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EU to bring forward proposals to end unanimity on tax for May summit

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Omari Mushy Transistor


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    No it isn't. This is a fundamental, verifiable fact that you are continuing to get wrong.

    Not refrencing any specific summit, just that this a topic of upmost concern for the folks in Brussels, Davos or when/wherever else the leaders of Europe get together for a chat and talk about 'level playing fields'.
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    There is no "if". It can't

    (Currently).
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    What if they do? There is nothing stopping them doing so now, EU or otherwise. So what on earth is your point?

    Maybe they will, maybe e.g. the UK will eventually move towards 12 or 15% shortly after they reach the planned 17%. Maybe this modest move (even with a no-deal brexit) will be a significant threat to other countries as far away as Japan, who called out their movement towards a tax haven-esq status.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    (Currently).

    What argument are you trying to make here? The EU can't change Ireland's corporation tax rate. You seem to be determined to ignore this fact in favor of a fiction that it can. Why?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Omari Mushy Transistor


    What argument are you trying to make here? The EU can't change Ireland's corporation tax rate. You seem to be determined to ignore this fact in favor of a fiction that it can. Why?

    So while you're correct they can't 'force' it, they could well present it in such a way that it would become a good idea to increase it, volountary.

    As part of any future 'bargaining process' that may occur in years to come, anything may become available for discussion. Future gains may come with future compromises or concessions.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    So while you're correct they can't 'force' it, they could well present it in such a way that it would become a good idea to increase it, volountary.

    As part of any future 'bargaining process' that may occur in years to come, anything may become available for discussion. Future gains may come with future compromises or concessions.

    That's just incredibly weak scaremongering to be frank. You keep pushing this without any effort whatsoever to substantiate it.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Omari Mushy Transistor


    That's just incredibly weak scaremongering to be frank. You keep pushing this without any effort whatsoever to substantiate it.

    Or some might say it's a serious potential future issue, that should be taken seriously.

    There is an overwhelming desire from the major players in Europe for what they call a 'level playing field' in regards of corporation tax. Strong desire, is the precursor to strong action.

    In post-brexit years, ever increasing integration and reliance with the EU mainland will become ever so important. Even a non-EU UK 17% CT target, backed with generous industrial grants could be considered a risk factor.

    Of course the easy response would be dismiss any potential future economic risks and continue a heavy reliance on a low-tax service focused economy.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I would hazard a guess and say that the real concerns aren’t so much the tax rates, but the number of loop holes that companies openly use to avoid paying tax.

    If Apple had actually paid 12.5% tax in Ireland, there would be no issue, but like every other global company they exploited loopholes in the Irish and Dutch systems to save themselves billions.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Or some might say it's a serious potential future issue, that should be taken seriously.

    Some might say that, sure. But when the people saying that demonstrate a deeply-entrenched refusal to know what they're talking about, they can safely be ignored.

    You seem to think this is something we should worry about. You're failing catastrophically to make that case by refusing point-blank to even acknowledge the fundamental errors of fact you keep making.

    If you're serious about getting people to pay attention to the looming threat you keep wittering on about, start by demonstrating your ability to understand the simple basics. Because as long as you keep doom-mongering about something while being utterly wrong about the simple facts of the matter, I'm afraid you'll continue to be dismissed as an uninformed crank.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Ireland has a guarantee in protocols to the Lisbon Treaty about the European Union’s competency on tax and it would take a new treaty, which would have to be approved by (and possibly even gave a referendum in) Ireland. If the EU were to somehow just ignore those, technically speaking in Ireland they would be acting unconstitutionally as we voted to approve that treaty specifically on that basis.

    Also this talk of “extraordinary powers” is absolute nonsense, and dangerous and misleading nonsense at that. No such powers exist. All of the Commission’s powers are precisely defined in the treaties. It can’t just magic up new powers at will.

    There's nothing fluffy or vague about any of this.

    All that a commissioner making statements like that does is whip up euroscepticism. It does nothing to achieve debate on tax harmonization, rather it will just drive people into bunkers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,897 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It would require a new treaty, which in Ireland (and several other member states) would require to be approved in a referendum. It's really not a flyer. My guess would be that the Commission is bidding high with a view to settling for something much more modest.

    Does it though?
    Ireland has already ratified by referendum the amendment to the constitution that added 29.10
    10° The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012. No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under that Treaty or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by bodies competent under that Treaty from having the force of law in the State.

    and buried in the treaty
    ECONOMIC POLICY COORDINATION AND CONVERGENCE
    ARTICLE 9
    Building upon economic policy coordination, as defined in the Treaty on the Functioning of the
    European Union, the Contracting Parties undertake to work jointly towards an economic policy that
    fosters the proper functioning of the economic and monetary union and economic growth through
    enhanced convergence and competitiveness. To that end, the Contracting Parties shall take the
    necessary actions and measures in all the areas which are essential to the proper functioning of the
    euro area in pursuit of the objectives of fostering competitiveness, promoting employment,
    contributing further to the sustainability of public finances and reinforcing financial stability.

    Looks to me that we're already half committed to it and all that's needed is for the EU to decide that our corporate tax rate and "sweetheart" tax deals with the likes of Apple, Intel, Microsoft etc. are a threat to the stability of the Euro and we're up the creek with no paddle.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Looks to me that we're already half committed to it and all that's needed is for the EU to decide that our corporate tax rate and "sweetheart" tax deals with the likes of Apple, Intel, Microsoft etc. are a threat to the stability of the Euro and we're up the creek with no paddle.

    You might have the makings of a point, if not for the fact that direct taxation is not an EU competence. I could have sworn I'd mentioned that before.

    Why oh why do people insist on coming up with half-assed theories about how the EU can suddenly and magically operate outside the scope of the treaties that literally define it?


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You might have the makings of a point, if not for the fact that direct taxation is not an EU competence. I could have sworn I'd mentioned that before.

    Why oh why do people insist on coming up with half-assed theories about how the EU can suddenly and magically operate outside the scope of the treaties that literally define it?

    What I find quite terrifying is the idea that if the EU ever did try to hoard power, the people who would call them out on it have squandered their credibility on all sorts of nonsense ranging from outlandish conspiracy theories to comparisons with the Soviet Union.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    What I find quite terrifying is the idea that if the EU ever did try to hoard power, the people who would call them out on it have squandered their credibility on all sorts of nonsense ranging from outlandish conspiracy theories to comparisons with the Soviet Union.

    While I take your point, that doesn't terrify me at all, because - despite what the UK tabloids seem to have successfully taught a percentage of Irish people to believe - that's not something that the EU shows any signs of wanting to do.

    From conversations with many people in Brussels - from MEPs to Commissioners to assorted civil servants - I am completely convinced that the EU is, on balance, a force for good in the world and takes pride in that fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,897 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You might have the makings of a point, if not for the fact that direct taxation is not an EU competence. I could have sworn I'd mentioned that before.

    Why oh why do people insist on coming up with half-assed theories about how the EU can suddenly and magically operate outside the scope of the treaties that literally define it?

    Doesn't have to be direct taxation, the tax still stays in Ireland just that the tax rates and policies are harmonized to protect the Euro.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Doesn't have to be direct taxation, the tax still stays in Ireland just that the tax rates and policies are harmonized to protect the Euro.

    Once again, I have to keep repeating myself:

    Direct taxation (including corporation tax) is not an EU competence.

    Tax harmonisation has nothing to do with tax rates.

    I'm not expressing an opinion here, I'm stating facts. By continuing to ignore these facts, which are easily verified with a quick search, you're undermining whatever point it is you're trying to make.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    While I take your point, that doesn't terrify me at all, because - despite what the UK tabloids seem to have successfully taught a percentage of Irish people to believe - that's not something that the EU shows any signs of wanting to do.

    From conversations with many people in Brussels - from MEPs to Commissioners to assorted civil servants - I am completely convinced that the EU is, on balance, a force for good in the world and takes pride in that fact.

    Absolutely. I'm simply stating the liberal viewpoint that power should have checks but when some of the people who are supposed to embody said checks are dysfunctional on a satirical level, it creates room to malfeasance.

    I'm not at all worried about the EU trying to annex member state's ability to set their own corporate tax levels by the way. I just think that a functioning media is essential to a free society.

    My Mum said it best back in 2016. I told her about the referendum and she asked how I would vote. I asked her what she thought and she said remain citing that "The EU is a good thing".

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You might have the makings of a point, if not for the fact that direct taxation is not an EU competence. I could have sworn I'd mentioned that before.

    Why oh why do people insist on coming up with half-assed theories about how the EU can suddenly and magically operate outside the scope of the treaties that literally define it?

    it isn't direct taxation though is it, it is tax loopholes that make Ireland attractive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Aegir wrote: »
    it isn't direct taxation though is it, it is tax loopholes that make Ireland attractive.
    I don't think the two are separate. The EU sets customs duties, and has some competence in relation to indirect taxes, principally VAT (though it doesn't set rates). But it has no competence at all in relation to direct taxes like income tax and corporation tax, and the "loopholes" are features of Ireland's corporation tax regime. As long as the EU has no competence in relation to direct taxation, it cannot fix loopholes in the direct taxation regimes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,897 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Once again, I have to keep repeating myself:

    Direct taxation (including corporation tax) is not an EU competence.

    Tax harmonisation has nothing to do with tax rates.

    I'm not expressing an opinion here, I'm stating facts. By continuing to ignore these facts, which are easily verified with a quick search, you're undermining whatever point it is you're trying to make.

    What do you understand to be the definition of Direct Taxation, because it certainly wouldn't agree with mine.

    And how do you square the circle of two treaties being juxtaposed to each other, the latest treaty ( ratified by referendum in Ireland ) stating
    ECONOMIC POLICY COORDINATION AND CONVERGENCE
    ARTICLE 9
    Building upon economic policy coordination, as defined in the Treaty on the Functioning of the
    European Union, the Contracting Parties undertake to work jointly towards an economic policy that
    fosters the proper functioning of the economic and monetary union and economic growth through
    enhanced convergence and competitiveness. To that end, the Contracting Parties shall take the
    necessary actions and measures in all the areas which are essential to the proper functioning of the
    euro area in pursuit of the objectives of fostering competitiveness, promoting employment,
    contributing further to the sustainability of public finances and reinforcing financial stability.

    and
    Article 113
    (ex Article 93 TEC)
    The Council shall, acting unanimously in accordance with a special legislative procedure and after
    consulting the European Parliament and the Economic and Social Committee, adopt provisions for the
    harmonisation of legislation concerning turnover taxes, excise duties and other forms of indirect
    taxation to the extent that such harmonisation is necessary to ensure the establishment and the
    functioning of the internal market and to avoid distortion of competition.


    So when push comes to shove at the next Euro crisis and the rest of the EU decide that tax harmonization is the way to save the Euro, do you really think Ireland wouldn't cave and no I don't think we'd need a referendum because we already had it in 2012.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,175 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    So when push comes to shove at the next Euro crisis and the rest of the EU decide that tax harmonization is the way to save the Euro, do you really think Ireland wouldn't cave and no I don't think we'd need a referendum because we already had it in 2012.

    From what I recall, there was a fair bit of pressure (particularly Sarkozy) in the last Euro crisis when Ireland was in a very vulnerable situation and it didn't cave in. I would hope that Ireland has learned its lesson well and will never again be so vulnerable.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    What do you understand to be the definition of Direct Taxation, because it certainly wouldn't agree with mine.
    It's not a question of understanding, it's a well-understood term.
    So when push comes to shove at the next Euro crisis and the rest of the EU decide that tax harmonization is the way to save the Euro, do you really think Ireland wouldn't cave and no I don't think we'd need a referendum because we already had it in 2012.
    Tax harmonisation is something I'm broadly in favour of, but I'm not interested in discussing it with people who insist on pretending it has anything whatsoever to do with tax rates.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    To that end, the Contracting Parties shall take the
    necessary actions and measures in all the areas which are essential to the proper functioning of the
    euro area in pursuit of the objectives of fostering competitiveness, promoting employment,
    contributing further to the sustainability of public finances and reinforcing financial stability.

    This should go without saying but this does not give anyone carte blanche to impose whatever rules they so feel that are not within their remit and which they have absolutely no authority to control. If the EU for some bizarre reason decided the stability of the euro relied on murdering the first born of every child born in each member state, this would not, in fact, cover them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Doesn't have to be direct taxation, the tax still stays in Ireland just that the tax rates and policies are harmonized to protect the Euro.
    It's literally the exact opposite of this - the tax stays in the country in which it was accrued and charged at the rate of that individual Member State.

    The fact that people aren't grasping this after it has been explained ad nauseam is baffling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't think the two are separate. The EU sets customs duties, and has some competence in relation to indirect taxes, principally VAT (though it doesn't set rates). But it has no competence at all in relation to direct taxes like income tax and corporation tax, and the "loopholes" are features of Ireland's corporation tax regime. As long as the EU has no competence in relation to direct taxation, it cannot fix loopholes in the direct taxation regimes.

    The EU will also find it very difficult to close all loopholes by themselves - international tax cooperation is necessary to close all loopholes, as there is nothing inherently unlawful about tax planning as it currently stands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The EU will also find it very difficult to close all loopholes by themselves - international tax cooperation is necessary to close all loopholes, as there is nothing inherently unlawful about tax planning as it currently stands.
    Yes, absolutely. The only thing that's going to be effective here is concerted action involving co-operative acting between a critical mass of states. But the EU and the US, between them, would be that critical mass all on their own. And there's already a dialogue under way about what that co-operative action should be, and how to bring it about. Don't expect any early conclusion - this will take years, and may make very limited progress until there is a adult in the White House again. Still, it is very relevant to Ireland's interests, and we very much want to be part of that dialogue, and seeking to influence it.


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