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So...Ok then...How do we talk about it? (Irish Presidential Election Result)

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Comments

  • #32
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    FG only care about profit?

    Can you explain that, profit for who like?

    The country? The government?

    Isn’t that a good thing??

    In small doses yes but not at the current obscene level they appear to be advocating for


  • #33
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    splinter65 wrote: »
    My brother would be very far left liberal leaning but despises the entitlement culture that’s so eloquently espoused by Ms Margaret Cash and the Travellers in Thurles. It’s reallt not difficult to see that the notion that personal responsibilty is something that other people need is actually bad for everyone in every way.

    I think I am misunderstanding, are you saying personal responsibility is bad?


  • #34
    mloc123
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    naughtb4 wrote: »
    I didn't vote Casey, but agree 100% with you.

    It's up to those who voted Casey and others who feel similarly to ensure it is an issue come the next GE and to speak to their representatives about it. The media are already trying to use the uneducated angle , which is incredibly insulting

    Talk of this translating into votes at GE.... How?
    We have no center/center-right parties here.


  • #35
    Fanny Wank
    Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Fanny Wank


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Talk of this translating into votes at GE.... How?
    We have no center/center-right parties here.

    This is the issue I'm confused about

    I spoiled last GE as I felt I was essentially being asked who I'd prefer to pick my pocket. I'm not sure where an actual alternative that may be able to influence government will come from


  • #36
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Talk of this translating into votes at GE.... How?
    We have no center/center-right parties here.

    Except for Fianna Fail and Fine Gael.

    Please describe how either are left-wing, since that is the obvious implication and I doubt you just forgot about the two main parties!


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  • #37
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Talk of this translating into votes at GE.... How?
    We have no center/center-right parties here.

    I didn't mention votes but given how populist our main parties are, if they see a shift at least some element will try to follow it

    Would it not be FGs traditional base?


  • #38
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    So being widely reported across the media that Casey is joining FF.

    Honestly have we learned nothing as a society?


  • #39
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    P_1 wrote: »
    So being widely reported across the media that Casey is joining FF.

    Honestly have we learned nothing as a society?

    Meh, keeps him semi-corralled and it appears to be the natural lair for Dragons. I don't see him getting the Taoiseach role he fondly hopes for.


  • #40
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,147 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    P_1 wrote: »
    We have serious issues in this country.

    FF just give everything away
    The Blueshirts whored us out to the American mncs and only care about profit
    Labour betrayed the working class
    Look at the mess the shinners created up north

    It costs 3 times as much to rent here than it does in Manchester.
    Nothing works here, look at healthcare and public transport.
    Rather than punch up everyone seems to be happier punching down.

    How do we fix this?

    This narrative that's being perpetuated across boards bugs me.

    Our issues around our welfare system, transport, healthcare etc didn't start when FG came to power. They've been around a decades.

    Some guy yesterday on one of the AH threads holds Varadkar personally responsible and seems to think that once anyone but FG come to power it'll be all sorted, to which he got a stupid amount of thanks.

    It's an astounding level of ignorance to the workings and history of our society and when government does change, but societal Issues don't, it'll lead to further disillusionment of those without a proper understanding.


  • #41
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,147 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    P_1 wrote: »
    So being widely reported across the media that Casey is joining FF.

    Honestly have we learned nothing as a society?

    Martin said yesterday there's no place for him in FF. Of course he doesn't seem to be on top of what's happening in his party these days.


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  • #42
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    Hurrache wrote: »
    This narrative that's being perpetuated across boards bugs me.

    Our issues around our welfare system, transport, healthcare etc didn't start when FG came to power. They've been around a decades.

    Some guy yesterday on one of the AH threads holds Varadkar personally responsible and seems to think that once anyone but FG come to power it'll be all sorted, to which he got a stupid amount of thanks.

    It's an astounding level of ignorance to the workings and history of our society and when government does change, but societal Issues don't, it'll lead to further disillusionment of those without a proper understanding.

    While yes, I agree, there's not much point having expectations of AH threads.


  • #43
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,147 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Absolutely, but it spills over into here on occasion, bloody blue shirts.


  • #44
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,824 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Rhineshark wrote: »
    Meh, keeps him semi-corralled and it appears to be the natural lair for Dragons. I don't see him getting the Taoiseach role he fondly hopes for.

    George Lee joined FG thinking he would be put at the front of the queue ahead of all the other lifelong political cut throats. He quickly found out he was very wrong and quit.
    Casey too will quickly find himself in the same situation!


  • #45
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Hurrache wrote: »
    This narrative that's being perpetuated across boards bugs me.

    Our issues around our welfare system, transport, healthcare etc didn't start when FG came to power. They've been around a decades.

    Some guy yesterday on one of the AH threads holds Varadkar personally responsible and seems to think that once anyone but FG come to power it'll be all sorted, to which he got a stupid amount of thanks.

    It's an astounding level of ignorance to the workings and history of our society and when government does change, but societal Issues don't, it'll lead to further disillusionment of those without a proper understanding.

    Yes they have been here decades mainly perpetuated by the FF/FG duopoly that we continually appear to be addicted to. However when some new thinking is proposed it is quickly shat on.

    When you see that how can you not be disillusioned?


  • #46
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    tretorn wrote: »
    We need enforcing of the existing laws and some effective consequences for travellers who break those laws.

    The huge suicide rate among male travellers leads me to believe that the fear of 'consequences' doesn't always have a preventative effect. If your life seems meaningless anyway, then having your liberty taken away from you poses far less fear. If anything needs to be enforced, it's education - and not just enforced, but also heavily invested in. If your parents didn't get much of an education, then it automatically follows that the necessary supports they can't give you should be provided by the education system instead. And that's expensive.


  • #47
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,266 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    salmocab wrote: »
    I’m not so sure that the Casey vote is much to do with the right, it’s a lazy comparison made by poor journalism. I’d be quite liberal leaning as would a lot of my friends and there was a lot of sympathy for his views. I wouldn’t think it actually translated into votes within my circle of friends for him.
    It’s quiye possible to be liberal and dislike people in society living off your taxes, I’m not just talking about some travelers but plenty of settled people too. Liberal doesn’t mean that you support a welfare state. It’s a phrase that’s been stolen by far right groups and turned into something it isn’t.

    100%


  • #48
    Rhineshark
    Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Rhineshark


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    George Lee joined FG thinking he would be put at the front of the queue ahead of all the other lifelong political cut throats. He quickly found out he was very wrong and quit.
    Casey too will quickly find himself in the same situation!

    Apart from the ones that went really all-in, most of his voters couldn't particularly defend him and focussed on either "he told it like it is" (and tried to avoid all his other nonsense) or attacking Higgins to prove that there was no alternative but to vote for the eejity guy.

    He benefited from it being a short campaign and his grenade being in the last week. Actual exposure to him over a period probably won't help him with long-term vote support.


  • #49
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,034 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    The problem is we don’t have an economic right of centre party with a liberal left mix on certain social issues.

    For example,
    A review of welfare (a la the Tories disability review in England approx 4 years ago) is needed but no party will advocate this.
    Not increasing welfare payements at a time when the country loses more money than it makes (the exact opposite of what fg and ff done in the budget)
    Taxing the profits of banks, needs to be re-introduced.

    But we need a party that welcomes,
    Same sex marriage,
    Immigration of skilled people who will contribute to the tax pot.
    Further separation of the church from the state.
    Pro choice.

    Is there a party in Ireland that provides all of this? No.
    Renua have the first paragraph but the exact opposite of the second.
    Ff+fg+labour have the second paragraph but none of the first.

    This is the problem in Ireland. If a party with all these principles came into power they’d do well


  • #50
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    tom1ie wrote: »
    The problem is we don’t have an economic right of centre party with a liberal left mix on certain social issues.

    For example,
    A review of welfare (a la the Tories disability review in England approx 4 years ago) is needed but no party will advocate this.
    Not increasing welfare payements at a time when the country loses more money than it makes (the exact opposite of what fg and ff done in the budget)
    Taxing the profits of banks, needs to be re-introduced.

    But we need a party that welcomes,
    Same sex marriage,
    Immigration of skilled people who will contribute to the tax pot.
    Further separation of the church from the state.
    Pro choice.

    Is there a party in Ireland that provides all of this? No.
    Renua have the first paragraph but the exact opposite of the second.
    Ff+fg+labour have the second paragraph but none of the first.

    This is the problem in Ireland. If a party with all these principles came into power they’d do well

    Ok while we definitely don't want to copy anything that came from the Tories arent the Soc Dems advocates for just that?

    Sensible economic policies, sustainable transport (ie not as manically car centric in our cities) and left on social issues.

    Why are they only polling at 3% in that case? Is it a case of the general irish public being fools?


  • #51
    hurler32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭hurler32


    It’s clear in many rural communities traveller crime is out of control forcing normally middle of the road people to vote for Casey who many knew nothing about but are so desperate voted for him in their thousands .
    The government will have to come down hard on those travellers who are creating such mayhem or else its only a matter of time before everybody in rural Ireland takes the law into their hands . The law abiding can’t take anymore !!


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  • #52
    Dont be at yourself
    Registered Users Posts: 10,571 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    For me, it's not about left or right; Casey is another reflection of the global feeling of disenfranchisement of a large number of people with the political establishment -- the same as Trump, Brexit, Macron and even Obama were.

    With the increasing free and easy access to information, and to opinion, I think people are fed up of politicians who dance around topics or speak in platitudes. Even if people don't agree with specific messages, there's a huge admiration when these politicians simply speak their mind -- and I don't think that's without merit.


  • #53
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    naughtb4 wrote: »
    I think I am misunderstanding, are you saying personal responsibility is bad?

    You are misunderstanding but then I didn’t word my post particularly well.
    An increasing amount of people have the notion that they need take no personal responsibilty whatsoever. They see themselves as victims of circumstance and see their misfortune as being caused by others. Then there is a further group who appear to encourage and foster this notion.
    Homeless? Never worked? 38 convictions? 6 kids? Solution? Have another kid obviously!! It’s the governments fault your in this fix, you do know that?
    Living in a mobile on the side of the road with 54 other people knee deep in mud and rats? Too ill to work but still have 9 kids? Government built you a beautiful house to live in. Move in and say “thank you!”? No! Refuse to move in til they give you facilities for your pets! You’re entitled to everything you want! Don’t let the government tell you your not!

    I’m sitting here not too far from Cabra Bridge and it was -2 at 9am. All those kids are sitting in those caravans freezing their toes off because someone told their parents that they were entitled to “more” and there’s no obligation on them themselves to provide anything at all.
    It has to stop.


  • #54
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You are misunderstanding but then I didn’t word my post particularly well.
    An increasing amount of people have the notion that they need take no personal responsibilty whatsoever. They see themselves as victims of circumstance and see their misfortune as being caused by others. Then there is a further group who appear to encourage and foster this notion.
    Homeless? Never worked? 38 convictions? 6 kids? Solution? Have another kid obviously!! It’s the governments fault your in this fix, you do know that?
    Living in a mobile on the side of the road with 54 other people knee deep in mud and rats? Too ill to work but still have 9 kids? Government built you a beautiful house to live in. Move in and say “thank you!”? No! Refuse to move in til they give you facilities for your pets! You’re entitled to everything you want! Don’t let the government tell you your not!

    I’m sitting here not too far from Cabra Bridge and it was -2 at 9am. All those kids are sitting in those caravans freezing their toes off because someone told their parents that they were entitled to “more” and there’s no obligation on them themselves to provide anything at all.
    It has to stop.

    Thanks, I thought that might be it alright. We have entitlement crisis


  • #55
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,034 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    P_1 wrote: »
    Ok while we definitely don't want to copy anything that came from the Tories arent the Soc Dems advocates for just that?

    Sensible economic policies, sustainable transport (ie not as manically car centric in our cities) and left on social issues.

    Why are they only polling at 3% in that case? Is it a case of the general irish public being fools?

    To be honest I have no idea what the social dems economic viewpoints are especially with regard to welfare. I highly doubt they are as strong on welfare reform and justice as for example Renua.
    I think the soc dem party have a couple of ex labour members so welfare reform probably isn’t high on the list.


  • #56
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    tom1ie wrote: »
    To be honest I have no idea what the social dems economic viewpoints are especially with regard to welfare. I highly doubt they are as strong on welfare reform and justice as for example Renua.
    I think the soc dem party have a couple of ex labour members so welfare reform probably isn’t high on the list.

    That's fair enough.

    To me the likes of Renua are all about reaction or cure if you want a better term.

    The Soc Dems would be more about prevention.

    So if you have someone on the dole, provide the training and resources to help them get off it. It seems a better allocation of resources then throwing thousands at people and expecting that shouting at them will somehow magically get them off the dole. Or worse subcontracting it out to a fairly scummy British company to do the same.

    Short term it wouldn't provide as many instant results but longer term it would if that makes sense


  • #57
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,034 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    P_1 wrote: »
    That's fair enough.

    To me the likes of Renua are all about reaction or cure if you want a better term.

    The Soc Dems would be more about prevention.

    So if you have someone on the dole, provide the training and resources to help them get off it. It seems a better allocation of resources then throwing thousands at people and expecting that shouting at them will somehow magically get them off the dole. Or worse subcontracting it out to a fairly scummy British company to do the same.

    Short term it wouldn't provide as many instant results but longer term it would if that makes sense

    I agree regarding the outsourcing to English contractor, absolutely filthy move.
    However incresing money to welfare overall is certainly not something I’d be in favour of. We need to look at the burden on the people who work from the top and bottom.
    By this I mean taxing the banks profits for example, while at the same time sending people on long term illness benefit to independent doctors to confirm they are unable to work. This will be completely unacceptable for a lot of people but it’s whats required to have an efficient welfare system that we as a country can afford.


  • #58
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    tom1ie wrote: »
    I agree regarding the outsourcing to English contractor, absolutely filthy move.
    However incresing money to welfare overall is certainly not something I’d be in favour of. We need to look at the burden on the people who work from the top and bottom.
    By this I mean taxing the banks profits for example, while at the same time sending people on long term illness benefit to independent doctors to confirm they are unable to work. This will be completely unacceptable for a lot of people but it’s whats required to have an efficient welfare system that we as a country can afford.

    I'm not advocating increasing spending. Rather its about spending what we are currently spending competently. Were meant to be retraining people, all the likes of Springboard have done is increase the profits of private colleges. We have people being sent on nonsense courses. Sorry what use is an ECDL to someone trying to get an office job. Everyone knows how to save files and navigate windows explorer. Send them on excel courses. That's how you get work.


  • #59
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Braelyn Itchy Globe wrote: »
    I voted for Peter Casey less about his views on travelers and more about that a good vote for him might drive a discussion around social welfare and that imo we as a country are creating a system that is a long term career and allows people to have a lifestyle above some that work 40 hours plus a week. This to me leads to workers feeling undervalued and discourages people to work, negatively impacting the economy in the long term.

    Serious question for you: are you honestly under the impression that that discussion never came up before Peter Casey?

    Are you honestly under the impression that a distant second place in a presidential race is somehow going to cause a radical shift in our societal discourse?


  • #60
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,005 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Sunday Times apparently know for certain that it was Casey's comments on welfare dependency that really resonated with people, not that nasty traveler-baiting stuff.:P Which conveniently coincides with what the paper itself has been banging on about for years...


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  • #61
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,824 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    P_1 wrote: »
    We have people being sent on nonsense courses. Sorry what use is an ECDL to someone trying to get an office job. Everyone knows how to save files and navigate windows explorer. Send them on excel courses. That's how you get work.
    Having given many ECDL (and other) courses over the years, I can tell you that the standard of IT knowledge out there is quite poor. Lots of people need to know how to use Windows Explorer.
    ECDL covered an intro to Excel anyhow.


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