Toyota hybrids

ofcork · 01-09-2018 7:56pm #1

I see Toyota have 4 new hybids coming next year camry rav 4 and corolla saloon and hatchback replacing auris looks good in pics.

unkel · 01-09-2018 8:48pm

All self-charging. Fantastic! I wish my own car would self-charge. Then I wouldn't have to plug it in twice a week. It would save me 2 minutes per week.

Leonard Hofstadter · 01-09-2018 8:54pm

It's very clever marketing to be fair, because it implies that Toyota's system is 'better' than what other manufacturers offer (despite being technically less advanced) - it's exactly the same as an ordinary car for the customer so no plugs or anything to worry about, but it uses less fuel.

Shefwedfan · 01-09-2018 8:56pm

ofcork wrote: »

I see Toyota have 4 new hybids coming next year camry rav 4 and corolla saloon and hatchback replacing auris looks good in pics.

New petrol/hybrid engine in them all

What they don't tell you is the current hybrid engine was meant for a Prius and nothing bigger. So in a RAV4 it is a disaster.

The Camry is a replacement for the Avensis which is gone the way of the dodo....
They will sell and sell well.....

bp_me · 01-09-2018 9:23pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What they don't tell you is the current hybrid engine was meant for a Prius and nothing bigger. So in a RAV4 it is a disaster.

Those are different engines.

Stuff coming next year is also new engines though supposedly based on the learnings from the most recent engine generation in prius and chr.

Shefwedfan · 01-09-2018 9:26pm

bp_me wrote: »

Those are different engines.

Stuff coming next year is also new engines though supposedly based on the learnings from the most recent engine generation in prius and chr.

Is that not what I said?

A new engine better for the larger car?

bp_me · 01-09-2018 9:29pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is that not what I said?

But the current engine (assuming you meant the 1.8) isn't in the rav 4. That gets the 2.5 that's common with the lexus NX and presumably IS models.

n97 mini · 01-09-2018 10:01pm

Most models have been available in the US for some time.

It's not really newsworthy. Toyota backed the wrong horse, hydrogen, and are trying to plaster over their mistake by marketing cars they've sold for years as something new... "self charging hybrids"

unkel · 01-09-2018 11:24pm

n97 mini wrote: »

It's not really newsworthy. Toyota backed the wrong horse, hydrogen

Many backed the wrong horse. Even some of our own personal favourites like Honda and BMW

It's worrying that most of the manufacturers going hydrogen haven't admitted defeat though. And the level of defiance from Toyota is staggering. The biggest car maker in the world a few years ago, they might be gone within a decade if they keep that up. No major credit to BMW or Honda here either though. New comers like Hyundai and Kia might take over and the might of the German heavy horse could still stamp down on things. And (here's hoping) Tesla will make a big impact.

n97 mini · 02-09-2018 12:17am

unkel wrote: »

Many backed the wrong horse. Even some of our own personal favourites like Honda and BMW

For sure. Didn't want to derail the thread by bringing up non-Toyota marques... but I think BMW have a good head start on Honda. Maybe Honda will pull a rabbit out of the hat, but as the largest maker of petrol engines on the planet they have the most to lose. I'm not overly optimistic, but who knows...

Round Cable · 02-09-2018 9:46am

unkel wrote: »

Many backed the wrong horse. Even some of our own personal favourites like Honda and BMW

And Hyundai! Despite their EV push, they still have their heads very much in the hydrogen clouds.

See what their Senior Vice President Lee Ki-sang has to say in The Korea Times.

Speaking about charging infrastructure and which technology will win out.

Lee Ki-sang wrote:

This is why I believe FCEV and EV will be the two main powertrains for a while, but ultimately, FCEV will prevail," Lee said. "And this is because I sometimes feel doubt about EVs, especially about its worn-out batteries, even though I'm leading Hyundai's eco-friendly segments including EVs.

The batteries in Hyundai EVs have actually proven quite durable.

My favourite part of the interview.

Lee Ki-sang wrote:

Millions of won in losses are incurred when we manufacture one Nexo, due to its huge overhead expenses and development costs compared to its small production volume," said Hyundai Motor Senior Vice President Lee Ki-sang who is heading Hyundai Motor's Eco-Technology Development Center. "Our financial division even calls it a money pit.

Then stop throwing money at it!

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=253964

daheff · 02-09-2018 9:50am

Thing about these hybrids is that the battery size is small so benefits are also small. Effectively means that a petrol hybrid gets the same efficiency as a diesel car.BUT diesel car is still cheaper to run because diesel is cheaper than petrol.

Struggling to find a reason to buy one over a diesel.

scooby77 · 02-09-2018 9:57am

daheff wrote: »

BUT diesel car is still cheaper to run because diesel is cheaper than petrol.

Agree. However a gradual erosion of the price differential, by the government, seems inevitable. Some think 3 years others 5...I'll split the difference!
Many pushing for immediate equalization...but I'd imagine that's politically unpalatable at the moment.

n97 mini · 02-09-2018 11:37am

daheff wrote: »

Thing about these hybrids is that the battery size is small so benefits are also small. Effectively means that a petrol hybrid gets the same efficiency as a diesel car.BUT diesel car is still cheaper to run because diesel is cheaper than petrol.

Struggling to find a reason to buy one over a diesel.

Diesel is cheaper because of an 11 cent difference in excise duty. That anomaly will eventually be corrected, making diesel slightly more expensive.

Not taken into account when comparing is the high stress components in a modern diesel that can and usually do fail at some point. DMF, DPF and turbos. All very expensive to get fixed, and none of which are in a hybrid. Batteries in a hybrid are the only expensive component, and a failure is very rare.

daheff · 02-09-2018 12:49pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Diesel is cheaper because of an 11 cent difference in excise duty. That anomaly will eventually be corrected,

Batteries in a hybrid are the only expensive component, and a failure is very rare.

Eventually could be a very long time away...or this years budget

Hybrid batteries do suffer from degradation....like a phone battery.

My biggest worry on my next car purchase is that technology is changing so fast that whatever I buy might be obsolete in a couple of years & I get no trade in value.

Shefwedfan · 02-09-2018 5:52pm

Anyone see pictures of the new RAV? I can't find any but my mate said loads got put up recently? I cant see anywhere?

ofcork · 02-09-2018 6:46pm

Saw it on the Toyota facebook page.

Orebro · 02-09-2018 6:50pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Anyone see pictures of the new RAV? I can't find any but my mate said loads got put up recently? I cant see anywhere?

https://www.toyota.ie/world-of-toyota/articles-news-events/2018/toyota-rav4-2019.json

Hope they've sorted the hybrid on this one, hearing reports of shocking mpg out of the exisiting one in hybrid form - some former diesel owners having heating conversations with their dealers over promised mpg not even getting close.

Shefwedfan · 02-09-2018 7:07pm

Orebro wrote: »

https://www.toyota.ie/world-of-toyota/articles-news-events/2018/toyota-rav4-2019.json

Hope they've sorted the hybrid on this one, hearing reports of shocking mpg out of the exisiting one in hybrid form - some former diesel owners having heating conversations with their dealers over promised mpg not even getting close.

My matehas it, bought a 181....I don't ask anymore, you just get this look

he was the one slagging me off for buying electric....I think he knows now who got better deal

Anyway, back to car....the interior looks similar to the C-HR....I just don't know what it is about the Toyota but I actually hate the interior, it looks so bloody cheap

For some reason he said it looked like the new 3008/5008 Peugeot, can't see it myself....

n97 mini · 02-09-2018 9:24pm

daheff wrote: »

Eventually could be a very long time away...or this years budget

Yep. But like death and taxes, it is a certainty.

daheff wrote: »

Hybrid batteries do suffer from degradation....like a phone battery.

Again, yep. But not catastrophic failure. Ever had a blown turbo or a wonky DMF? Car is unusable.

About the battery degradation... the amount of power available from the battery is so limited that the battery will last the life time of the car. I have a 14 year old hybrid that is still getting the same fuel economy as it did when I bought it 11 years ago. I don't know the exact battery figures, but consider the Vauxhall Ampera/Chevy Volt: 16kw battery but only 10kw available. This is purely for battery longevity.

unkel · 02-09-2018 10:43pm

daheff wrote: »

Hybrid batteries do suffer from degradation....like a phone battery.

My biggest worry on my next car purchase is that technology is changing so fast that whatever I buy might be obsolete in a couple of years & I get no trade in value.

You need to read this forum a bit more. Your points are not valid, no need to be concerned

zilog_jones · 05-09-2018 2:25pm

unkel wrote: »

All self-charging. Fantastic! I wish my own car would self-charge. Then I wouldn't have to plug it in twice a week. It would save me 2 minutes per week.

Sure it's dumb advertising, but I'm sure Toyota salesmen were sick to death of being asked "don't you have to plug it in?" - I'm sure this helps a lot getting that point across. Doesn't help the Prius PHV though...

bp_me wrote: »

But the current engine (assuming you meant the 1.8) isn't in the rav 4. That gets the 2.5 that's common with the lexus NX and presumably IS models.

Yeah, the current RAV4 uses the 2AR-FXE which has been around since about 2012 - the fuel economy looks fairly good in comparison to competing petrol V6's in the US, but not so much here.

The new model uses the A25A-FXS, which was only introduced last year in the Camry - and it's getting around 60 MPG in US EPA tests in that car.

unkel wrote: »

It's worrying that most of the manufacturers going hydrogen haven't admitted defeat though. And the level of defiance from Toyota is staggering. The biggest car maker in the world a few years ago, they might be gone within a decade if they keep that up.

When was the last time you heard about a Mirai though? They're saleproof, and Toyota aren't so dumb that they don't know that. They claim they'll have BEVs ready for the early 2020s (announced last year), but they need to get their act together.

One thing to note is that Toyota were selling RAV4 EVs over 20 years ago, but were burned by Ni-MH battery patent encumbrance (which also helped kill off the GM EV1). If that never happened, they could have been a much stronger contender in the EV market by now.

daheff wrote: »

Thing about these hybrids is that the battery size is small so benefits are also small. Effectively means that a petrol hybrid gets the same efficiency as a diesel car.BUT diesel car is still cheaper to run because diesel is cheaper than petrol.

Struggling to find a reason to buy one over a diesel.

Putting in a larger battery when there's no external charging capability is fairly pointless. That won't improve efficiency, only cost and weight. The new generation of Toyota hybrids are surpassing diesels in efficiency.

Also, there's a great reason to buy one over a diesel: They're not diesels! It's funny how the "chape tax" made people so complacent in buying cars with rattly smoky gutless engines (I'm talking about the typical Paddy-spec 1.6 diesel here). Also: Manual gearboxes in boring cars, in 2018? LOL

unkel · 05-09-2018 8:28pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

One thing to note is that Toyota were selling RAV4 EVs over 20 years ago, but were burned by Ni-MH battery patent encumbrance (which also helped kill off the GM EV1). If that never happened, they could have been a much stronger contender in the EV market by now.

That's a lame excuse for Toyota not having any EVs now. In the next model RAV4 (about 2010?) didn't Toyota use the Tesla battery and powertrain? And after a few years they stopped making it, gambling everything on hydrogen / hybrid instead

Orebro · 05-09-2018 8:55pm

unkel wrote: »

That's a lame excuse for Toyota not having any EVs now. In the next model RAV4 (about 2010?) didn't Toyota use the Tesla battery and powertrain? And after a few years they stopped making it, gambling everything on hydrogen / hybrid instead

They did and I remember there being one for sale on eBay last year - really lovely yokes too - such a pity they didn't run with it, imagine where we'd be now!

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

n97 mini · 05-09-2018 10:33pm

Orebro wrote: »

They did and I remember there being one for sale on eBay last year - really lovely yokes too - such a pity they didn't run with it, imagine where we'd be now!

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

They featured a lot in "Who Killed The Electric Car". No denying though they were very primitive by modern standards. The GM EV-1 was the only really stand-out car of that era.

zilog_jones · 06-09-2018 9:54am

unkel wrote: »

That's a lame excuse for Toyota not having any EVs now. In the next model RAV4 (about 2010?) didn't Toyota use the Tesla battery and powertrain? And after a few years they stopped making it, gambling everything on hydrogen / hybrid instead

I think it's a very valid excuse - Panasonic were unable to produce large Ni-MH batteries for Toyota around 2003 once Texaco/Chevron took control over the patents. Li-ion technology was not good enough at the time, so they had nowhere to go outside further developing hybrids (small Ni-MH batteries were allowed) and FCEVs (which they had been working on since the 90s, and were producing trial vehicles by 2002).

Sure, both generations of the RAV4 EV were compliance cars for CARB requirements, but Toyota had developed the first generation ('97-'03) in-house (with Panasonic providing batteries). There was a 9 year gap between that and the second version with the Tesla powertrain.

The 1st gen RAV4 EV had a longer range than the 24 kWh Leaf, so wasn't that primitive

unkel · 06-09-2018 10:11am

I know it wasn't primitive and the motors / battery they got from Tesla even less so!

My point it that clearly Toyota decided not to develop anything full EV in house, the even discontinued sourcing the Tesla EV bits. They gambled on the wrong hy-horses: hybrid and hydrogen :pac:

Now very few companies in 2015 were as clear as the likes of Musk were in 2005 that the future is EV and EV only. But not much later it should have been clear and Toyota should have had an EV by now. Really no excuses for it.

ofcork · 16-09-2018 1:59pm

Got an email from the dealer 18th October for pricing on the hybrids.

Shefwedfan · 16-09-2018 3:44pm

ofcork wrote: »

Got an email from the dealer 18th October for pricing on the hybrids.

They have been posting that on facebook for ages now.....

Orebro · 16-09-2018 3:47pm

ofcork wrote: »

Got an email from the dealer 18th October for pricing on the hybrids.

See if you can get a reduction for the non-self charging option?

The Black Oil · 16-09-2018 5:26pm

EV Man on the case. Daft stuff from Toyota.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnQIwhrHei8

Toyota hybrids

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