Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

Del2005 · 21-05-2018 1:36pm

goz83 wrote: »

I was driving through Fairview and Summerhill this morning. I saw some Asian lady on one of the seated electric scooters...exactly like the one linked earlier in the thread which was seized. And I also saw one chap on something similar to an M365 outside the Rotunda. I think it was an E-TWO?

I've seen loads of people on bicycles with 2 stroke engines bolted on. Still doesn't make them legal.

goz83 · 21-05-2018 1:54pm

Del2005 wrote: »

I've seen loads of people on bicycles with 2 stroke engines bolted on. Still doesn't make them legal.

Thanks. Nobody has mentioned that they are illegal.

21-05-2018 2:00pm

Lets keep the legalities out of this discussion, it's up to people to check not boards.ie members to be the police.......

I'm not back seat modding by the way but this discussion is about the scooter not damn legalities.......

ED E · 21-05-2018 2:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As usual , someone wants to get something and the boards.ie police want to point out the legalities of it, so what if he wants to get this scooter what is it to people here ?

Maybe you disagree but IMO its worthwhile knowing that what the OP is suggesting can lead to serious penalties.

Goz clearly drives. Lets say Goz pays 1K PA for insurance. Goz gets done by a particularly caffeinated Garda for using his eScooter.
Convicted of: Driving uninsured. Driving a vehicle that isnt roadworthy. Driving without Tax(?). Driving without a licence for that category of vehicle(?). Etc
Goz declares to his insurer.
Goz's premium is now 6K PA. Maybe thats fine and Goz has it, maybe not. Maybe that puts him off the road.

Del2005 wrote: »

I've seen loads of people on bicycles with 2 stroke engines bolted on. Still doesn't make them legal.

There are some lawnmower mods that have assist settings now. The older type of straight throttle are totally illegal but it could be argued if they only have assist they're fine. Place in Harolds Cross appears to sell them.

21-05-2018 2:12pm

ED E wrote: »

Maybe you disagree but IMO its worthwhile knowing that what the OP is suggesting can lead to serious penalties.

That's a topic for another thread, the OP has been made aware of any possible legal issues no need to continue as this is a topic on the scooter.

beauf · 21-05-2018 3:00pm

(ignoring the legal position)

There is a lot of feedback about impracticality of a scooter for the OP situation...

The only way they will know if works for them, is to try it. Sometimes thats the only way people will be convinced.

Del2005 · 21-05-2018 4:17pm

goz83 wrote: »

Thanks. Nobody has mentioned that they are illegal.

They are PTW so again need tax licence and insurance, if you can get it, along with a helmet. And regardless of the power source I've only ever seen then on footpaths so completely illegal to be there.

beauf · 21-05-2018 4:20pm

If you are using the Roads or Paths on a scooter, I'd make sure you have a dental plan and a full face helmet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XAC5ps78V8

Del2005 · 21-05-2018 4:22pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's a topic for another thread, the OP has been made aware of any possible legal issues no need to continue as this is a topic on the scooter.

The topic is the use of an illegal vehicle on Irish roads. I though that it was against Boards policy to offer advice on breaking our laws, or is it only against the policy to suggest illegally using technology to avoid copyright restrictions and not to advise someone to break multiple traffic regulations?

goz83 · 21-05-2018 4:48pm

Del2005 wrote: »

The topic is the use of an illegal vehicle on Irish roads. I though that it was against Boards policy to offer advice on breaking our laws, or is it only against the policy to suggest illegally using technology to avoid copyright restrictions and not to advise someone to break multiple traffic regulations?

Boards.ie allows the discussion of high horses which don't require tax, so I don't see why a discussion about electric scooters should not be allowed. The legal status has already been pointed out several times (by you).

As an aside, what is the difference between the scooter with the seat and this =>

One is legal and the other is not. Why? Bigger seat is ok....or...if you have grey hair, you get a pass?

elperello · 21-05-2018 5:03pm

It's an interesting thread.
Can we not agree to discuss the two different aspects, practicalities and legalities, in tandem?

eeeee · 21-05-2018 5:31pm

I accept that cycling isn't for everyone, but OP don't let perceived danger put you off, because it really isn't.

Just to correct some misconceptions and misinformation:

Deleted User wrote: »

It is not safe or wise to be using bus lanes as cycle lanes, it's disgraceful really and I can understand quiet well if someone was not interested in that mode of transport, Human V Double Decker Bus = squashed Human !

Not only that but there's very little if any separation from cyclist and traffic.

goz83 wrote: »

I appreciate your input and your experience. However, I don't think cycling in Dublin cc is safe at all. It's grand where dedicated cycle lanes are in place and are off the road, but after that, it's a gamble. The cycle lanes are plagued with debris, glass, gravel, drains and then you have motorists cutting in to make a left turn a half second before you cross their path.

This. Not a recipe for a joyful, safe commute.

Also the thought of exerting myself and deeply inhaling diesel particulates in congested traffic is not my idea of getting fit and healthy. Maybe that's a little hysterical of me.

Cycling is extremely safe in Dublin city centre. 95,000 people use their bikes around the city centre every single day largely without incident. I've been doing it myself for 15 years and remain alive :pac:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/number-of-daily-dublin-cyclists-doubles-to-more-than-95-000-1.3230465
It's actually more dangerous to be a pedestrian.

Deleted User wrote: »

You are correct, all those cyclists thinking they're fit and healthy are deeply breathing in PM2.5 known to cause heart disease, lung disease, heart attacks, stroke and Alzheimers. They might feel physically fit but the effects may not be known for decades.

Of course we breath it in sitting in traffic but you're not as as exposed or breathing nearly as deep.

I wouldn't cycle in Dublin anyway, I wouldn't want to be part of this Cyclist against driver and driver against cyclist nonsense that goes on.

Again the pollution thing is not true either, you inhale far more fumes in a car than on a bike or on foot in the same traffic:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/12/children-risk-air-pollution-cars-former-uk-chief-scientist-warns

If you do get an electric scooter OP, where will you scoot it? On the footpath or the road? I have seen a few of these things and they're too fast for a footpath, but too slow for the road. I wonder where they're legally supposed to go?

ted1 · 21-05-2018 5:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Lets keep the legalities out of this discussion, it's up to people to check not boards.ie members to be the police.......

I'm not back seat modding by the way but this discussion is about the scooter not damn legalities.......

Back seat modding would say stop the conversation.
As boards charter prevents discussion or advice for endorsing illegal activity

21-05-2018 5:51pm

Del2005 wrote: »

The topic is the use of an illegal vehicle on Irish roads. I though that it was against Boards policy to offer advice on breaking our laws, or is it only against the policy to suggest illegally using technology to avoid copyright restrictions and not to advise someone to break multiple traffic regulations?

What's it to you ? when someone asks about whether something is legal or not I'm sure your input will be valuable until then.......

Go preach somewhere else.

21-05-2018 5:54pm

ted1 wrote: »

Back seat modding would say stop the conversation.
As boards charter prevents discussion or advice for endorsing illegal activity

Oh aren't you the clever one, go Hijack someone else's thread !!!!

If anyone is not happy with the discussing the scooter then I suggest you go somewhere else !

beauf · 21-05-2018 6:25pm

Any discussion about electric scooters is going to have positives and negatives.

21-05-2018 8:55pm

Yes which is fine if it's about the scooter itself, the OP was made well aware of legalities for the first page so no need for people to keep taking the moral high ground and preaching on about it as if anyone cares less trying to be the boards.ie legal police as if they have some kind of loyalty to boards.ie , it's really rather sickening really.

beauf · 21-05-2018 9:15pm

Electric scooters are a highly charged subject ...

phester28 · 29-05-2018 10:38am

I sympathies with the OP. Allot of boardies are attempting to quote the law. It has been a few years since I read up on the regs but I know that alot of Ebikes sold under the bike to work scheme were considered non self propelled (pedal assisted) to be compliant with the law but once you began peddling the motor would then kick in and remain on.

This is in no way different to what the OP has found with a scooter that will not self drive until first pushed meaning that under the determination in law it falls under the peddle assisted category. I think I remember reading the European directive on this which was much clearer but it has been transposed into Irish law.

beauf · 29-05-2018 11:48am

phester28 wrote: »

...considered non self propelled (pedal assisted) to be compliant with the law but once you began peddling the motor would then kick in and remain on.

You're wrong. Assisted means = once you stop pedaling the motor stops.

If the motor does not stop then its not assisted.

phester28 wrote: »

This is in no way different to what the OP has found with a scooter that will not self drive until first pushed meaning that under the determination in law it falls under the peddle assisted category. ..

Because your wrong in the first bit. The second bit is therefore also wrong.

Its a pity. They should have some other category for scooters and skateboards which are limited to slower speeds.

1) Pedestrian Speeds
2) Cycling speeds
3) Moped speeds

beauf · 29-05-2018 11:55am

Also the EU is thinking of making them all require insurance now. Assisted and non assisted.

http://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws/2018/05/perplexing-decision-european-commission-e-bikes-must-insured-10133795
https://cyclingindustry.news/european-commission-proposes-legislation-to-outlaw-electric-bike-use-on-europes-roads/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/e-bike-insurance-proposal-is-eu-bureaucracy-gone-mad-1.3511746

...appear to show that member states of the EU will retain the right to exempt electric bikes, should their Governments so choose...

Maybe insurance companies are realizing they've priced us out of cars. They need some skin in the alternatives.

phester28 · 29-05-2018 2:37pm

I hear what your saying but you are speaking if your an expert in this area. In the Ebikes that you do have to "pedal" 0% of the power can be provided by the pedal and the motor will stay engaged. You just need to keep the pedals from being stationary for a few seconds and the motor continues to work.

Now I have seen plenty as I have stated above that sold under the bike to work scheme that are approved and will work as I have previously described. Pedal power needed to take the bike from stationary and after that the motor will stay engaged. I also believe this is how the bottom bracket motor versions work with the motor at the pedals as apposed to the hub of the wheel.

Bigus · 29-05-2018 4:31pm

phester28 wrote: »

Pedal power needed to take the bike from stationary and after that the motor will stay engaged. I also believe this is how the bottom bracket motor versions work with the motor at the pedals as apposed to the hub of the wheel.

Absolutely not , all Bosch mid drive motors will not assist unless a fairly decent force is applied to pedals , as well as a fairly fast cadence.

They are also hard to hack or circumvent top speed assist beyond 25 km/h (higher in US), Bosch are no eejits , and are selling so many units they are doing their best to stay onside with legislators, by making them ultra compliant.

Johnboy1951 · 29-05-2018 5:38pm

@goz83

First of all the small wheels on a scooter like you mentioned would, IMO, play havoc with a back injury, even though you would be standing.
From what I have read even a 10 mm bump is very noticeable and uncomfortable.

Second .... without getting into personal info, I think you might benefit from advise from someone who is used to dealing with disabilities and driving.
The seat position in relation to the steering wheel and pedal/s, as well as the shape and angle of the squab, has a huge bearing on the strain put on the back.
I haven't even mentioned the backrest/headrest/lumbar-support.

The reason for mentioning this is that you might well find that some changes to the driving seat arrangement & position would allow you to comfortably drive an EV the full distance to work, with the added benefit of being in out of the inclement weather.

I would certainly investigate and do some tests in the seating position before I made a final decision.
In either case I would not ever consider a small-wheeled cycle of any sort.
Neither would I worry too much about the weight, as it is a simple matter to put a small hoist into the rear of a vehicle that could lift the bike.

I hope you find a solution that suits your needs.

ted1 · 29-05-2018 7:25pm

phester28 wrote: »

I hear what your saying but you are speaking if your an expert in this area. In the Ebikes that you do have to "pedal" 0% of the power can be provided by the pedal and the motor will stay engaged. You just need to keep the pedals from being stationary for a few seconds and the motor continues to work.

Now I have seen plenty as I have stated above that sold under the bike to work scheme that are approved and will work as I have previously described. Pedal power needed to take the bike from stationary and after that the motor will stay engaged. I also believe this is how the bottom bracket motor versions work with the motor at the pedals as apposed to the hub of the wheel.

Nope , once you stop peddling the motor stops. That’s how all the Yamaha and Bosch engines work

beauf · 29-05-2018 7:35pm

phester28 wrote: »

I hear what your saying but you are speaking if your an expert in this area. ..

No I'm quoting the law/rules.

phester28 wrote: »

In the Ebikes that you do have to "pedal" 0% of the power can be provided by the pedal and the motor will stay engaged. You just need to keep the pedals from being stationary for a few seconds and the motor continues to work.

Now I have seen plenty as I have stated above that sold under the bike to work scheme that are approved and will work as I have previously described. Pedal power needed to take the bike from stationary and after that the motor will stay engaged. I also believe this is how the bottom bracket motor versions work with the motor at the pedals as apposed to the hub of the wheel.

Why don't you read the law.

29-05-2018 8:09pm

Bigus wrote: »

by making them ultra compliant.

You're pretty wrong there mate if you love your regulations and ultra compliance then I'm sorry to disappoint you about Bosch, they run well above legal power limits, around 750 watts peak, at least for the 2013 non performance version, newer versions , especially their performance motors could run higher power.

This is necessary to allow cyclists who are not so fit to climb steep hills but the regulators are too dumb to understand this and refuse to increase the limit or fail to understand the circumstances as to where max power should be applied.

Bosch over come this by limiting acceleration and allowing full power only at a fast cadence and certain rider input torque.

I'm sure most other manufacturers of ebike motor kits also do this because 250 watts wouldn't pull you out of bed and Bosch, Panasonic etc would not sell any ebikes if they had such a pathetic limit of power.

Bosch are clever alright and fair play to them, their ebike system is fantastic. Having a 2013 myself I love it only shame I don't get the time to ride it the last few years. It even pulled me all the way to the RTE mast up Mount Leinster something a 250 watt motor would not allow. Not saying it wasn't hard work, the Bosch system makes you work and this is where it applies max power , where you need it the most.

I've no doubt some poor quality front drive hub motor ebikes from china, bought for 250 euro's and sold for 1500 lol will run 250 watts but that's because they're very small and can't take more power, they're cheap junk, but there are some great quality motors from China too.

phester28 · 30-05-2018 10:18am

beauf wrote: »

No I'm quoting the law/rules.

Why don't you read the law.

Where have you quoted the law. you have interpreted the law. No quotes or references to Irish law have been provided. You seem to be taking this personally and saying that I should read the law where as I have already said I have read both the Irish law and European directive relating to same.

Irish law is not descriptive enough on this matter and relates to Bikes only.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_transporter
https://swiftyscooters.com/electric-scooters-hoverboards-electric-skateboards-whats-legal/ more info but does not relate to Ireland, only Europe

The European Committee for Standardization has been working on this for a while now. it was supposed to release this in late 2017 but I do not beleive this has happened yet. Meanwhile many countries have still leglislated for this but Ireland as always has not put a robust legal definition in place.

There is plenty of Q and A on the RSA website but again its does not address the situation as per the OP

Here is a link to open up the topic again with someone who has jumped through the hoops and now rides his eskateboard around without risk of prosecution
http://gyrowheel.ie/electric-scooters-skateboards-and-unicycles-officially-legal-in-ireland/

30-05-2018 10:30am

E.U law is clear in relation to electric bikes, but it it not up to the Irish Government to implement it or put it in Irish law ? because I too have not seen any information on ebikes in Irish law.

Johnboy1951 · 30-05-2018 11:30am

phester28 wrote: »

.....

Here is a link to open up the topic again with someone who has jumped through the hoops and now rides his eskateboard around without risk of prosecution
http://gyrowheel.ie/electric-scooters-skateboards-and-unicycles-officially-legal-in-ireland/

I do not find that convincing at all.
No doubt he did the best he could but there are too many things unexplained.

In what law is that 45 MPH mentioned?
If he is depending on it then it must be shown to be there.

Where is he now permitted to use his skateboard? ....
cycly lanes?
main roadway?
foothpaths?

He says that a Garda told him none of the above before he did his 'research', but no mention where it is legal to use the skateboard after his research.

I would not be depending on this blog for anything other than a start to more serious research, particularly to the letter and interpretation of existing law.

Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

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