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Jamal Khashoggi disappearance

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    goat2 wrote: »
    His fiancé was outside embassy with his phone, maybe he had it synched with the watch, supposed to be uploaded to cloud, will wait and see, he being a journalist would have been well up on how these things work

    bluetooth range is only 30 feet in the open air, nevermind through walls. there is a long entrance to the building. impossible.


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    #93
    OleRodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Apparently, he told his fiance waiting outside to call an advisor to the Turkish president if he didn't come back out.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRG8lA3v0sg


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    #94
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,976 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    It shows the state of the world, when the Saudis can just murder a man, dismember his body and get away with it (they will pay a guy to take the hit and do a decade in jail).

    But other than that, nothing. No punishment.

    The UK and US will continue to sell them aircraft and weapons, and buy their oil. No damage to relations.

    Shocking.


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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    NIMAN wrote: »
    It shows the state of the world, when the Saudis can just murder a man, dismember his body and get away with it (they will pay a guy to take the hit and do a decade in jail).

    But other than that, nothing. No punishment.

    The UK and US will continue to sell them aircraft and weapons, and buy their oil. No damage to relations.

    Shocking.

    that's realpolitik - has being going on since the dawn of time.

    'cos like, it's complicated.

    mister bone saw's true self is out there for the world to see at least. he'll never get over this.


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    #96
    OleRodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Awkward...

    Wonder how Google etc will react. Remember Google fired an engineer (who was also a qualified biologist) for suggesting women may not have the same natural technical aptitudes as men.


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-crown-prince-visits-apple-google-2018-4?r=US&IR=T


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    #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Awkward...

    Wonder how Google etc will react. Remember Google fired an engineer (who was also a qualified biologist) for suggesting women may not have the same natural technical aptitudes as men.


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-crown-prince-visits-apple-google-2018-4?r=US&IR=T

    that could be the last school tour that he gets to go on.


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    #98
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    NIMAN wrote: »
    It shows the state of the world, when the Saudis can just murder a man, dismember his body and get away with it (they will pay a guy to take the hit and do a decade in jail).

    But other than that, nothing. No punishment.

    The UK and US will continue to sell them aircraft and weapons, and buy their oil. No damage to relations.

    Shocking.

    Yeah. And it is hard to ignore that Saudi Arabia is doing this because it knows it can get away with it.

    Saudi would not have dreamed of their hysterically belligerent response to Canada under any other American president. But no other US president would have publically, personally and consistently undermined a friendly alliance with its neighbour. A journalist (attached to the Washington Post, of which Trumps personal contempt is well-known) is quite blatantly murdered in the Saudi embassy in Turkey and disposed of in a gruesome and obviously preplanned fashion. One does not impulsively bring a bone saw anywhere that one ends up using it. The bet that Trump wouldn't easily risk American "interests", or his personal enrichment for a WaPo reporter given he couldn't be bothered to defend Canada has pretty good odds. Trump emboldened another autocrat by his behaviour.

    And let's not forget an induced famine and targeting of civilian areas in Yemen. There's not exactly been much responsibility taken by the US and UK in arming the Saudis in the face of war crimes. Is it any wonder that bin Salman knows he can act with more or less impunity? Time was that having Washington Post credentials meant something in a friendly allied country.


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    #99
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    Rhineshark wrote: »
    Yeah. And it is hard to ignore that Saudi Arabia is doing this because it knows it can get away with it.

    Saudi would not have dreamed of their hysterically belligerent response to Canada under any other American president. But no other US president would have publically, personally and consistently undermined a friendly alliance with its neighbour. A journalist (attached to the Washington Post, of which Trumps personal contempt is well-known) is quite blatantly murdered in the Saudi embassy in Turkey and disposed of in a gruesome and obviously preplanned fashion. One does not impulsively bring a bone saw anywhere that one ends up using it. The bet that Trump wouldn't easily risk American "interests", or his personal enrichment for a WaPo reporter given he couldn't be bothered to defend Canada has pretty good odds. Trump emboldened another autocrat by his behaviour.

    And let's not forget an induced famine and targeting of civilian areas in Yemen. There's not exactly been much responsibility taken by the US and UK in arming the Saudis in the face of war crimes. Is it any wonder that bin Salman knows he can act with more or less impunity? Time was that having Washington Post credentials meant something in a friendly allied country.

    Jesus is there anything people wont blame on Trump, be it Trump or Clinton in the White House it makes no difference to this


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    #100
    StringerBell
    Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    To completely ignore the role of the US in this, regardless of the President is a bit foolish though.

    Things don't happen in a vacuum.

    Does it mean Trump is to blame for this act? No of course not, has Trumps behaviour fostered a climate where something like this could happen? Absolutely.

    Even look at his handling of it since, he is playing the role of defender of Saudi rather than an independent actor interested in getting to the facts. This stuff does matter whether you like it or not.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



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    #101
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,769 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    In fairness Trump said there would be serious consequences for this - then took a bizarre turn and claimed it could have been "rogue killers" for which there is no evidence or basis

    Glad to see the story is still making front pages - it's putting a spotlight on Salman and recent disappearances in Saudi. It will be ridiculous if the international community do not punish/sanction the country if there is sufficient evidence

    That said, keep in mind we do business with countries like China all the time out of necessity, a place where people, even high profile, are "disappeared" on a regular basis.


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    #102
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    I don't think anyone is blaming Trump but he will be responsible for how the US responds.

    Clinton or her/his sons didn't have close business connections with Saudi.


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    #103
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Rhineshark wrote: »
    Yeah. And it is hard to ignore that Saudi Arabia is doing this because it knows it can get away with it.

    Saudi would not have dreamed of their hysterically belligerent response to Canada under any other American president. But no other US president would have publically, personally and consistently undermined a friendly alliance with its neighbour. A journalist (attached to the Washington Post, of which Trumps personal contempt is well-known) is quite blatantly murdered in the Saudi embassy in Turkey and disposed of in a gruesome and obviously preplanned fashion. One does not impulsively bring a bone saw anywhere that one ends up using it. The bet that Trump wouldn't easily risk American "interests", or his personal enrichment for a WaPo reporter given he couldn't be bothered to defend Canada has pretty good odds. Trump emboldened another autocrat by his behaviour.

    And let's not forget an induced famine and targeting of civilian areas in Yemen. There's not exactly been much responsibility taken by the US and UK in arming the Saudis in the face of war crimes. Is it any wonder that bin Salman knows he can act with more or less impunity? Time was that having Washington Post credentials meant something in a friendly allied country.

    Sorry this is naive partisan crap. Yemen is Obama’s war. The Saudis probably wanted rid of ghaddaffi too. Nobody stands up to them. I mean Canada is taking in Isis fighters.


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    #104
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Sorry this is naive partisan crap. Yemen is Obama’s war. The Saudis probably wanted rid of ghaddaffi too. Nobody stands up to them. I mean Canada is taking in Isis fighters.

    Okay, how about you respond to the actual contents of the post now? Do you think that S.A. would have, say, acted in that totally over-the-top way to Canada with any other US president in power in the US? If not, why not. If so, examples.

    And Yemen is Saudi's war, lead by a Saudi coalition. Backed up by a number of cowardly western countries that are afraid to say boo to the Saudi regime due to wanting to sell them weapons.


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    #105
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think that Mr Bone Saw will have to be replaced as crown prince. Looks like the best way out of this for the Saudis.
    the only credible way in any case.


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    #106
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    glasso wrote: »
    I think that Mr Bone Saw will have to be replaced as crown prince. Looks like the best way out of this for the Saudis.
    the only credible way in any case.

    Oh jaysus no. MBS has no real need to care about credibility. US isn't going to do anything about it. UK aren't going to do anything about it bar continue selling them weapons The EU will make an effort which will result in the US having a go at the EU again. The UN is toothless. Neighbouring countries are either unable to stand up to S.A. or unwilling to (or in the process of being bombed and starved back to the stone age).

    Credibility doesn't particularly matter when you're an autocrat. Especially one backed up by another powerful country.


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    #107
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    That said, keep in mind we do business with countries like China all the time out of necessity, a place where people, even high profile, are "disappeared" on a regular basis.

    Like the president of Interpol, a story that somehow completely has disappeared....?!


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    #108
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    wexie wrote: »
    Like the president of Interpol, a story that somehow completely has disappeared....?!

    the Chinese are just better at this sh1t - they don't get caught in the act with bone-sawing audio. they are in a different league. great bunch of lads. the Saudis are amateurs.


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    #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rhineshark wrote: »
    Oh jaysus no. MBS has no real need to care about credibility. US isn't going to do anything about it. UK aren't going to do anything about it bar continue selling them weapons The EU will make an effort which will result in the US having a go at the EU again. The UN is toothless. Neighbouring countries are either unable to stand up to S.A. or unwilling to (or in the process of being bombed and starved back to the stone age).

    Credibility doesn't particularly matter when you're an autocrat. Especially one backed up by another powerful country.

    well there are a load of other family inbreds to choose from. mabye one of them is not a psychopath.


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    #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    wexie wrote: »
    Like the president of Interpol, a story that somehow completely has disappeared....?!

    I don't think that they chopped him up alive tho. He will reappear - just in for some re-education. like the actress earlier on this year.


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    #111
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    glasso wrote: »
    I don't think that they chopped him up alive tho. He will reappear - just in for some re-education. like the actress earlier on this year.

    that is probably true


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Now this may have to be sent to the conspiracy forum, but here goes

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-18/trump-s-prophecy-comes-true-as-russians-flock-to-saudi-forum

    Now we all know bumping off dissenters and disappearing journalists isn’t something Mr Putin finds particularly abhorrent, so it is no surprise he is going.

    Germany has stopped arms sales to Saudi and France and The UK are now under even more pressure to do so.

    Meanwhile (ok, a year ago) in Moscow https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41512759

    If there is one thing this whole episode has done, it is to weaken Saudi ties to the west.

    Now if Russia were behind this, they would need a convenient third party to help. Now, I wonder who their new best friends are?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-putin-erdogan-hope/russia-and-turkey-agree-to-create-buffer-zone-in-syrias-idlib-idUSKCN1LX1BU


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    #113
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    glasso wrote: »
    I don't think that they chopped him up alive tho. He will reappear - just in for some re-education. like the actress earlier on this year.

    It seems like he was butchered alive.


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    #114
    embraer170
    Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭embraer170


    He might have had a 4G Apple Watch, which would not have needed to be within Bluetooth range of his phone.

    Do any Turkish networks supports eSims?

    Of course the most likely scenario is that the embassy was bugged.


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    #115
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    embraer170 wrote: »
    He might have had a 4G Apple Watch, which would not have needed to be within Bluetooth range of his phone.

    Do any Turkish networks supports eSims?

    Of course the most likely scenario is that the embassy was bugged.

    Few articles on this already, according to them there are currently no networks in Turkey that this is possible with. Good few tech journalists have said it simply can't have been done with an Apple watch


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    #116
    TomOnBoard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    Gael23 wrote: »
    It seems like he was butchered alive.

    I think Glasso was referring to the Head of Interpol in China...


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    #117
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    NIMAN wrote: »
    It shows the state of the world, when the Saudis can just murder a man, dismember his body and get away with it (they will pay a guy to take the hit and do a decade in jail).

    But other than that, nothing. No punishment.

    The UK and US will continue to sell them aircraft and weapons, and buy their oil. No damage to relations.

    Shocking.

    islam has been doing that for 1500 years, nothing new.

    If they cannot subjugate you they kill you.

    The imams fear losing power, they fear democracy will put an end to the Saudi family rule which keeps them both in power.

    The killing was halal so everything is kosher.


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    #118
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    old_aussie wrote: »
    islam has been doing that for 1500 years, nothing new.

    If they cannot subjugate you they kill you.

    The imams fear losing power, they fear democracy will put an end to the Saudi family rule which keeps them both in power.

    The killing was halal so everything is kosher.

    First & Second line: Usual boring "Islam is the evil to blame here", despite this being a political murder and nothing to do with Islam, bar it being the majority religion of the country. Kinda like hearing about the murder of Veronica Guerin, nodding sagely and saying that the Catholic church has been oppressing Ireland for a century (or that Britain has oppressed Ireland for X). Sure, but is it remotely connected to this murder?

    Third line: so close to being relevant except MBS is the crown Prince not a head imam. He is indeed afraid of any perceived threat to the Saudi ruling family, particularly his own power. This is why he has being busily consolidating his power, squashing any rival claims and sending messages to critics regarding the safety of criticising the Crown. I have no doubt he does have support of many Imams (and is probably disliked by others as a supposed "reformer"). I suspect he has the support of many businesses too. This does not mean that S.Aramco murdered Khashoggi either.

    Fourth line; No, Muslims do not eat each other (or anyone else) although it's worrying that this has to be explained. So halal doesn't come into it bar being a custom of Islam that you're apparently vaguely aware of. Kosher isn't even the same religion. It wasn't communion, confirmation or first confession either. Although if you were in the room long enough to make a detailed enough study of the murder to conclude that it was "halal", why are you not off giving a statement rather than talking ...tbh rubbish about it?

    Basically, everything you wrote in that post was either wrong or a totally different topic.


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    #119
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Interesting article here that identifies the members of the 'alleged' hit team.
    I'd love to know quite what 'innocent' explanation is going to be given for a bunch of Royal Guards, intelligence officers and a forensic pathologist to have taken 2 private jets for a daytrip to Turkey :rolleyes:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-45906396


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    #120
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Aegir wrote: »
    Now this may have to be sent to the conspiracy forum, but here goes

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-18/trump-s-prophecy-comes-true-as-russians-flock-to-saudi-forum

    Now we all know bumping off dissenters and disappearing journalists isn’t something Mr Putin finds particularly abhorrent, so it is no surprise he is going.

    Germany has stopped arms sales to Saudi and France and The UK are now under even more pressure to do so.

    Meanwhile (ok, a year ago) in Moscow https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41512759

    If there is one thing this whole episode has done, it is to weaken Saudi ties to the west.

    Now if Russia were behind this, they would need a convenient third party to help. Now, I wonder who their new best friends are?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-putin-erdogan-hope/russia-and-turkey-agree-to-create-buffer-zone-in-syrias-idlib-idUSKCN1LX1BU

    I was infracted for just laughing at this nonsense. So let’s go deeper.

    You’d think that with clear evidence that Saudi is controlling the West’s foreign policy (to the extent that they have organised this killing expecting no repercussions and in fact won’t get any when the dust settles and people go back to strictly) people might move on from the deep state produced nonsense about Russia. One of your “proofs” here is that some Russian companies are still appearing at an event that some western companies have pulled out from. The other is an article about arms deals from a year ago which is tiny relative to the deals the U.K., US and other western powers engage in. The second article even admitted Russia and Saudi they were on opposite sides in the Syrian war.

    You’d think that with clearer evidence (it was always clear to anybody who looked) of Saudi influence on the west that the Syrian war would be re-examined. Saudi after all supported radical jihadists in the Syrian war, but it’s considered conspiratorial to say the west supported anybody but the non existent moderate rebels.


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    #121
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    old_aussie wrote: »
    islam has been doing that for 1500 years, nothing new.

    If they cannot subjugate you they kill you.

    The imams fear losing power, they fear democracy will put an end to the Saudi family rule which keeps them both in power.

    The killing was halal so everything is kosher.

    The Islamic lands were in fact not all that warlike for millennia.

    And democracy isn’t what the Saudis fear. No uprising against the kingdom is going to lead to a liberal democracy.


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