VW Neo (eGolf replacement)

eagerv · 02-10-2018 8:55pm

bk wrote: »

I don't see why, SUV's are now much more popular then hatchbacks and command a premium.

Yes generally, but the Kona is I believe from a class below the Golf, which I presume the Neo is at.

bk · 02-10-2018 9:02pm

eagerv wrote: »

Yes generally, but the Kona is I believe from a class below the Golf, which I presume the Neo is at.

It is, but again, an SUV. And what everyone seems to be forgetting, VW need to introduce this into the market that will be here in two years time, not today.

Nissan and Hyundai clearly aren't just going to leave VW come in and not react.

In the next two years, we are likely to see a Leaf 60, with a likely drop in price in the leaf 40. I suspect a Neo 48 will need to come in between those.

Also don't forget the Ioniq, 28kwh for 29k, Hyundai will need to upgrade that. Maybe a 40kWh for 29k to 30k. And it is a bigger car then a Neo/Golf class.

The market will expand and a lot more competition.

eagerv · 02-10-2018 9:08pm

bk wrote: »

It is, but again, an SUV. And what everyone seems to be forgetting, VW need to introduce this into the market that will be here in two years time, not today.

Nissan and Hyundai clearly aren't just going to leave VW come in and not react.

In the next two years, we are likely to see a Leaf 60, with a likely drop in price in the leaf 40. I suspect a Neo 48 will need to come in between those.

Also don't forget the Ioniq, 28kwh for 29k, Hyundai will need to upgrade that. Maybe a 40kWh for 29k to 30k. And it is a bigger car then a Neo/Golf class.

The market will expand and a lot more competition.

I hope you are right, it's just I cannot see Neo coming to market below what's available in just over a year.

unkel · 02-10-2018 9:10pm

bk wrote: »

As for the idea that VW are a premium brand and should be more then Nissan. I think that is more in peoples heads then in reality. Looking at the entry price of the Golf 21k, Pulsar 21k

Sit in an eGolf and drive it. It's a far better drive and has a more premium feel to it than the likes of Leaf, Ioniq or Kona

Agree strongly with the rest of your post. My guess is for the Neo to start of at about €28k Irish list price (provided still zero VRT and €5k subsidy)

Shefwedfan · 02-10-2018 9:44pm

bk wrote: »

It is, but again, an SUV. And what everyone seems to be forgetting, VW need to introduce this into the market that will be here in two years time, not today.

Nissan and Hyundai clearly aren't just going to leave VW come in and not react.

In the next two years, we are likely to see a Leaf 60, with a likely drop in price in the leaf 40. I suspect a Neo 48 will need to come in between those.

Also don't forget the Ioniq, 28kwh for 29k, Hyundai will need to upgrade that. Maybe a 40kWh for 29k to 30k. And it is a bigger car then a Neo/Golf class.

The market will expand and a lot more competition.

Car are selling in Europe. Just as strongly as Crossovers. Hence why VW are launching the Neo in Europe and the Crozz in the US. The Crozz will come to Europe after the initial US launch but the Americans dont buy cars anymore so they will never get the Neo.

Nissan and Hyundai have known for a long time that VW are investing billions into electric cars. What have they done? neither of them have even tried to rival VW's purchase of batteries. With the quantities VW are buying they will bet getting them a lot cheaper than either Nissan or Hyundai.

If Hyundai was serious they would have bought big, they have a 12 month jump on VW but like other electric cars they have launched they can't supply. Pointless have good electric cars if nobody can buy.

bk · 02-10-2018 9:53pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nissan and Hyundai have known for a long time that VW are investing billions into electric cars. What have they done? neither of them have even tried to rival VW's purchase of batteries. With the quantities VW are buying they will bet getting them a lot cheaper than either Nissan or Hyundai.

Well what they have done is actually introduced decent EV's, while VW still plays around with prototypes and lots of promises of future great things with nothing really to show yet.

We have heard a lot of talk from VW, but little real action.

Also if they are getting the batteries for so much less, then why wouldn't they be undercutting Nissan.

Shefwedfan · 02-10-2018 9:57pm

bk wrote: »

I don't see why, SUV's are now much more popular then hatchbacks and command a premium.

It will need to compete with where the Leaf 40 and Leaf 60 are in two years time. They are the equivalent hatchbacks, less so an SUV.

Please don’t call them SUVs they are not and never where....Crossover and compact Crossover are the majority of the vehicles you see....Q7 or Land Rover is a SUV

As I mentioned the car market is strong in Europe. Maybe in Ireland the crossover market is strong but we are tiny, UK, Germany, France, Italy are all the markets in Europe, a large majority of the customers in Ireland are buying second hand diesels from the uk.....

KCross · 02-10-2018 10:48pm

bk wrote: »

I really don't expect the leaf 40 to still be 28k two years from now. The leaf use to come in two models, 24kWh for around 23k and 30kWh for around 28k.

I think your figures are wrong there. There was a €3k premium for the 30kWh over the 24kWh and then when they introduced the 40kWh they got rid of the 24/30 models and increased the price above the old price. They didnt reduce it.

However, I'd agree the 2018 Leaf will drop in price once competition arrives. They have a free reign now and have priced high accordingly. It will take a few years before they have any decent competition though that is hitting their bottom line.

bk wrote: »

We now get the Leaf 40 for 28k, but I suspect with the introduction of a Leaf 60 in the next two years, we will see the Leaf 40 drop to around 23k and a Leaf 60 to come in around 28 to 30k.

Wishful thinking, imo. As I said above, when they introduced the 40kWh they didnt bring it in at the same price as the 30kWh. They increased the price. They might tweak the 40kWh down a bit but to think they will drop €5k off it in 2yrs time is wishful thinking. The existing owners would go ballistic. Maybe €2k, €3k at a stretch. Cant see a €5k drop.

You also have a very big assumption built in there that Nissan can simply produce the same car with a much larger battery for the same money. They are now on the open market for batteries since they sold their battery manufacturing arm, so will be at the mercy of the world market like everyone else.

Bear in mind that the cost of batteries has already dropped in price by an order of magnitude in the last 8 years, that reduction eventually stabilises and you no longer get significant reductions particularly in a rising market where raw material prices are going through the roof. As more manufacturers join the party it will be harder, not easier, to get cheaper more dense battery packs.

bk wrote: »

How many people do you think would buy a 48kwh Neo for 35k, if there is a Leaf 60 for 30k?

None, but I dont think the Neo will be €35k.... im thinking €32k for entry model (we arent really that far apart in our prices and its all guesswork anyway!)

A 60kWh Leaf in 2020 will be about the same price.... i.e. €4k+ premium over the 40kWh version like they did for the 24/30 models.

bk wrote: »

A Neo 48Kwh for 25k would sit nicely between a Leaf 40 for 23k and a Leaf 60 for 28 to 30k in two years time.

Maybe 30k initially at a stretch, but certainly not 35k IMO.

You are also missing the way manufacturers quote kWh's.... the 40kWh Leaf is really 36kWh (usable). A 45kWh Neo, based on the figures they have given so far, suggests it is 45kWh usable so a 45kWh Neo is significantly better than a 36kWh Leaf for range. The gap is huge actually (~150km) so for that alone it will be priced a good bit higher than a "40kWh" Leaf.

Do you think a 45kWh Neo would only command a €2k premium over a 36kWh Leaf... not a chance!

Ultimately ask yourself this.... what is in it for VW to undercut their competitors when they have a better product (range and charging speed primarily)?

And what competitors will they have in 2020-2022.... maybe 40kWh Ioniq, a 60kWh Leaf.... what else? The rest are premium brands at €40k+. Thats not much competition.

VW will have zero problem selling 100k Neo's per year. Why would they sell it for €25k if they can get €32k for it? I could maybe see €30k, but zero chance of €25k.

Shefwedfan · 02-10-2018 11:04pm

I won’t bother quoting everything but I would suspect they will have a low priced Neo, Small battery, restricted motor, no app etc etc....so when you try to do anything you have to pay, remember the plan is all software features can be added by download if you pay of course

So will anyone buy the 25k model, well irish people will because it’s a new number plate, the rest of Europe will buy the 30k one with xyz features

KCross · 02-10-2018 11:26pm

I got the WLTP figures wrong there....

Neo, according to VW, will have a WLTP for entry model of 330km.
Leaf 40kWh is at 285km, I believe, and is 36kWh usable.

So, maybe Neo entry level will be ~40kWh usable (instead of 45kWh) assuming they are more efficient than Nissan.

€30k seems more reasonable then. Still cant see €25k though.

unkel · 02-10-2018 11:26pm

KCross wrote: »

a 45kWh Neo is significantly better than a 36kWh Leaf for range. The gap is huge actually (~150km)

Probably because the Neo won't be anywhere near as inefficient as the Leaf :pac:

eagerv · 03-10-2018 12:06am

Excuse my ramblings, I'm fairly new in this parish.:)

It's just I cannot see VW undercutting the market in a years time.

They say in the UK Press that the basic Neo 48kWh will be available to pre order in the final quarter of 2019 for delivery in early 2020. For about the same price as a well specced Diesel Golf. That can mean anything. IIRC I priced a Golf Highline in mid 2017 with some desirable, to me, extras. I think the price was about €35k. (Didn't buy it!)

What competing EV's will be available this time next year?
Probably similar to now with the addition of Niro.

Leaf 40 mid spec €30k.
Kona 64 "Irish spec" €37k
Niro 64 "Irish spec" €40k. (My guess for low spec version)

So where does that position the Neo at launch? I reckon a bit higher than others are forecasting. But hopefully that will change in the coming years.

Shefwedfan · 03-10-2018 8:25am

Ok a few things to note

VW have lost billions due to dieselgate
They had invested billions in diesel engines and now they are nearly obsolete, if you live in any country apart Ireland
They have invest billions in the ID design and range

VW cannot let it fail. You don't buy the value of Tesla in batteries and then overprice the car. That would be stupid. Why both going to all the hassle....they have said numerous times they will bring the electric car to the masses. Mentioned the ID Neo will be the VW Golf of the future.

You cannot base anything on the cars that have been released so far. Hyundai and Kia haven't really invested in the raw components because they are unsure of what direction to go. Look at line up diesel/petrol/hybrid/phev, electric and hydrogen??

Nissan had the market and seem to be falling over themselves to hand it over to someone else

VW after Neo will have: VW "old" range of mild hybrid diesel, hybrid petrol and VW ID Electric. No inbetween, no messing. A full range of electric cars with plants WW to manufacturer.

Lets say they release at 32k and Leaf drops to 28k, they sell no ID....at that stage to be honest you could seel the start of the end for VW....this has to make money and the best way is a cheap electric car they can sell millions of them....its not like VW dont know how to do that(Beetle )

Shefwedfan · 03-10-2018 9:07am

bk wrote: »

Well what they have done is actually introduced decent EV's, while VW still plays around with prototypes and lots of promises of future great things with nothing really to show yet.

We have heard a lot of talk from VW, but little real action.

Also if they are getting the batteries for so much less, then why wouldn't they be undercutting Nissan.

Have they? ever single version of the Leaf has had a major fault. Along with issues around battery degradation

Hyundai you can try and buy one but good luck to that. No stock. Even the Kona has no stock and no indication if they will ramp up production

Kia is the same.

Based on what I can see VW have taken the German approach, they might not be first to market but when they release it will be a good car which they can produce in large quantities and meet customer requirements. Every other manufacturer seems to have done with the half assed approach but people seem to applaud half measures.....I have no idea why

unkel · 03-10-2018 9:08am

Yeah I broadly agree. It is almost impossible to bring VW down. They are the biggest car maker in the world. Not even the #dieselgate damage of many billions seems to have even made them stumble. Unlike the other big car maker, Toyota, VW do know where it is headed and they have finally (just in time it seems) directed their attention and their funds towards it.

Shefwedfan · 03-10-2018 9:36am

unkel wrote: »

Yeah I broadly agree. It is almost impossible to bring VW down. They are the biggest car maker in the world. Not even the #dieselgate damage of many billions seems to have even made them stumble. Unlike the other big car maker, Toyota, VW do know where it is headed and they have finally (just in time it seems) directed their attention and their funds towards it.

I think they have one of the clearest product lines

VW old: Diesel/Hybrid/PHEV
VW New: ID range

Then you have
Toyota: Hybrid but then you have maybe PHEV, Hydrogen is been pushed, talk of electric maybe

Nissan: Diesel/Petrol and electric but no real plans, no electric Qashqai anytime soon, no range of electric. At this stage they should have a full line of electric

Volvo: Mostly seem to be heading the PHEV direction

Ford: all over the place, no idea, some electric but only in US....PHEV SMAX, will it ever appear? the hybrid Mondeo is going to have high tax due to poor performance

Hyundai/Kia...see above, they have fingers in everything, also a mild hybrid diesel to throw into the mix :P plus no realy huge investment in electric yet

bk · 03-10-2018 9:48am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I won’t bother quoting everything but I would suspect they will have a low priced Neo, Small battery, restricted motor, no app etc etc....so when you try to do anything you have to pay, remember the plan is all software features can be added by download if you pay of course

Oh, I agree completely. They'll have a very wide range of cars, with lots of upgrades, that is the VW way. Just like you have a 21k Golf to a 50k Golf R, I'm certain you will have a range of cars from a very low spec, entry level Neo, up to a Neo GTE. At the high end probably have 60kWh battery, more powerful motor, maybe even dual motors and AWD. Of course expect to pay way over 40k for that.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So will anyone buy the 25k model, well irish people will because it’s a new number plate, the rest of Europe will buy the 30k one with xyz features

Which would be fair enough if the entry level model has 330km WLTP range. Given the small island we live on, more then enough range for most peoples trips.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

VW have lost billions due to dieselgate
They had invested billions in diesel engines and now they are nearly obsolete, if you live in any country apart Ireland
They have invest billions in the ID design and range

VW cannot let it fail. You don't buy the value of Tesla in batteries and then overprice the car. That would be stupid. Why both going to all the hassle....they have said numerous times they will bring the electric car to the masses. Mentioned the ID Neo will be the VW Golf of the future.

Exactly, given the mess that Diesel is, they need to make the transition in a big way. They need to dominate this new EV market and grow it beyond just EV fans. Another expensive low sales numbers GTE isn't going to cut it. A neo GTE would of course be an exciting car and I'm sure they will do that to. But they will really need to go head to head with the Leaf at the entry level if they really want to make a difference with this car.

eagerv · 03-10-2018 9:53am

All very interesting and agree with much said.

What I see is that VW appear to be the first real competition coming in fairly large numbers to the market. Or perhaps they will tread gently initially as the Koreans are doing, or delay launch till later in 2020 when there is perhaps a better picture of what's going on.

Interesting times.

Shefwedfan · 03-10-2018 9:54am

bk wrote: »

Exactly, given the mess that Diesel is, they need to make the transition in a big way. They need to dominate this new EV market and grow it beyond just EV fans. Another expensive low sales numbers GTE isn't going to cut it. A neo GTE would of course be an exciting car and I'm sure they will do that to. But they will really need to go head to head with the Leaf at the entry level if they really want to make a difference with this car.

Neo will never have combustion engine in it. It was developed only for electric.

While combustion engines are still around you will have Golf around with GTE options. Hence why eGolf got cancelled but the next Golf will have a GTE version

bk · 03-10-2018 10:01am

unkel wrote: »

Yeah I broadly agree. It is almost impossible to bring VW down. They are the biggest car maker in the world. Not even the #dieselgate damage of many billions seems to have even made them stumble. Unlike the other big car maker, Toyota, VW do know where it is headed and they have finally (just in time it seems) directed their attention and their funds towards it.

Of course, no one is saying they are going to die, but there certainly suffering due to Diesel gate and a lot of their good marketing shine as worn off as a result.

They originally had a strategy of growing greatly in the US and dominating that market. That is now in tatters, sales in the US have collapsed and no one there will touch a VW with a ten foot barge poll now. That is why they will need to go strongly to EV's there and going for the Crossover/SUV, it is their only hope of regaining market there.

In Europe, they are doing better, but still suffering due to Dieselgate, you can see that in Irish sales figures with the Golf dropping a few places and the Qashqai way outselling the Tiguan.

And now we have this news today, of big drop in sales in Germany with the introduction of the new WLTP standards, with VW particularly badly hit, their market share in September has halved compared to September last year!!

https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/new-emissions-tests-slash-german-car-sales-in-september/66049967

Diesel gate wasn't going to kill VW overnight, but it was going to hurt them badly for years to come. Sales will be gradually chipped away. Their great marketing is in ruins, US strategy in ruins, stricter emission standards chip away at sales, Diesel bans in cities chip away at sales. Not good for them over the long term. Not fatal, but very damaging.

That is why they have the hit the EV market in a very big way now, get in front of this transition and dominate it and rebuild their brand and marketshare. Another expensive, low production rate EV won't do that.

I suppose we will just have to wait and see.

bk · 03-10-2018 10:07am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Neo will never have combustion engine in it. It was developed only for electric.

While combustion engines are still around you will have Golf around with GTE options. Hence why eGolf got cancelled but the next Golf will have a GTE version

Oh, I know, it is pure EV. I meant they could reuse the GTE brand for a performance oriented BEVs.

I know the GTE is currently a PHEV, but if you think about it, it is a bit of a misuse of the brand. GTI and GTD after all are pure, performance tuned petrol and diesel engined cars, not hybrids. So the current GTE is a bit of a departure. A Neo GTE, performance tuned pure BEV, would actually be more in line with the GTI and GTD.

But maybe they will call it something else, Neo eGT maybe or Neo R. The point is anyway, a performance tuned Neo.

bk · 03-10-2018 10:24am

KCross wrote: »

I think your figures are wrong there. There was a €3k premium for the 30kWh over the 24kWh and then when they introduced the 40kWh they got rid of the 24/30 models and increased the price above the old price. They didnt reduce it.

The 24kwh started at €21,500 for very much entry level spec (XE) with no options. 30kwh started at €27k for mid spec (SV) model.

The Leaf 40 is more expensive, yes, it comes in at €28,690, though it is the mid-spec SV model and includes some of the options people use to pay for in the past, e.g. heat pump. There is now no entry level XE Leaf 40 here.

But remember the above prices are based on the last year of the old gen 1 leaf, while they are charging a bit of a premium for the new Gen 2 leaf. Pretty standard stuff.

However with the introduction of the 60kwh, I'd expect the 40 to drop in the next year or 2 and the 60 to slot into the place.

Leaf 40 for 23k (compared to the 21.5k 24kWh in the past) and a Leaf 60 for that 28 to 30k spot.

It is then within that range that a Neo 48kwh would need to compete.

unkel · 03-10-2018 10:29am

eagerv wrote: »

Or perhaps they will tread gently initially as the Koreans are doing

Believe me, the Koreans are only appearing to be treading gently because they can't get more batteries. I sense a very aggressive but patient long term strategy lurking beneath the surface

KCross · 03-10-2018 10:33am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ok a few things to note

VW have lost billions due to dieselgate
They had invested billions in diesel engines and now they are nearly obsolete, if you live in any country apart Ireland
They have invest billions in the ID design and range

VW cannot let it fail. You don't buy the value of Tesla in batteries and then overprice the car. That would be stupid. Why both going to all the hassle....they have said numerous times they will bring the electric car to the masses. Mentioned the ID Neo will be the VW Golf of the future.

You cannot base anything on the cars that have been released so far. Hyundai and Kia haven't really invested in the raw components because they are unsure of what direction to go. Look at line up diesel/petrol/hybrid/phev, electric and hydrogen??

Nissan had the market and seem to be falling over themselves to hand it over to someone else

VW after Neo will have: VW "old" range of mild hybrid diesel, hybrid petrol and VW ID Electric. No inbetween, no messing. A full range of electric cars with plants WW to manufacturer.

Lets say they release at 32k and Leaf drops to 28k, they sell no ID....at that stage to be honest you could seel the start of the end for VW....this has to make money and the best way is a cheap electric car they can sell millions of them....its not like VW dont know how to do that(Beetle )

Lot of good commentary on where VW are at. I agree with pretty much all of it.

I agree they need to make a success of the ID range. They arent doing it for green credentials (althought that is a large part of it after dieselgate). They are doing it to make money and they will try to maximise it.

You had a good post going thorugh the various manufacturers and what their plans are and it somewhat shows what I'm saying... the ID range will have very little competition when it comes out.

If you agree on that point and if you were the guy marketing the car would you set the price at what the market can bear (and sell all of them) or would you sell it as cheaply as possible (and still just sell all of them).... do you get my point?

What is VW's incentive to sell it at €25k? They will sell every single one and then some at €30k+. Thats my point.

If they decide to undercut the Leaf then great it puts the cat among the pigeons and forces everyone to re-price down, which would be great... I just cant see it happening. It just sounds too good to be true!

KCross · 03-10-2018 10:35am

bk wrote: »

The 24kwh started at €21,500 for very much entry level spec (XE) with no options. 30kwh started at €27k for mid spec (SV) model.

ok, but thats not an apples to apples there (XE vs SV). The actual price difference was €3k, iirc?

ELM327 · 03-10-2018 10:41am

KCross wrote: »

ok, but thats not an apples to apples there (XE vs SV). The actual price difference was €3k, iirc?

I don't believe you could get the 30kWh in XE spec.
Comparing apples to apples from memory it was a €4k upgrade to the 30kWh, initially, then reduced to approx €3k.

KCross · 03-10-2018 10:42am

bk wrote: »

However with the introduction of the 60kwh, I'd expect the 40 to drop in the next year or 2 and the 60 to slot into the place.

Leaf 40 for 23k (compared to the 21.5k 24kWh in the past) and a Leaf 60 for that 28 to 30k spot.

It is then within that range that a Neo 48kwh would need to compete.

or.... Leaf 60kWh for €32, Leaf 40kWh to stay as is at €28k
Then Neo 40kWh for €30k. People will still buy the VW at that price over the 60kWh Leaf.... ask ShefWedfan!

Why are you assuming that they will all drop the price when the 60kWh's come online. Someone would need to undercut the market for that to happen and VW dont do undercutting.

Even with VW's 1m EV's per year by 2025 its still only a small portion of the overall market. They will have no issue selling all of them so undercutting is not in their best interest.

paddy1976 · 03-10-2018 10:45am

I sat in the chassis of the ID. last week. Space in the back is amazing. I am 6'2 and had acres of legroom. Just so you know, it will be written ID. rather than I.D. as it was before. Neo is only the working title too, it will be called something else. Final car will be revealed next Autumn.

eagerv · 03-10-2018 10:51am

KCross wrote: »

or.... Leaf 60kWh for €32, Leaf 40kWh to stay as is at €28k
Then Neo 40kWh for €30k. People will still buy the VW at that price over the 60kWh Leaf.... ask ShefWedfan!

Why are you assuming that they will all drop the price when the 60kWh's come online. Someone would need to undercut the market for that to happen and VW dont do undercutting.

Even with VW's 1m EV's per year by 2025 its still only a small portion of the overall market. They will have no issue selling all of them so undercutting is not in their best interest.

Will the Neo be available with a 40kWh pack? Any info i have seen mentions 48kWh ?

Shefwedfan · 03-10-2018 10:54am

KCross wrote: »

If you agree on that point and if you were the guy marketing the car would you set the price at what the market can bear (and sell all of them) or would you sell it as cheaply as possible (and still just sell all of them).... do you get my point?

What is VW's incentive to sell it at €25k? They will sell every single one and then some at €30k+. Thats my point.

If they decide to undercut the Leaf then great it puts the cat among the pigeons and forces everyone to re-price down, which would be great... I just cant see it happening. It just sounds too good to be true!

So you have 2 options, price high because you are the only option in market and hope the customer are willing to pay for this
Or price competitive and wipe the competition out, so by the time they get house in order you already rule the market

In the case of VW they are actually doing both. So Audi has released the premium SUV and will have a line of cars as well.

VW brand I can see now going after the mid tier. It's not the first time I have seen 25k mentioned. So you price at 25k and suddenly you have a huge influx of customer. How many will buy 25k car? maybe 1-2% because when they go to dealership you happen to have a 28k model in stock etc etc....you can have this for 28k now or you can wait 8-12 weeks for your order..

This is not a new tactic from VW. As they have a plant firing out cars you will have people who are happy to wait extra 8-12 weeks for special delivery but that is normally because they are buying the 32k car. They want leather seats or something.....the standard punter wil take the car in stock. I see it all over VW garages everyday of the week......

Also it is easy upsell, so your 25k car does exist but it doesnt come with carnet, why would you not want to preheat/precool your car? so you can include that(26k) etc etc etc.....

If I go back to my 2 options at the start, the noise from VW is they are trying to wipe the market before everyone else gets house in order.

VW Neo (eGolf replacement)

Comments