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VW Neo (eGolf replacement)

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13567…46

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    #62
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    KCross wrote: »
    So you believe that the entry level Neo (40kWh+) will be cheaper than an entry level 40kWh Leaf(€28k)?!!!

    That would be a real game changer.


    I could see this happening, it's not such much Nissan that have to change, as VW release a truely entry level vehicle.


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    #63
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    I could see this happening, it's not such much Nissan that have to change, as VW release a truely entry level vehicle.

    If it happens and they deliver in numbers it will be more disruptive than anything gone before as the entire market will have to readjust, not just Nissan.

    I just dont think VW have it in them to sell a car significantly below the current market price. The Kona and Niro have set the bar. Why would VW significantly undercut everyone? Its just not in their nature.

    I'm probably just too cynical about VAG and I've owned alot of them!


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    #64
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    We are all guessing at the moment. No real information on battery size and real cost into hand have been released. What has been released is exciting I think everyone would admit?

    I don't see either the Kona or the Niro as a good example. Hyundai/Kia have said before they even released the product it would be limited supply. If you don't plan on high volume then you will never drive down the cost of the individual car, use the eGolf as an example if you want.

    VW have spent millions already on ID, to design a new format for electric cars, only for electric cars. The ID will never have a combustion engine version. They have to make it work or potentially they are in big trouble in the future.

    If they are rolling out 200-300k cars in 2020 all based on the same format then they can drive significant cost reductions.

    So do I see the Neo been cheaper than entry Leaf, yes potentially....if not the VW version then maybe the Seat/Skoda version


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    #65
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    I hope you’re right.


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    #66
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    The Niro/Kona (and Ioniq) are all comparably high spec cars.

    VW have spent alot on the MEB platform and will want to maximise the return on it.


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    #67
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    liamog wrote: »
    The Niro/Kona (and Ioniq) are all comparably high spec cars.

    VW have spent alot on the MEB platform and will want to maximise the return on it.


    High spec if you buy in UK. Medium to low spec if purchased in Ireland :p



    The eGolf in Ireland came with a reasonable spec on the baseline. I do expect the base Neo to have lots of option packs. Same as the base combustion version.



    According to some reports long term the Neo will be autonomous and have the ability to update via internet but all of these features will be extra I would guess as well


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    #68
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    High spec if you buy in UK. Medium to low spec if purchased in Ireland :p


    Comparable to their ICE equivalents, the base ICE Kona is very entry level :)


    Did you here about the augmented reality display on the I.D. I presume this is just a fancy word for HUD.


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    #69
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    liamog wrote: »
    Comparable to their ICE equivalents, the base ICE Kona is very entry level :)


    Did you here about the augmented reality display on the I.D. I presume this is just a fancy word for HUD.


    Yes I heard about it and yes it is the HUD :p:p:p:p


    They moved to digital display on the eGolf v2 and I think it will end up been a newer version of this.



    So on my eGolf it comes up on display pointing in direction to turn so you dont need to look at Satnav, just at speedo. From the pictures I have seen they will display that on the HUD so you keep eyes on road....
    I am probably playing it down a bit and it maybe can do some other fancy stuff but we will wait and see


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    #70
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Some more information here

    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/97043/volkswagen-id-neo-latest-details-on-vws-2019-electric-hatch

    48kWh seems to the entry model.

    Christian Senger, VW’s Head of Product Line for E-Mobility, told Auto Express, “We will have three different ranges of I.D. hatchback, to allow for people with different budgets. The entry-level car will have a WLTP range of 330km (205 miles), and it will also have more limited performance. If people want a faster car then I don’t want them coming back after three months telling me that it’s fast but that the range is too short. So if you want a fast car, you’ll need a bigger battery - simple.”


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    #71
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Some more information here

    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/97043/volkswagen-id-neo-latest-details-on-vws-2019-electric-hatch

    48kWh seems to the entry model.

    Christian Senger, VW’s Head of Product Line for E-Mobility, told Auto Express, “We will have three different ranges of I.D. hatchback, to allow for people with different budgets. The entry-level car will have a WLTP range of 330km (205 miles), and it will also have more limited performance. If people want a faster car then I don’t want them coming back after three months telling me that it’s fast but that the range is too short. So if you want a fast car, you’ll need a bigger battery - simple.”

    That has the exact same quotes as my post last week which is what I based my figures on...
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108190449&postcount=44

    What they have added in your article is that they expect it to be £27500 after grant in the UK... that would suggest an Irish price of around what I said... €32k.... certainly nowhere near €25k.


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    #72
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,361 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I can't see any e-golf segment car with a VW badge selling for 25k here
    VW is one segment below premium, in terms of pricing, and 25k is Pulsar/Leaf money as mentioned.


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    #73
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,764 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    KCross wrote: »
    So you believe that the entry level Neo (40kWh+) will be cheaper than an entry level 40kWh Leaf(€28k)?!!!

    That would be a real game changer.

    The Neo is still years away. Batteries are getting cheaper all the time. I can see one retailing in Ireland for around the same price as a Leaf is now.

    That would be based on the current generous subsidies of €5k cash and up to €5k off the VRT bill though, which I don't think we can expect to be fully there by then. It will be cheaper to produce an EV than a comparable ICE in a few years time. These subsidies ain't gonna last forever.


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    #74
    eagerv
    Registered Users Posts: 4,397 ✭✭✭eagerv


    The price mentioned of £27500 is about £2k less than the Premium Kona 64 in UK.


    So based on the price of the Kona here, I guess a starting price of about €35k in Ireland.


  • Options
    #75
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    The Neo is still years away.

    Pre-orders in Q4 2019 for 2020 deliveries is what VW are saying, so thats not years away at all.

    unkel wrote: »
    Batteries are getting cheaper all the time. I can see one retailing in Ireland for around the same price as a Leaf is now.

    Again, I hope ye are right. I just cant see it based on reduced battery prices. We are still at the early stages of EV adoption, VW will not want or need to come in the cheapest. Thats for Renault and Nissan.

    unkel wrote: »
    That would be based on the current generous subsidies of €5k cash and up to €5k off the VRT bill though, which I don't think we can expect to be fully there by then. It will be cheaper to produce an EV than a comparable ICE in a few years time. These subsidies ain't gonna last forever.

    The minister already intimated a year ago, on Primetime I think it was, that price parity was expected around 2022. That to me was a signal that that is when they expect the grants are going to be phased out. That will drive prices back up and make s/h values hold strong. Its a guessing game of course, alot could happen in the meantime... Brexit and a new Irish government to name but two.


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    #76
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    unkel wrote: »
    The Neo is still years away. Batteries are getting cheaper all the time. I can see one retailing in Ireland for around the same price as a Leaf is now.

    That would be based on the current generous subsidies of €5k cash and up to €5k off the VRT bill though, which I don't think we can expect to be fully there by then. It will be cheaper to produce an EV than a comparable ICE in a few years time. These subsidies ain't gonna last forever.


    I can't see grants been phased out anytime soon.....


    With the rate of people buying electric cars it is hardly putting a big hole in budget.....

    Next year for delivery, first time I seen that it might not be called Neo.....

    VW said 1 years ago Neo would be 2019/2020. They have not changed and with the amount of press they are doing at the moment it certainly suggests they are on course to release.....


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    #77
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,361 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I can't see grants been phased out anytime soon.....


    With the rate of people buying electric cars it is hardly putting a big hole in budget.....
    Yeah the grant is here to stay for the short to medium term IMO.
    They will probably phase it out for non BEV first.


  • Options
    #78
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Dont forget the Crozz, there is an AWD version with 2 motors in it....it will be in US 2020 but in Europe probably 2021,.....it could be worth waiting for


  • Options
    #79
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,361 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    What I'm actually interested in is the camper van version.
    The retro cool factor of it would be the only thing that would persuade me to buy a VW!


  • Options
    #80
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    ELM327 wrote: »
    What I'm actually interested in is the camper van version.
    The retro cool factor of it would be the only thing that would persuade me to buy a VW!


    That will be 2022 and by the looks of it they will focus in US first....so I would guess 2023 for Europe....

    I think everyone wants one of them.....Fully Charged or one of those UK review crowds done a test drive in one a while back......very cool


  • Options
    #81
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I have to say, reading the last few pages it is really interesting to see peoples opinions if this will be closer to 25k or 35k and their is a lot of logic on both sides.

    On the one hand, if this Neo turns out to be just another limited production run, unprofitable, EV tester, like the eGolf, then yes, it is more likely to be closer to 35k. However on the other hand if it is a true, high production run ,mainstream car, then I suspect it won't be far off 25k.

    Comparing the price to Niro/Kona isn't great, because they aren't true ground up EV's, they are limited production run cars with a battery thrown in. Leaf is a bit better, but it still relys heavily on Nissans existing platform. Neo/ID on the other hand are a complete clean sheet EV only design and should benefit in reducing costs from that.

    Also I think Nissan/Kia/Hyundai are milking the high demand and low supply/competition for EV's. People are just desperate to get any good range, affordable EV. If you step back, they are really quite overpriced for the type of cars they are. That won't continue when really high production competition enters the market.

    I can easily see a 48kwh Neo coming at 28k, the same price as the Leaf 40 in a years time. Maybe even 25k. And yes that will force Nissan to drop the Leaf 40 to 23k or so and introduce a Leaf 60 around 28 to 30k mark I suspect.

    As for the idea that VW are a premium brand and should be more then Nissan. I think that is more in peoples heads then in reality. Looking at the entry price of the Golf 21k, Pulsar 21k, Polo 16,800, Micra 16,650.

    Nothing really premium about that and very little price difference there. I know you can add loads of extras to VW, GTI, etc. and really push the price up, but they really are just a mid market brand, not super different from Nissan.

    Thing is it really feels like VW needs to enter the EV market in a big way, with a very high production, high seller, mainstream, affordable car. Diesel sales have tanked and will likely fall further as cities ban them. Their brand is now very damaged and tarnished and they don't really have much advantage in petrols, so I think they will now have to really force a big transition to EV's if they want to remain relevant, to really get in front of this new market and dominate it in the mid market. Their future depends on it and it sort of looks like they are positioning the Neo as the Golf of the EV era.

    A 25k Neo would still be a 4k premium over an entry level Golf. I'd guess it might come in at 28k, same as leaf and then gradually drop to 25k.


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    #82
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Sit into a Leaf and then sit into a eGolf.....

    The premium brand in VW is Porsche/Audi but the VW is a step up from the Nissan...

    Even test drive a Qashqai and then a Tiguan and you notice the difference


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    #83
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Sit into a Leaf and then sit into a eGolf.....

    The premium brand in VW is Porsche/Audi but the VW is a step up from the Nissan...

    Even test drive a Qashqai and then a Tiguan and you notice the difference

    But they aren't really priced as a step up and they are as ugly as hell :p

    I was in a Tiguan recently, really nothing special. They just another mid-market brand.


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    #84
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Also while maybe they feel a little better built, VW reliability actually isn't too great:

    https://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

    VW 25th, Nissan 10th.


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    #85
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    bk wrote: »
    But they aren't really priced as a step up and they are as ugly as hell :p

    I was in a Tiguan recently, really nothing special. They just another mid-market brand.


    Depends on taste, some people like the Leaf 1 :eek::eek::eek::eek:


    The drive is a lot better. I test drove a Qashqai and then a Tiguan, really wanted the Tiguan but the deal on the Qashqai just made serious sense and I went with it, I regretted it for 4 years:P


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    #86
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    And a lot of people made the same choice, given that the Qashqai is the top selling car of 2018 so far.

    Nissan, Toyota, VW, Ford, Hyundai, they are all the mid market. Sure there can be differences between model to model, a little here, little there. VW, maybe a bit better interior, but more likely to break down due to crappy Diesel.

    What VW does best is marketing, convincing people they are a step up, when they are just another mid-market car, not so different.

    It is very noticeable that Nissan, Hyundai, Kia are all on the up in best selling ranks while VW are falling. That is why they need to get out in front of EV's and beat those companies to EV mass production or they will really be left behind.


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    #87
    eagerv
    Registered Users Posts: 4,397 ✭✭✭eagerv


    I cannot see VW, in the short term, undercutting the market.


    Already mentioned in the UK sites that they expect the Neo to start there at about £27500. That's about 2 grand less than their mid range Kona (Probably closest spec to our Kona). So about €35 here for Neo.


    I cannot see prices dropping anytime soon, but hope I'm wrong..


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    #88
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    The prices wont drop until the market is flooded with EV's... simple supply and demand.
    Thats not going to happen the day that the Neo is released(2020 timeframe). They will price it for the market at that time. At this lower end of the market, they will only be competing with the Leaf unless the Ioniq starts to appear in numbers.

    Would you buy a Leaf at €28k(36kWh usable battery) or a Neo at €32k (looks like ~45kWh usable)?... I think alot of people would go for the Neo if the spec, range, charge speed etc is better than the Leaf.... which it will be based on what VW have already "leaked".

    I just dont think VW will have any incentive to reduce their margin when there is very little competition. Maximum profit will be the order of the day and as long as they can sell all their production (which they will) they will price accordingly.... imo, anyone expecting a Neo for €25k is in for major disappointment, but of course we all want to see it and I'll be in the queue with the rest of ye if it does happen! :)


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    #89
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    eagerv wrote: »
    Already mentioned in the UK sites that they expect the Neo to start there at about £27500. That's about 2 grand less than their mid range Kona (Probably closest spec to our Kona). So about €35 here for Neo.

    I can't see anyone paying 35k for a 48kwh hatchback, when you can get a 64kwh SUV for just 2k more! That would just be silly.

    The VW brand really isn't worth that much more, specially to EV fans who don't like VW and their Dieselgate. 30k I can maybe see, but not much more.
    KCross wrote: »
    Would you buy a Leaf at €28k(36kWh usable battery) or a Neo at €32k (looks like ~45kWh usable)?... I think alot of people would go for the Neo if the spec, range, charge speed etc is better than the Leaf.... which it will be based on what VW have already "leaked".

    I really don't expect the leaf 40 to still be 28k two years from now. The leaf use to come in two models, 24kWh for around 23k and 30kWh for around 28k.

    We now get the Leaf 40 for 28k, but I suspect with the introduction of a Leaf 60 in the next two years, we will see the Leaf 40 drop to around 23k and a Leaf 60 to come in around 28 to 30k.

    How many people do you think would buy a 48kwh Neo for 35k, if there is a Leaf 60 for 30k?

    A Neo 48Kwh for 25k would sit nicely between a Leaf 40 for 23k and a Leaf 60 for 28 to 30k in two years time.

    Maybe 30k initially at a stretch, but certainly not 35k IMO.


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    #90
    eagerv
    Registered Users Posts: 4,397 ✭✭✭eagerv


    bk wrote: »
    I can't see anyone paying 35k for a 48kwh hatchback, when you can get a 64kwh SUV for just 2k more! That would just be silly.

    The VW brand really isn't worth that much more, specially to EV fans who don't like VW and their Dieselgate. 30k I can maybe see, but not much more.



    I really don't expect the leaf 40 to still be 28k two years from now. The leaf use to come in two models, 24kWh for around 23k and 30kWh for around 28k.

    We now get the Leaf 40 for 28k, but I suspect with the introduction of a Leaf 60 in the next two years, we will see the Leaf 40 drop to around 23k and a Leaf 60 to come in around 28 to 30k.

    How many people do you think would buy a 48kwh Neo for 35k, if there is a Leaf 60 for 30k?

    A Neo 48Kwh for 25k would sit nicely between a Leaf 40 for 23k and a Leaf 60 for 28 to 30k in two years time.

    Maybe 30k initially at a stretch, but certainly not 35k IMO.


    Can't see a well equipped Neo 48kWh being priced at €30k when it looks as though a Kona 40kWh would be about €33k here, based on prices elsewhere.


    Surely the Neo is Golf sized(But roomier?) which I am sure would not be cheaper than a Kona?


    Interesting times ahead...


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    #91
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    eagerv wrote: »
    Surely the Neo is Golf sized(But roomier?) which I am sure would not be cheaper than a Kona?

    I don't see why, SUV's are now much more popular then hatchbacks and command a premium.

    It will need to compete with where the Leaf 40 and Leaf 60 are in two years time. They are the equivalent hatchbacks, less so an SUV.


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