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Hybrid/EV recommendations?

  • 10-11-2018 7:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭


    I am considering upgrading to a hybrid (Or perhaps an EV, but leaning towards a petrol Hybrid) in the next 6 to 12 months. I need a bigger car than my current hatch....

    I am looking at IS300H (Exec Edition I think), but I am really open to alternatives.

    I have a short round trip to work....about 16KM. Sometimes in traffic, sometimes not in traffic, based on work start times (Am I mental to be looking at a 2.5 liter?). I also travel 600KM round trips around 6 times a year. The odd weekend trip too....

    I like the UK import route, obviously for the cost savings, but for the better specs/low mileage too. I’d probably import through a professional service/garage as opposed to going the D.I.Y route.

    Budget circa €20K.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Plug in hybrid would be ideal for you. If you bring one in from the UK you get a discount of €2,500 on the VRT (no discount on hybrids). You also qualify for cheaper tolls (no discount for hybrids). And you qualify for a €600 subsidy to install a home charger (obviously not available for hybrids as you can't even plug in these sometimes called "self charging" hybrids :p - Toyota has been found guilty of false advertising with this in several countries)

    All your commuting and short trips will be fully electric (and almost free of charge) and on your longer trips you don't have to worry about range or rely on public chargers (like in an EV)

    With a budget of about €20k, I would think of a BMW 330e, a Kia Optima PHEV or a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. If you want someone to source and bring in a PHEV / EV from the UK, I would contact Phil Fitzgerald of electricautos.ie. He has built up a formidable reputation here for doing just that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭CitizenFloor


    Hiya Unkel, thanks for replying....I meant to write that I live in an apartment at the moment, so that rules out plug-ins I think. Although there is a charging port at a petrol station not to far from where I live. This might be a really stupid question, but do people have plug-ins without having an outlet in their houses?

    .......Looking for a house too, so an alternative might actually be to hold out, and look at your suggestions after. Considering the housing market though, that could be a while....


  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭CitizenFloor


    maybe my understanding of plug-ins is a bit off....looking at them now. Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    No, you're right. If you don't have home or work charging, there is no point in a plug in hybrid. Unless of course you are likely to get home or work charging in the short term. There is no point plugging in a PHEV into a public charge point, and having to wait an hour for a saving of €0.50


  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭CitizenFloor


    unkel wrote:
    No, you're right. If you don't have home or work charging, there is no point in a plug in hybrid. Unless of course you are likely to get home or work charging in the short term. There is no point plugging in a PHEV into a public charge point, and having to wait an hour for a saving of €0.50


    I doubt it......I'd certainly consider those models above if I owned a house. But that could be a ways away yet.

    Am I correct in saying that a petrol hybrid HEV is probably the next best option?

    If that is the case, are there better options than the IS300H Exec Edition? I'm going to test drive one of those next Saturday.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭waynegalway


    I doubt it......I'd certainly consider those models above if I owned a house. But that could be a ways away yet.

    Am I correct in saying that a petrol hybrid HEV is probably the next best option?

    If that is the case, are there better options than the IS300H Exec Edition? I'm going to test drive one of those next Saturday.


    Have a careful look at the real world economy of hybrids. I know that every electric kilometer is better for the environment than an ICE car, but in reality the fuel economy of hybrids is a bit of a red herring, IMO.

    Many cheaper, pure petrol cars would be just as good/bad for the environment as a hybrid, but will cost you less to purchase. I’m just wary of hybrid in general, as I don’t see it being all it’s cracked up to be for most people. Toyota are doing a great job of advertising this tech, but just do your research and your sums before deciding.

    In May of this year, a complaint against the way Lexus advertises “self charging electrified” vehicles was upheld:

    https://www.reclamecode.nl/uitspraken/resultaten/?trefwoord=Lexus


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Have a careful look at the real world economy of hybrids. I know that every electric kilometer is better for the environment than an ICE car, but in reality the fuel economy of hybrids is a bit of a red herring, IMO.

    Many cheaper, pure petrol cars would be just as good/bad for the environment as a hybrid, but will cost you less to purchase. I’m just wary of hybrid in general, as I don’t see it being all it’s cracked up to be for most people. Toyota are doing a great job of advertising this tech, but just do your research and your sums before deciding.

    In May of this year, a complaint against the way Lexus advertises “self charging electrified” vehicles was upheld:

    https://www.reclamecode.nl/uitspraken/resultaten/?trefwoord=Lexus

    Have you driven a hybrid? or a self charging hybrid as they are more commonly known?


    I have, a few of them. They are miles ahead of a straight petrol. Especially the cars. I did take the Rav4 out for a test and it had 2 issues: It had too small of an engine and it was too big. It was hard on fuel. But they have a new version out now


    Look at the Prius, Prius+, Lexus cars. All are gret un hybrid. Its once you start going into the crossover etc it starts to fall, the new engine will fix that but it will be a long time before you see them in at low value....


    Some of the Lexus range are beautiful, really nice interior as well.....without a house self charginghybrid is best option and the Lexus is the best of those cars


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭waynegalway


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Have you driven a hybrid? or a self charging hybrid as they are more commonly known?

    Some of the Lexus range are beautiful, really nice interior as well.....without a house self charginghybrid is best option and the Lexus is the best of those cars

    Yep, I test drove a Prius. I know that’s not the same as owning one. It was lovely, not a bother to drive and very comfortable. Couldn’t fault it from a driving point of view.

    Same for Lexus, the quality is obvious. I’m not trying to take away from that.

    I’m just making the point from an environmental and economic viewpoint that hybrid is not all it’s cracked up to be. Comparing a hybrid Lexus SUV against a similar sized pure petrol SUV will show that the hybrid is slightly better, but it’s a pretty poor yardstick to begin with. I think the perceived benefits of hybrid in smaller cars is far less than the adverts would have you believe.

    You’re absolutely right about the home charger. I’m a firm believer that unless you can install a charge point at home, then an EV is just not really an option. The public network is too unreliable. So, on that basis a hybrid might seem like the best option, but I’m just suggesting that the OP does the sums on it. The environmental and cost savings from running a hybrid might not be any better than a regular car in reality, when you factor in the (most likely) higher sticker price.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    The IS300h (the Lexus the OP is looking at) is a saloon, not an SUV. In terms of fuel economy that particular model is not going to match equivalent diesels in that class, but still better than non-hybrid petrols. Also, it's not a diesel: Which is great in terms of refinement, will mean lower maintenance costs in the long run, and is better for local pollution.

    Personally I like the smoothness of the eCVT transmissions, and they take no time getting used to. I could never go back to a manual for a daily driver, it just seems so pointless.

    There are a few threads here about the IS with feedback from owners, probably worth checking out.

    The BMW 330e is also worth checking out too - even if you're not plugging it in it will still function as a hybrid, though I'm not sure how efficient it is in this mode compared to the IS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    The IS300h (the Lexus the OP is looking at) is a saloon, not an SUV. In terms of fuel economy that particular model is not going to match equivalent diesels in that class, but still better than non-hybrid petrols. Also, it's not a diesel: Which is great in terms of refinement, will mean lower maintenance costs in the long run, and is better for local pollution.

    Personally I like the smoothness of the eCVT transmissions, and they take no time getting used to. I could never go back to a manual for a daily driver, it just seems so pointless.

    There are a few threads here about the IS with feedback from owners, probably worth checking out.

    The BMW 330e is also worth checking out too - even if you're not plugging it in it will still function as a hybrid, though I'm not sure how efficient it is in this mode compared to the IS.


    Personally I would not buy a PHEV to use as a hybrid. What is the point in lugging around a large battery if you are never going to charge it? you are just lowering your MPG because of weight when really you bought the car to increase your MPG


    If no home charge then standard hybrid is best option. Merc have a C300(I think) which is a hybrid as well if you like a Merc. The C350(I think) is the PHEV version which I would love personally in a estate. :P


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Yep, I test drove a Prius. I know that’s not the same as owning one. It was lovely, not a bother to drive and very comfortable. Couldn’t fault it from a driving point of view.

    Same for Lexus, the quality is obvious. I’m not trying to take away from that.

    I’m just making the point from an environmental and economic viewpoint that hybrid is not all it’s cracked up to be. Comparing a hybrid Lexus SUV against a similar sized pure petrol SUV will show that the hybrid is slightly better, but it’s a pretty poor yardstick to begin with. I think the perceived benefits of hybrid in smaller cars is far less than the adverts would have you believe.

    You’re absolutely right about the home charger. I’m a firm believer that unless you can install a charge point at home, then an EV is just not really an option. The public network is too unreliable. So, on that basis a hybrid might seem like the best option, but I’m just suggesting that the OP does the sums on it. The environmental and cost savings from running a hybrid might not be any better than a regular car in reality, when you factor in the (most likely) higher sticker price.


    As per my post, once you move from a car to an SUV with hybrid it begins to fall flat on its face. The current hybrid is not good for SUV. The engine coming out next year will resolve that but the Rav4 is 39k or something starting


    The cars are great. My mate had a number of hybrids. All Lexus or Toyota. I am not sure of the exact models of Lexus but he got unbelieveable MPG. His wife has a Prius+ and she is down at 3-4ltr/100km with it. He was getting similar in his Lexus car.



    The OP is talking about cars so yes the hybrid is perfect for that


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭waynegalway


    Shefwedfan wrote: »


    The cars are great. My mate had a number of hybrids. All Lexus or Toyota. I am not sure of the exact models of Lexus but he got unbelieveable MPG. His wife has a Prius+ and she is down at 3-4ltr/100km with it. He was getting similar in his Lexus car.

    Fair enough. 4l/100km is very good. That would be about €600 per 10,000km at current petrol prices.

    The 1l Octavia that we have (automatic, 115bhp, lovely car to drive) is returning a shade over 5l/100km, let's say 5.5 to be safe. That costs about €820 for 10,000km at current petrol prices.

    So in this case the hybrid is about €220 cheaper per 10,000km.

    Not saying that an Octavia is the same as a Lexus in terms of branding and quality, but I'm just putting it out there as an example for the OP of the kind of money that a hybrid would save. Personally, doing about 20,000km a year, paying €440 more a year still works out better over the 5 years we plan to keep the car when you consider purchase price.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Fair enough. 4l/100km is very good. That would be about €600 per 10,000km at current petrol prices.

    The 1l Octavia that we have (automatic, 115bhp, lovely car to drive) is returning a shade over 5l/100km, let's say 5.5 to be safe. That costs about €820 for 10,000km at current petrol prices.

    So in this case the hybrid is about €220 cheaper per 10,000km.

    Not saying that an Octavia is the same as a Lexus in terms of branding and quality, but I'm just putting it out there as an example for the OP of the kind of money that a hybrid would save. Personally, doing about 20,000km a year, paying €440 more a year still works out better over the 5 years we plan to keep the car when you consider purchase price.


    I personally think the Skoda have done some sort of fiddling with there old ltr/100km. Every number I see on these forums seem to suggest the cars are extraordinarily frugal.






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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,030 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I personally think the Skoda have done some sort of fiddling with there old ltr/100km. Every number I see on these forums seem to suggest the cars are extraordinarily frugal.

    They are part of the VW group... they wouldnt fiddle with the numbers like that! :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭waynegalway


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I personally think the Skoda have done some sort of fiddling with there old ltr/100km. Every number I see on these forums seem to suggest the cars are extraordinarily frugal.






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    I'm going by the trip computer over a long period, which seems to tally with the amount of fuel we put in. 5.5l/100km is about what we're getting but others may vary.

    Anyhow, as I said, not trying to say the OP should get a Skoda, but fuel savings balanced against sticker price is something for them to consider, that's all. Horses for courses, and I'd say anyone would be happy to have a Lexus all other things being equal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭waynegalway


    KCross wrote: »
    They are part of the VW group... they wouldnt fiddle with the numbers like that! :P

    :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    KCross wrote: »
    They are part of the VW group... they wouldnt fiddle with the numbers like that! :P


    I know....it's not like they dont have a history :P:P:P:P


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,834 ✭✭✭circadian


    unkel wrote: »
    Plug in hybrid would be ideal for you. If you bring one in from the UK you get a discount of €2,500 on the VRT (no discount on hybrids). You also qualify for cheaper tolls (no discount for hybrids). And you qualify for a €600 subsidy to install a home charger (obviously not available for hybrids as you can't even plug in these sometimes called "self charging" hybrids :p - Toyota has been found guilty of false advertising with this in several countries)

    All your commuting and short trips will be fully electric (and almost free of charge) and on your longer trips you don't have to worry about range or rely on public chargers (like in an EV)

    With a budget of about €20k, I would think of a BMW 330e, a Kia Optima PHEV or a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. If you want someone to source and bring in a PHEV / EV from the UK, I would contact Phil Fitzgerald of electricautos.ie. He has built up a formidable reputation here for doing just that.

    I'd agree with getting a PHEV. I see you currently don't have a charge point available so I guess it really depends on how long you're willing to wait to move into a house/get a PHEV. The Lexus hybrids are nice, I drove a IS250h a while ago and it was a lovely car. I didn't drive it long enough to get an idea of what the real MPG was but all in all, a lovely car.

    I imported an Optima SW PHEV a while back, I love it. Would never buy a diesel again and it has a standard 6 speed auto box which is a bit unusual in a hybrid but works surprisingly well. Another thing to watch out for if you're waiting is the new Mazda Skyactiv-X engine. It's a pure petrol engine but if it's as good as they say it'll be then it will be hugely economical considering it's a "standard" combustion engine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭galvo_clare


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Have you driven a hybrid? or a self charging hybrid as they are more commonly known?

    They are not more commonly known as self charging. Toyota came up with that nonsense for marketing purposes and it’s got them into trouble in some countries. It means nothing and we shouldn’t be legitimising such meaningless jargon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    They are not more commonly known as self charging. Toyota came up with that nonsense for marketing purposes and it’s got them into trouble in some countries. It means nothing and we shouldn’t be legitimising such meaningless jargon.

    I know :P it's a joke....


    Someone did ask them why they call them self charging when it was a lit and they came back and said that "journalists" call them self charging so they can as well :P:P:P:eek::eek::eek:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Personally I would not buy a PHEV to use as a hybrid. What is the point in lugging around a large battery if you are never going to charge it? you are just lowering your MPG because of weight when really you bought the car to increase your MPG

    Well obviously it would make more sense if they could get a charger (or hope to get one within the lifetime of the car), but if they're looking for a premium saloon there's not an awful lot of choice if they're just sticking to petrol hybrids. The battery will still be partially used in hybrid driving. Weight isn't everything.

    In the case of the 330e, if you never plugged it in it would still be more efficient than a 320i (same engine - 36 vs. 32 MPG imp. in US EPA tests), but probably worse than the IS300h.


  • Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭galvo_clare


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I know :P it's a joke....


    Someone did ask them why they call them self charging when it was a lit and they came back and said that "journalists" call them self charging so they can as well :P:P:P:eek::eek::eek:

    I'm a journalist and I can assure you we never coined the term. The sooner it goes away the better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I'm a journalist and I can assure you we never coined the term. The sooner it goes away the better.


    You need to get onto Toyota so.....




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  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭CitizenFloor


    Thanks all - I wasn’t expecting all the debate, but it has given me a good deal to think about.

    So far, on balance, PHEV is out. I don’t have access to a charge point.

    In terms of HEV, I gather that there is not a lot of choice out there in the luxury saloon market, within my budget. Of the HEV that have been mentioned (Merc C300, BMW 330e, Lexus IS300H), I still come back to the IS300. That may all change after I test drive it, and get a proper handle on the overall importation costs etc.

    If it does change, I’ll probably look for a straight petrol.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Thanks all - I wasn’t expecting all the debate, but it has given me a good deal to think about.

    So far, on balance, PHEV is out. I don’t have access to a charge point.

    In terms of HEV, I gather that there is not a lot of choice out there in the luxury saloon market, within my budget. Of the HEV that have been mentioned (Merc C300, BMW 330e, Lexus IS300H), I still come back to the IS300. That may all change after I test drive it, and get a proper handle on the overall importation costs etc.

    If it does change, I’ll probably look for a straight petrol.


    More choice in the UK of course.....


    Ireland doesn't have a great choice of petrol or hybrid compared to UK because of the Irish peoples love of daysel....


    Might be worth looking at some of the option over their


  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭CitizenFloor


    Drove a 152 Exec IS300H today. I think I need to drive it again because I didn't have a lot of time. I was rushing, and it was the first automatic I have driven so and it took a bit of getting use to.

    Initial thoughts. It was really nice to drive. Cockpit was really comfortable if a little snug. Nice handling. Pretty low spec I think, because....Ireland.

    I wasn't blown away by the acceleration. I know its not know as a fast car, but I was expecting it to have a little more poke. Did something change between 2015/2016? Was there a new model or something? Maybe I was driving the older version?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Drove a 152 Exec IS300H today. I think I need to drive it again because I didn't have a lot of time. I was rushing, and it was the first automatic I have driven so and it took a bit of getting use to.

    Initial thoughts. It was really nice to drive. Cockpit was really comfortable if a little snug. Nice handling. Pretty low spec I think, because....Ireland.

    I wasn't blown away by the acceleration. I know its not know as a fast car, but I was expecting it to have a little more poke. Did something change between 2015/2016? Was there a new model or something? Maybe I was driving the older version?


    As you haven't driven a automatic before you might get a bit of a hop with the CVT gearbox the Lexus uses. I would suggest taking it for a longer spin.



    Also do a bit of research on how the CVT works....it doesn't work the same as a normal automatic gear box.


  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭CitizenFloor


    Will do. Thanks for the advice


  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭CitizenFloor


    I have a better understanding of CVT now and I am ready for another test drive! It might take a bit of getting use to, but I'm keeping an open mind because I liked everything else about the car.

    I have been browsing through Motors/Auto-trader UK, and I'm going insane trying to figure out the differences between the IS300H models (Advance, Executive Edition, F-Sport, Sport, Luxury, Premium).
    I know the F-Sport has a more sporty suspension etc., but I am not really interested in that reducing ride quality.
    I am more interested in the other bells and whistles. I do like the Premium Sat Nav/Rear Facing Parking Camera/Heated & Ventilated seats and Adaptive Cruise Control for instance.

    Do different specs come with specific models, or are the add-ons configured into any of the models by the original buyer?
    In other words, do I get to pick and choose to an extent on auto trader, or do I have to choose a certain set of add-ons, based on the model?
    ....Is there an easy way to find out the main differences?

    Also, are there any must have add ons that I am missing?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I have a better understanding of CVT now and I am ready for another test drive! It might take a bit of getting use to, but I'm keeping an open mind because I liked everything else about the car.

    I have been browsing through Motors/Auto-trader UK, and I'm going insane trying to figure out the differences between the IS300H models (Advance, Executive Edition, F-Sport, Sport, Luxury, Premium).
    I know the F-Sport has a more sporty suspension etc., but I am not really interested in that reducing ride quality.
    I am more interested in the other bells and whistles. I do like the Premium Sat Nav/Rear Facing Parking Camera/Heated & Ventilated seats and Adaptive Cruise Control for instance.

    Do different specs come with specific models, or are the add-ons configured into any of the models by the original buyer?
    In other words, do I get to pick and choose to an extent on auto trader, or do I have to choose a certain set of add-ons, based on the model?
    ....Is there an easy way to find out the main differences?

    Also, are there any must have add ons that I am missing?


    No idea but best website to tell you
    https://www.parkers.co.uk/

    Dont worry about the CVT, some people go on about it. I have had loads of automatics....I sat into a Rav4 and drove it for a week without any issues.


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