe pain (and tried to chop it off with an axe three and a half years ago too :eek:) - look at what she was driven to!

I was more devil's advocate earlier on this thread but my eyes have been seriously open, and a flood of memories have come back!

Always thought cannabis should be legalised but even moreso now.

It really is bad here all right - I wonder what it stems from? Kinda a self flagellating thing?

Put it this way, if you got a toothache on Friday evening and the dentists was closed and you couldn't get your hands on nurofen... The thought of pulling it out yourself with a pliers has gone through your head at least 100 times until Monday. Oh and ponstan are great for toothache aswell

Gimme A Pound · 23-02-2019 12:23pm

Ponstan - the menstrual pain drug!

That scene in Castaway where Tom Hanks can no longer stand his toothache so he crafts an extraction device with a rock and I think twine, and just goes for it. He blacks out from the pain but it's worth it.

flazio · 23-02-2019 12:26pm

noubliezjamais wrote: »

Just curious. codeine is a opiate, though very weak one. Despite the concerns about addiction that forced pharmacists to move it out of site but still remain non-prescription i.e. over the counter, no one has lost their home over it to move onto a cardboard box. I don't here people stealing for money.

Since codeine is in the opiate family (hydrocodone, oxycodone, morphine, diamorphine) and hasn't done much devestation, would you be in favor of making morphine otc?

If you're not then why? don't they all get converted into morphine in the liver? I suppose society is worried about theft but in all fairness, drug prices are caused by them being illegal and the bad dealers controlling the prices forcing desperate people to buy them. Nothing will stop people using drugs. If they were legalized and regulated and sold otc (oramorph for example), why would anyone steal to buy it? It would become just like nurofen.

I personally disagree with this. Good education on the effects and side effects and the possible reactions some may experience if they have an adverse reaction could make a difference.

Wanderer78 · 23-02-2019 12:31pm

flazio wrote:

I personally disagree with this. Good education on the effects and side effects and the possible reactions some may experience if they have an adverse reaction could make a difference.

Humans will always experiment with mind altering substances, we always have

gctest50 · 23-02-2019 12:38pm

noubliezjamais wrote: »

Just curious. codeine is a opiate, though very weak one. Despite the concerns about addiction that forced pharmacists to move it out of site but still remain non-prescription i.e. over the counter, no one has lost their home over it to move onto a cardboard box. I don't here people stealing for money.

............

The over-the-counter ones have a lot of paracetamol in them, if you get too fond of them you'll probably get liver failure from the paracetamol and end up in hospital (or dead) = why they can be sold over the counter

Set up a stall in a shopping centre handing out df118 and they'd be like cats around you

If nurofen plus (codeine) can be sold otc, why not other drugs?

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